Original Sin

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lost_Sheep
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Lost_Sheep

Guest
We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.

Why are we held accountable for something someone did 1000s of years ago?
 
Because Original is a genetic and spiritual trait that is passed on to us. Through Baptism our soul is made clean and one with Christ but our body still has the broken genetic state of Original Sin. When we are resurrected in our bodie on the last day and the final judgement has passed this broken genetic sturcture will be fixed.
 
Maybe it will help you to think of it more of being born deformed without the original grace than being accountable for something someone else did. Is cuz Adam and Eve were the first ones they affected/deformed humanity as a consequence, the fall from grace.

But… Oh happy fault! As we say in the Easter vigil mass, cuz it’s for this that our Saviour Jesus Christ came into the world to redeem us!
 
Maybe it will help you to think of it more of being born deformed without the original grace than being accountable for something someone else did. Is cuz Adam and Eve were the first ones they affected/deformed humanity as a consequence, the fall from grace.

But… Oh happy fault! As we say in the Easter vigil mass, cuz it’s for this that our Saviour Jesus Christ came into the world to redeem us!
I can’t come up with a charitable way to condemn whoever came up with this “brilliant” idea. Probably someone awaiting canonization…
 
We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.

Why are we held accountable for something someone did ONCE/ONE SOLITARY TIME 1000s of years ago?
God lies in details, or is it the Devil?
 
We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.

Why are we held accountable for something someone did 1000s of years ago?
Adam and Eve are unique in that the entire human race is descended from them. When they committed that original sin, it didn’t just affect them, it affected human nature. That nature became clouded and disordered with the loss of original holiness.

This may not seem “fair” at cursory glance, but I am grateful that this is the case. If we were not all implicated in Adam’s sin, then neither could we be redeemed by Christ’s Paschal Mystery. It is because of our unity in the one human family that both arepossible.
 
Adam and Eve are unique in that the entire human race is descended from them. When they committed that original sin, it didn’t just affect them, it affected human nature. That nature became clouded and disordered with the loss of original holiness.

This may not seem “fair” at cursory glance, but I am grateful that this is the case. ** If we were not all implicated in Adam’s sin, then neither could we be redeemed by Christ’s Paschal Mystery**. It is because of our unity in the one human family that both are possible.
A state of perfect harmony with oneself, one’s companion and intimacy and closeness with God, a few hundred years of natural happiness on earth followed by an eternity with God, God’s plan B is lightyears away from the original plan. You would have been introduced to Jesus on the other side anyhow. I think it’s insensitive on your part to leave out the huge amount of suffering Adam’s choice brought about (rape, murder, famine, drought, war, depression, mental and psychological affections, incest, occultism, irreligion, alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide, murder, enmity with God, etc.), you think they’re a small price to pay for the weekly Eucharist?
 
We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.

Why are we held accountable for something someone did 1000s of years ago?
May I ask you what that something was? And who that someone was?

I hear so many “catholic” stories, I can no longer assume that I know that something and someone. Thus, I am prevented from answering questions.

Is it important for our spirituality to know the truth?
 
Original sin was disobedience, and we still disobey. Do you obey every superior? or, every Law? do you obey God in everything? if not then you have the seed of the original sin in you like the rest of us. The Virgin Mary and Jesus where obedient, Jesus even unto death. Therefor they did not had the seed of original sin.
 
We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.

Why are we held accountable for something someone did 1000s of years ago?
When we talk about Original Sin, we are referring to the natural effects of the first sin, the sin of Adam and Eve. Think of a father who gambles all his family’s money away. It’s not just him who is affected. He is guilty of the sin, but his family is affected by his sin, and possibly generations down the line as well. Think of lower class Americans. Most of them are likely in that situation because their parents didn’t have enough money to give them a better education and so they couldn’t get a good enough paying job. Similarly, we feel the effects of the first sin, but not the guilt.
 
Adam and Eve are unique in that the entire human race is descended from them. When they committed that original sin, it didn’t just affect them, it affected human nature. That nature became clouded and disordered with the loss of original holiness.

This may not seem “fair” at cursory glance, but I am grateful that this is the case. If we were not all implicated in Adam’s sin, then neither could we be redeemed by Christ’s Paschal Mystery. It is because of our unity in the one human family that both arepossible.
Though I like this creation story, I don’t believe that humans lost an original holiness. If anything, humans are becoming more holy as time moves forward. The story of Adam and Eve is an attempt to explain why humans have drives and are born with the capacity to do bad things to each other. The point of the story is that we, like most mammalian species, are born with these compulsions, which I think is accurate. It is also accurate to say that we are born with the capacity for blindness toward others when we are overcome with resentment or desire. Also, unlike other animals, we are born with the compulsion to judge, “to know good from evil”. I am so amazed that the author(s) focused in on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, because it appears that the compulsion to blame and punish is unique to our species.

