Original Sin

[DCD]

What is The Church’s teaching on John the Baptist and Original Sin?

Regards,
David

 

[thistle]

What is The Church’s teaching on John the Baptist and Original Sin?

Regards,
David

I think its that he was conceived in original sin but born free from original sin.

 

[LilyM]

I think its that he was conceived in original sin but born free from original sin.

His leaping in Elizabeth’s womb as she was filled with the Holy Spirit (and by implication himself as well) would seem to be the moment - his equivalent of what happens to us at baptism.

 

[Clovis]

Few are aware of this, but Samuel Beckett in his play ‘Endgame’ tries to focus down original sin as the mystery of god itself. I couldn’t even begin to explain to someone how to go about and discover what I have, and yet I still know so little. You would need to have an intense knowledge of Revelations, focusing on the sweet and bitter book, and symmetrical and non-bias usage of its numbers and symbols.

 

[thistle]

Few are aware of this, but Samuel Beckett in his play ‘Endgame’ tries to focus down original sin as the mystery of god itself. I couldn’t even begin to explain to someone how to go about and discover what I have, and yet I still know so little. You would need to have an intense knowledge of Revelations, focusing on the sweet and bitter book, and symmetrical and non-bias usage of its numbers and symbols.

The thread is simply what is the Church’s teaching on John The Baptist and original sin.

As for original sin itself you only need to go to the CCC to be informed.
I certainly do not believe an intense knowledge of the book of Revelations is required to know what original sin is.
Below is only one para from the CCC but there are several sections on it which explain it in a clear way.

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”. Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action and morals.

 

[Clovis]

The thread is simply what is the Church’s teaching on John The Baptist and original sin.

As for original sin itself you only need to go to the CCC to be informed.
I certainly do not believe an intense knowledge of the book of Revelations is required to know what original sin is.
Below is only one para from the CCC but there are several sections on it which explain it in a clear way.

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”. Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action and morals.

Excuse me for my ignorance. Samuel Beckett implies in the play ‘Endgame’; Hamm, a character who has a head injury, only at the end of the play to find out that his father had hit him on the head as a child. (Hamm - “The end is in the beginning, and yet you go on.”) It also hints that Clov, another character, was sexually abuse as a child by a parent. All leading up to Christ quote -“Children will rise against their parents and put them to death.” The play says that adults will become aware of memories from their childhood which causes pain and grief; As Christ said - “in the mouths of babes, but kept from wise and prudent men.”

 

[thistle]

Excuse me for my ignorance. Samuel Beckett implies in the play ‘Endgame’; Hamm, a character who has a head injury, only at the end of the play to find out that his father had hit him on the head as a child. (Hamm - “The end is in the beginning, and yet you go on.”) It also hints that Clov, another character, was sexually abuse as a child by a parent. All leading up to Christ quote -“Children will rise against their parents and put them to death.” The play says that adults will become aware of memories from their childhood which causes pain and grief; As Christ said - “in the mouths of babes, but kept from wise and prudent men.”

Sorry but I’m still trying to understand what Samuel beckett wrote has to do with John The Baptist and also what a fiction writer has to do with original sin!

 

[inchrist101]

I can never understand why Catholics believe anyone lived their life without sin including Mary and/or John the Baptist. As Romans 3 verse 23 states we all have sinned and fall short. That is the importance of believing in Jesus. There is no biblical support for Mary or anyone living a life without sin. Paul tells us that the only person who walked the face of this earth without sinning is Jesus. It doesn’t matter what any Pope states. Mary and John the Baptist both needed Jesus for salvation.

Romans 5 12 also confirms this. Sin came into the world from Adam and therefore sin and death spread to all men. It doesn’t state with the exception of Mary and John the Baptist or any person.

 

[davidv]

I can never understand why Catholics believe anyone lived their life without sin including Mary and/or John the Baptist. As Romans 3 verse 23 states we all have sinned and fall short. That is the importance of believing in Jesus. There is no biblical support for Mary or anyone living a life without sin. Paul tells us that the only person who walked the face of this earth without sinning is Jesus. It doesn’t matter what any Pope states. Mary and John the Baptist both needed Jesus for salvation.

Romans 5 12 also confirms this. Sin came into the world from Adam and therefore sin and death spread to all men. It doesn’t state with the exception of Mary and John the Baptist or any person.

