Original Sin

[simpleas]

Big error at end of post 1061



The editing time expired as I was inserting a correction in the last sentence.

The last sentence should have read – Like the petition to God, it recognizes the powr of Satan and his kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of God.

Maybe that was a sign that I should add another thought to post 1061.

It looks like this prayer said during the ceremony accompanying the Sacrament of Baptism –
Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord.
– when it prays for freedom from original sin – is like CCC, 404 -405 which assures us that the transmission of the contracted state of Original Sin has been erased by Baptism. From that point, we need to call on the graces of Baptism in our daily lives as adults. Yes, absolutely. Baptism makes us the temple of God’s glory via Sanctifying Grace. This gift, of sharing in the divine life of the Trinity, continues the work of making us Christlike. Not only that, but being in the state of Sanctifying Grace, we can receive the Holy Eucharist. We need the Real Presence of Jesus so that we can continue in our spiritual battle against the limited power of “the evil one.”

While the state of Original Sin has been removed, the consequences for our human nature persist. Our wounded human nature needs the Sacraments of the Catholic Church in order to live our spirituality.

Properly understood, the doctrines surrounding Original Sin can lead us to eternal joy in the Presence of God as He is in heaven.

Thanks Grannymh,

Your posts are always imformative. Not sure how we ended up having the prayer of exorism explained when it is used at baptism for the removal of O.S. Which was what I was referring to and not a prayer for the exorism of satan.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks Grannymh,

Your posts are always imformative. Not sure how we ended up having the prayer of exorism explained when it is used at baptism for the removal of O.S. Which was what I was referring to and not a prayer for the exorism of satan.

:banghead:

 

[grannymh]

Thanks Grannymh,

Your posts are always imformative. Not sure how we ended up having the prayer of exorism explained when it is used at baptism for the removal of O.S. Which was what I was referring to and not a prayer for the exorism of satan.

I put the above in bold because it is not a Catholic teaching.

For Readers Information

In the Catholic Church, any kind of prayer of exorcism is not, I repeat not, used for the removal of the contracted state of Original Sin.

In the Catholic Church, it is the Sacrament of Baptism which erases the contracted state of Original Sin. The Catholic Sacrament of Baptism consists of pouring water on the person’s head or immersion at the same time pronouncing these words: [name of the person] “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28: 19) It is that simple.

Other prayers and practices are simply other prayers and practices which do not have the power to remove Original Sin.

 

[simpleas]

I put the above in bold because it is not a Catholic teaching.

For Readers Information

In the Catholic Church, any kind of prayer of exorcism is not, I repeat not, used for the removal of the contracted state of Original Sin.

In the Catholic Church, it is the Sacrament of Baptism which erases the contracted state of Original Sin. The Catholic Sacrament of Baptism consists of pouring water on the person’s head or immersion at the same time pronouncing these words: [name of the person] “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28: 19) It is that simple.

Other prayers and practices are simply other prayers and practices which do not have the power to remove Original Sin.

So this would be wrong?

newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm Scroll down to Baptismal exorcism.

In any case, my question on post 1054 was not address.

 

[grannymh]

So this would be wrong?

newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm Scroll down to Baptismal exorcism.

I do not mean to be rude. What is most important is that every word in the opening sentence should be read. I put the necessary word in red.

Baptismal exorcism

At an early age the practice was introduced into the Church of exorcising catechumens as a preparation for the Sacrament of Baptism

 

[simpleas]

I do not mean to be rude. What is most important is that every word in the opening sentence should be read. I put the necessary word in red.

Baptismal exorcism

At an early age the practice was introduced into the Church of exorcising catechumens as a preparation for the Sacrament of Baptism

So would the last line :

*Most of these ancient ceremonies have been retained by the Church to this day in her rite for solemn baptism. *

Anyway I have come across Baptism rites of the early church which seem to be actual exorcisms of both adults and children…not for people who were possessed…just being baptised.

Since the O.P asked why are we held accountable for O.S, this is what I am rediscovering, I don’t (as many of us won’t) remember my baptism. I have heard some while at mass, and non ever sound like an exorism. (not that i’d know what one sounds like, only movie stuff)

But it sounds like a sort of exorism as the priest asks for God to free the person from O.S. Which is one of the main reasons for Baptism. What I need to answer myself, why when Christ became the new Adam, were all not freed from O.S. So when an person is Baptised there would be no need to ask to be freed from O.S anymore, we would be blessed with the holy spirit and brought into the light of Gods family.

 

[grannymh]

So would the last line :

*Most of these ancient ceremonies have been retained by the Church to this day in her rite for solemn baptism. *

In many geographical areas, maybe not yours, it is proper to refer to the rite for solemn baptism in the context of this definition for the word rite:
“a prescribed form or manner governing the words or actions for a ceremony.” and “the ceremonial practices of a church or group of churches.” (Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition)
In many geographical areas, the ceremony for the Sacrament of Baptism includes various prayers and practices in addition to the actual real Sacrament of Baptism. Thus, in many geographical areas, maybe not yours, the whole shebang may be called a rite.

Here is the link to post 1064 which provides the actual form for the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11615510&postcount=1064

Anyway I have come across Baptism rites of the early church which seem to be actual exorcisms of both adults and children…not for people who were possessed…just being baptised.