So, who do we blame for “original sin”, our resented compulsions and capacities to do evil, our capacity for blindness. Surely, we think, these aspects of our nature do not come from God… but do they not?

Part of our redemption by Christ is knowing that God forgives us unconditionally. Jesus encourages us to forgive everyone, even our enemies. It follows that if our nature is our enemy, we are to forgive our nature.

When we forgive our nature, we are forgiving God for giving us all of our resented desires and compulsions. When we do this, we no longer condemn our nature, but instead see it as a gift from God. This, again, is part of our redemption.

Are there aspects of the ego that anyone reading this post has “forgiven”, or come to accept as a functional part of human nature? This is actually an Augustinian exercise in self-awareness.
 
Though I like this creation story, I don’t believe that humans lost an original holiness.
The Catholic teaching is that the original holiness of Adam and Eve is the Sanctifying Grace which is the presence of God within humans. This grace of God’s presence was lost when Adam removed himself from God’s friendship. In order for Adam to live in a friendship relationship with God, he had to live in free submission to God. Adam chose disobedience.

God called Adam, just as He calls us, to share in His divine life both on earth and in eternal joy in heaven. Like us, Adam was created with a rational spiritual soul, including the will. As the first human, Adam had a deep relationship with God from the beginning. That relationship was shattered when Adam scorned his Creator.
The story of Adam and Eve is an attempt to explain why humans have drives and are born with the capacity to do bad things to each other.
Basic, fundamental Catholic doctrines flow from the life experiences of Adam. Main Catholic doctrines are the reality of Original Sin and the necessity for redemption by the Divine Jesus Christ.
The point of the story is that we, like most mammalian species, are born with these compulsions, which I think is accurate.
Unlike other species, Adam, like us, has an unique nature which is an unification of both the material world and the spiritual world. This basic nature did not essentially change when Adam chose himself against God, against the requirement of his creature status, and therefore against his own good. This basic nature was not totally corrupted by Original Sin; instead it was wounded in its natural powers. Instead of being born with “compulsions”, it is more accurate to say that our nature is “inclined” to sin. In other words sin looks “gooder”.😉

With the reality of original holiness (relationship with God) lost because Adam chose to break humanity’s relationship with divinity, there is the reality of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Because of the divinity of Jesus Christ, reparation for the disobedience of Adam was made through Jesus’ obedience on the Cross. Baptism, which imparts the life of Christ’s sanctifying grace, erases the contracted state of Original Sin and restores relationship with God.

The result of the Sacraments of Baptism and Reconciliation is that we are in the spiritual state of holiness.
 
A state of perfect harmony with oneself, one’s companion and intimacy and closeness with God, a few hundred years of natural happiness on earth followed by an eternity with God, God’s plan B is lightyears away from the original plan. You would have been introduced to Jesus on the other side anyhow. I think it’s insensitive on your part to leave out the huge amount of suffering Adam’s choice brought about (rape, murder, famine, drought, war, depression, mental and psychological affections, incest, occultism, irreligion, alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide, murder, enmity with God, etc.), you think they’re a small price to pay for the weekly Eucharist?
The weekly Eucharist offers communion with the One Thing that definitively opposes sin, that offers love, hope, forgiveness, eternal happiness to those who likewise turn from the sin/disobedience that Adam chose-as a consequence of turning from that sin and towards love. And communion will be fully consummated in the next life when our hope is completely confirmed and realized.
 
Though I like this creation story, I don’t believe that humans lost an original holiness. If anything, humans are becoming more holy as time moves forward. The story of Adam and Eve is an attempt to explain why humans have drives and are born with the capacity to do bad things to each other. The point of the story is that we, like most mammalian species, are born with these compulsions, which I think is accurate. It is also accurate to say that we are born with the capacity for blindness toward others when we are overcome with resentment or desire. Also, unlike other animals, we are born with the compulsion to judge, “to know good from evil”. I am so amazed that the author(s) focused in on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, because it appears that the compulsion to blame and punish is unique to our species.

So, who do we blame for “original sin”, our resented compulsions and capacities to do evil, our capacity for blindness. Surely, we think, these aspects of our nature do not come from God… but do they not?

Part of our redemption by Christ is knowing that God forgives us unconditionally. Jesus encourages us to forgive everyone, even our enemies. It follows that if our nature is our enemy, we are to forgive our nature.