I am sorry you cannot understand it. But, many brilliant minds have examined it and pondered it and it remains a clear teaching of the Church.

 

[DCD]

I can never understand why Catholics believe anyone lived their life without sin including Mary and/or John the Baptist. As Romans 3 verse 23 states we all have sinned and fall short. That is the importance of believing in Jesus. There is no biblical support for Mary or anyone living a life without sin. Paul tells us that the only person who walked the face of this earth without sinning is Jesus. It doesn’t matter what any Pope states. Mary and John the Baptist both needed Jesus for salvation.

Romans 5 12 also confirms this. Sin came into the world from Adam and therefore sin and death spread to all men. It doesn’t state with the exception of Mary and John the Baptist or any person.

Perhaps you cannot understand because you are outside The Church. The bible is not read in a vaccum. What is even more difficult to understand, is no one held the protestant view of The Blessed Virgin Mary having sinned until the Reformation and most of the “heroes” of the Reformation did not hold this rather new protestant view.

Pax Christi
David

 

[Clovis]

Sorry but I’m still trying to understand what Samuel beckett wrote has to do with John The Baptist and also what a fiction writer has to do with original sin!

It has volumes more to do with it than you currently know!

 

[thistle]

It has volumes more to do with it than you currently know!

Okay then tell me one thing of relevance between John The Baptist and Samuel Beckett.

 

[Clovis]

Lucky’s Dancing in ‘Waiting for Godot’ is an extreme common thread between Salome’s dance and its unfortunate side-effects, as Pozzo puts it, “Dancing before Thinking”. But if I were to explain ‘Waiting for Godot’, you still wouldn’t believe anything I have to say, so why make any further comments?

 

[thistle]

Lucky’s Dancing in ‘Waiting for Godot’ is an extreme common thread between Salome’s dance and its unfortunate side-effects, as Pozzo puts it, “Dancing before Thinking”. But if I were to explain ‘Waiting for Godot’, you still wouldn’t believe anything I have to say, so why make any further comments?

There are other posters in this thread also eagerly waiting for you to connect John the Baptist to Samuel Beckett!

 

[Clovis]

OK! OK! I make an attempt at explaining something that is quite difficult to explain, but it will take quite a few words.

Beckett appeared in the theater of the absurd and grew world fame with his play ‘Waiting for Godot’. Many of his existential and intellectual friends thought it was an attack on Christianity, but in reality it is a ‘darkness was on the face of the deep’ world that no one could comprehend as its day had not, and still hasn’t come. Beckett invented the theatrical form called the Tragicomedy. He used this, underlining to refer to (sweet = comedy) and (bitter = tragedy). Everyone of the characters in Beckett’s prose and plays have an intense knowledge of Religious, particularly Catholic perceptions, and their sufferings are so tremendous as to speak more distinctly of ‘darkness on the face of the deep’. Beckett theorized that the two witnesses will be perceived as the two beasts by those with his mark, as Daniel only mentions one period of 42 months. And as far as your Needing endlessly dogmatic link ‘Saint John: The Baptist’ with Original sin, because of the endless scholarly pursuits of the Catholic Church have yielded an approximation and spiritual definition, with all my love for the Church’s achievements, as Alfred Schnittke the famous Composer of Russia and devoted Catholic new, within the mystery of original sin is the mystery of God himself. Samuel = God’s venom

 

[inchrist101]

Perhaps you cannot understand because you are outside The Church. The bible is not read in a vaccum. What is even more difficult to understand, is no one held the protestant view of The Blessed Virgin Mary having sinned until the Reformation and most of the “heroes” of the Reformation did not hold this rather new protestant view.

Pax Christi
David

I’m not sure what makes you think I am outside the church. I’m a devout Christian which makes me very much a part of the church. I was born and raised in a catholic church but left because I disagree with many teachings. Some of which have strong paganistic ties. I’m not a protestant nor do I support any specific religious denomination. You say that no one held the view of Mary not sinning until the refomation. That just doesn’t make sense. Do you think that eveyone just waited until the reformation to change their mind. Or did they always hold that view and used the reformation as a forum to express that opinion? Seems the later makes more sense.