Since the O.P asked why are we held accountable for O.S, this is what I am rediscovering, I don’t (as many of us won’t) remember my baptism. I have heard some while at mass, and non ever sound like an exorism. (not that i’d know what one sounds like, only movie stuff)

But it sounds like a sort of exorism as the priest asks for God to free the person from O.S. Which is one of the main reasons for Baptism. What I need to answer myself, why when Christ became the new Adam, were all not freed from O.S. So when an person is Baptised there would be no need to ask to be freed from O.S anymore, we would be blessed with the holy spirit and brought into the light of Gods family.

In my humble opinion…

What is being described sounds like some Christian traditions which hold that the New Adam was all that was necessary because Original Sin did not exist. It also sounds like there may be a touch of very early Pentecostalism.

There have been a variety of answers to questions about Catholic Original Sin teachings in posts. If these are not satisfactory, then the suggestion is to post the “questions” in a new thread in the Apologetics Forum.

 

[vames]

Anyway I have come across Baptism rites of the early church which seem to be actual exorcisms of both adults and children…not for people who were possessed…just being baptised.

You may remember that one early theory of atonement was that Jesus ransomed us from the captivity of the devil. The association between exorcism (of the catechumen) and baptism (of the freshly exorcized catechumen) is a trace of this theory; another explanation is that in the early Church, when pagans were converted/baptized, it was felt that their earlier allegiances to pagan idols were, in fact, allegiances to demons that had to be exorcized.

Nowadays, some Traditionalists complain that the Church “dumbed down” the new rite of Baptism precisely because it doesn’t include any old, direct exorcism formulas like “Depart from him/her, unclean spirit”, although the Church was obviously right to change the rite: what parent actually believes that a newborn has to be treated like he or she were possessed? (although in some areas of Europe, reminiscences of such beliefs are attested by folktales or ancient superstitions that speak of “the smell of the unbaptized” - the devil was thought to have an unpleasant smell - or by the existence of “the devil’s door” in some old churches). But the CCC attributes a rather symbolical value to the exorcism pronounced over the catechumen:

1237 Since Baptism signifies liberation from sin and from its instigator the devil, one or more exorcisms are pronounced over the candidate. The celebrant then anoints him with the oil of catechumens, or lays his hands on him, and he explicitly renounces Satan. Thus prepared, he is able to confess the faith of the Church, to which he will be “entrusted” by Baptism.

 

[grannymh]

For those sincere people who are curious about the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism.

You need not be concerned about all the previous posts, including mine, about this or that prayer, this or that preparation, this or that practice, etc. Simply pay attention to the real Person Who gave all of us the Sacrament of Baptism.
Here are His words:
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations,** baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit**.” (Matthew 28: 19)
The Sacrament of Baptism is that simple.

The Catholic Sacrament of Baptism consists of pouring water on the person’s head or immersion at the same time pronouncing these words:** [name of the person] “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” **

It is that simple!

 

[simpleas]

In many geographical areas, maybe not yours, it is proper to refer to the rite for solemn baptism in the context of this definition for the word rite:
“a prescribed form or manner governing the words or actions for a ceremony.” and “the ceremonial practices of a church or group of churches.” (Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition)
In many geographical areas, the ceremony for the Sacrament of Baptism includes various prayers and practices in addition to the actual real Sacrament of Baptism. Thus, in many geographical areas, maybe not yours, the whole shebang may be called a rite.

Here is the link to post 1064 which provides the actual form for the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11615510&postcount=1064

In my humble opinion…

What is being described sounds like some Christian traditions which hold that the New Adam was all that was necessary because Original Sin did not exist. It also sounds like there may be a touch of very early Pentecostalism.

There have been a variety of answers to questions about Catholic Original Sin teachings in posts. If these are not satisfactory, then the suggestion is to post the “questions” in a new thread in the Apologetics Forum.

The question was actually way back in post 1048… regarding the CCC.

But I agree, maybe a new thread might help with an answer.
Not sure how some people can think that O.S did not exist, but believe in the new Adam…
So i’m thinking and questioning like a Pentecostal? No idea what they believe, i’ll have to look it up!

Thanks

 

[simpleas]

You may remember that one early theory of atonement was that Jesus ransomed us from the captivity of the devil. The association between exorcism (of the catechumen) and baptism (of the freshly exorcized catechumen) is a trace of this theory; another explanation is that in the early Church, when pagans were converted/baptized, it was felt that their earlier allegiances to pagan idols were, in fact, allegiances to demons that had to be exorcized.

Nowadays, some Traditionalists complain that the Church “dumbed down” the new rite of Baptism precisely because it doesn’t include any old, direct exorcism formulas like “Depart from him/her, unclean spirit”, although the Church was obviously right to change the rite: what parent actually believes that a newborn has to be treated like he or she were possessed? (although in some areas of Europe, reminiscences of such beliefs are attested by folktales or ancient superstitions that speak of “the smell of the unbaptized” - the devil was thought to have an unpleasant smell - or by the existence of “the devil’s door” in some old churches). But the CCC attributes a rather symbolical value to the exorcism pronounced over the catechumen:

Yes it was on Fr. Peter Carota website that I saw what rite used to be used, and that some people may still want it for their child or themselves. Personally I am grateful for the baptism rite that we now use.