When we forgive our nature, we are forgiving God for giving us all of our resented desires and compulsions. When we do this, we no longer condemn our nature, but instead see it as a gift from God. This, again, is part of our redemption.

Are there aspects of the ego that anyone reading this post has “forgiven”, or come to accept as a functional part of human nature? This is actually an Augustinian exercise in self-awareness.
The doctrine of Original Sin presents an opposite scenario to yours: it asserts that all sin is an abuse of free will, that man was meant to have control over all his appetites, that selfishness, lack of love was never meant to reign in our world, but the teaching also maintains that man can simply not achieve this kind of moral integrity and order/harmony *without communion with God. * That’s the essence of the New Covenant and that’s the simple lesson we’re here to learn-and that Adam apparently didn’t accept.

But our faith also teaches that God is patient and kind, and that He made His universe in a “state of journeying” towards perfection. He was even willing to suffer the consequences of sin, of the imperfection that results from opposition to His will, by coming here and experiencing the suffering and death first hand that we all inevitably experience, even to a much greater extent than most of us will, in order to demonstrate His love and solidarity with the human race, opposing sin with love, it’s opposite counterpart, while still not* forcing *any of us to embrace this virtue, still allowing us the freedom that so often opposes it, or that can, alternatively, choose it. And this is His goal for humankind: to be a people who freely choose the Good, to come to freely love as He does.
 
Though I like this creation story, I don’t believe that humans lost an original holiness. If anything, humans are becoming more holy as time moves forward. The story of Adam and Eve is an attempt to explain why humans have drives and are born with the capacity to do bad things to each other. The point of the story is that we, like most mammalian species, are born with these compulsions, which I think is accurate. It is also accurate to say that we are born with the capacity for blindness toward others when we are overcome with resentment or desire. Also, unlike other animals, we are born with the compulsion to judge, “to know good from evil”. I am so amazed that the author(s) focused in on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, because it appears that the compulsion to blame and punish is unique to our species.

So, who do we blame for “original sin”, our resented compulsions and capacities to do evil, our capacity for blindness. Surely, we think, these aspects of our nature do not come from God… but do they not?

Part of our redemption by Christ is knowing that God forgives us unconditionally. Jesus encourages us to forgive everyone, even our enemies. It follows that if our nature is our enemy, we are to forgive our nature.

When we forgive our nature, we are forgiving God for giving us all of our resented desires and compulsions. When we do this, we no longer condemn our nature, but instead see it as a gift from God. This, again, is part of our redemption.

Are there aspects of the ego that anyone reading this post has “forgiven”, or come to accept as a functional part of human nature? This is actually an Augustinian exercise in self-awareness.
I recommend reading the Catechism’s excellent section on Original Sin:

CCC 396-421

The preceding pargraphs starting at CCC 355 set the stage by talking of the pre-Fall state, which includes original holiness.
 
We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.
They ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

We are not able to discern good and evil on our own, without God’s help.
 
The Catholic teaching is that the original holiness of Adam and Eve is the Sanctifying Grace which is the presence of God within humans. This grace of God’s presence was lost when Adam removed himself from God’s friendship. In order for Adam to live in a friendship relationship with God, he had to live in free submission to God. Adam chose disobedience.
The problem here is that God created a person with free will, and then punished him for exercising it? God rejoices in our individual autonomy, if He wished to have puppets, then he could have made all He wanted. In fact, He did. Most species are essentially puppets of their God-given instincts.

The God of Forgiveness would certainly choose to forgive Adam for disobeying, not punish him. This boils down to what we see as the characteristics of God Himself. I don’t see God as the punishing type. I will grant you that life has its own consequences, and a person may perceive that God is punishing them. How many times does God forgive disobedience? Well, I can forgive people many, many times, and God is certainly more merciful and patient than I am.
God called Adam, just as He calls us, to share in His divine life both on earth and in eternal joy in heaven. Like us, Adam was created with a rational spiritual soul, including the will. As the first human, Adam had a deep relationship with God from the beginning. That relationship was shattered when Adam scorned his Creator.
I don’t believe that Adam was all-knowing. I don’t believe that our ancestors necessarily had a more “deep” relationship with God than any of our canonized saints. As I look at the trends over the ages, we are becoming more aware of our creator, not less. As far as “scorning our creator” goes, how often do we complain about our lives, or are impatient with our tasks? When we do such, we essentially scorn our creator, and the natural consequence is our own misery. It isn’t God punishing us, though, for our complaint and impatience. To me, the creation story is metaphorical, but reflects the notion of a punishing God. It is not God who punishes, but we are punished by our own consciences. What I am saying is that there is room in our orthodoxy for different approaches.
Basic, fundamental Catholic doctrines flow from the life experiences of Adam. Main Catholic doctrines are the reality of Original Sin and the necessity for redemption by the Divine Jesus Christ.

Unlike other species, Adam, like us, has an unique nature which is an unification of both the material world and the spiritual world. This basic nature did not essentially change when Adam chose himself against God, against the requirement of his creature status, and therefore against his own good. This basic nature was not totally corrupted by Original Sin; instead it was wounded in its natural powers. Instead of being born with “compulsions”, it is more accurate to say that our nature is “inclined” to sin. In other words sin looks “gooder”.😉
We are definitely on the same page about the necessity for redemption. I disagree, however, with the use of the word “inclined”. People always intend to do something positive, but our positive intent is filtered through our blindness, our misperception, our lack of awareness. The crowd who crucified Jesus meant well, but they were blind to His humanity - and His divinity.
With the reality of original holiness (relationship with God) lost because Adam chose to break humanity’s relationship with divinity, there is the reality of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Because of the divinity of Jesus Christ, reparation for the disobedience of Adam was made through Jesus’ obedience on the Cross. Baptism, which imparts the life of Christ’s sanctifying grace, erases the contracted state of Original Sin and restores relationship with God.

The result of the Sacraments of Baptism and Reconciliation is that we are in the spiritual state of holiness.
Like I have said before, God created us with the capacity for disobedience. He doesn’t punish us for being disobedient, He forgives us. Jesus came to tell us that. Lack of repentance carries its own natural consequence. God forgives us because He loves us and we do not know what we are doing. Adam did not know what he was doing.

Does the Church have room for those of us who believe in a God who never resents us, who understands and unconditionally forgives our every move?

Yes. The story of Adam reflects a less evolved view of our creator. We have learned a lot since then.
 
The doctrine of Original Sin presents an opposite scenario to yours: it asserts that all sin is an abuse of free will, that man was meant to have control over all his appetites, that selfishness, lack of love was never meant to reign in our world, but the teaching also maintains that man can simply not achieve this kind of moral integrity and order/harmony *without communion with God. * That’s the essence of the New Covenant and that’s the simple lesson we’re here to learn-and that Adam apparently didn’t accept.
I can’t disagree with anything you said there, and I don’t see that it conflicts with what I stated. I just don’t believe that man’s appetites are a punishment, nor that God did not immediately forgive Adam’s disobedience, if such a story actually happened. The story attempts to explain the human condition. We have better explanations now.
But our faith also teaches that God is patient and kind, and that He made His universe in a “state of journeying” towards perfection. He was even willing to suffer the consequences of sin, of the imperfection that results from opposition to His will, by coming here and experiencing the suffering and death first hand that we all inevitably experience, even to a much greater extent than most of us will, in order to demonstrate His love and solidarity with the human race, opposing sin with love, it’s opposite counterpart, while still not* forcing *any of us to embrace this virtue, still allowing us the freedom that so often opposes it, or that can, alternatively, choose it. And this is His goal for humankind: to be a people who freely choose the Good, to come to freely love as He does.
Exactly. Well stated. And if God is seen as a punishing god, then we do not have the freedom to choose; instead, we have coercion. Do you see what I am saying?
 
… the pre-Fall state, which includes original holiness.
The CCC says that the state of original holiness (was) to share in the divine life. We are still there. The kingdom of God is on Earth too. We have the free will to make it so, but only with God’s help.

We were created in God’s image, and we are still very much such creations. God created us as is, but ignorant. We have to get to know Him, and Jesus shows us.

Can you give an example of one of our “original sins”, that is, the innate compulsions we are born with and naturally resent? From there, I can explain what I am talking about.
 
Can you give an example of one of our “original sins”, that is, the innate compulsions we are born with and naturally resent? From there, I can explain what I am talking about.
In the Catholic Church, there is only one “Original Sin.” This is the watershed between Adam’s pre-Fall condition and Adam’s post-Fall condition.

I do recognize the secular view of no Original Sin and the bunch of innate compulsions which bypass some basic teachings on human nature and its spirituality. Spirituality can be seen in many ways. One of these numerous ways is that spirituality is based on our individual relationship with our Creator. Since there is an explanation for our relationship with our Creator on every street corner, my suggestion is to stick with the Catholic Church, participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, reception of the appropriate Sacraments, and a daily prayer life…along with acts of love toward others.

By the way,
what you are talking about – is that a result from the early days of Matthew Fox? I never got past his original book titles; consequently, the only thing I remember is his objection to the Catholic doctrines of Original Sin. However, objections to Original Sin have been around for centuries. And still the Catholic Church stands strong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top