I’m a Christian in every sense of the word and consider the Bible to be the revelation of God and that it overrules any church tradition. You may believe Mary didn’t sin but the Bible clearly tells us that all men have sinned and fall short. No exceptions. It’s not a matter of reading the Bible in a vacuum although I’m not sure what that is supposed to mean. I’ve studied the Bible more now than when I was in Catholic school. We were never taught to read the Bible.

Catholics go by what they are taught by their church and most have never even laid their eyes on a copy of the Bible. Then they try to argue like they know what they are talking about. My parents are like that and many relatives who are still Catholic. Once I’ve shown them scripture and can refute many of their claims they have no response other than, “I’ve never read the Bible so I don’t know”.

 

[inchrist101]

I am sorry you cannot understand it. But, many brilliant minds have examined it and pondered it and it remains a clear teaching of the Church.

It’s not a clear teaching of the church. Maybe the Roman Catholic church. But not the Christian church as a whole. It’s not a matter of pondering it. It’s a matter of finding scriptural support. We can only speak where the Bible speaks. Where the Bible is silent we have to be silent and wait for God to clarify. As Pastor Gene Getz who wrote “The Measure of a Good Man” states, “There are some things we will have to wait for God to clarify”. I couldn’t agree more.

Mary sinning has nothing to do with Jesus not sinning. He was born with no sin because he was God’s son and God has no sin. He didn’t need Mary to pass that along to him. Jesus also never committed sin while he walked the earth because he was and is the Christ.

I guess I don’t understand it because it’s not scriptural that Mary didn’t sin and us getting to heaven has nothing to do with her sinning or not. It’s our belief in Jesus.

 

[davidv]

You may believe Mary didn’t sin but the Bible clearly tells us that all men have sinned and fall short. No exceptions.

Are you saying Jesus was a sinner? Or that He wasn’t a man? Sounds like an exception to me.

 

[BlestOne]

I’m not sure what makes you think I am outside the church. I’m a devout Christian which makes me very much a part of the church. I was born and raised in a catholic church but left because I disagree with many teachings. Some of which have strong paganistic ties. I’m not a protestant nor do I support any specific religious denomination. You say that no one held the view of Mary not sinning until the refomation. That just doesn’t make sense. Do you think that eveyone just waited until the reformation to change their mind. Or did they always hold that view and used the reformation as a forum to express that opinion? Seems the later makes more sense.

I’m a Christian in every sense of the word and consider the Bible to be the revelation of God and that it overrules any church tradition. You may believe Mary didn’t sin but the Bible clearly tells us that all men have sinned and fall short. No exceptions. It’s not a matter of reading the Bible in a vacuum although I’m not sure what that is supposed to mean. I’ve studied the Bible more now than when I was in Catholic school. We were never taught to read the Bible.

Catholics go by what they are taught by their church and most have never even laid their eyes on a copy of the Bible. Then they try to argue like they know what they are talking about. My parents are like that and many relatives who are still Catholic. Once I’ve shown them scripture and can refute many of their claims they have no response other than, “I’ve never read the Bible so I don’t know”.

Wow what a bitter person you sound like!!! I am a cradle Catholic and I read my Bible… and I can tell you from experience, my kids even read theirs all on their own too…

You may be a Christian, which then makes you a part of the Body of Christ, but you don’t have the fullness of the truth that you can only get from the Catholic church. Yet you state you are not a Protestant…but that is exactly what you are if you left the Catholic Church in PROTEST of Church Doctrine. Do you understand that a Catholic that goes to Church every Sunday will have read the entire Bible in 3 yrs… or that a Catholic that goes to daily mass will read the entire Bible in 2 yrs? Yes, that is true… between the Psalms, OT reading, NT reading and the Gospel reading… we Catholics are very much a Biblical Church. Just because your private interpretation doesn’t support the sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin, does not mean it isn’t so. As a Catholic, I have the benefit of 2000 years of Theologians and people alot smarter than I to help with interpreting scripture… as it was meant to be… The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth, not the Bible. If you believe that the Bible is as you say… “Bible to be the revelation of God and that it overrules any church tradition” Then how do you reconcile the verses in the Bible that tell us to hold fast to the oral traditions? Then you are not following the command of the Bible if you reject the traditions are you?

As for your beliefs about all falling short of the glory and all being sinners… hmmmm, so never once in your life have you used the word all instead of almost all or most? You have never said, "We all (feel, said, did, etc) when in fact it really wasn’t all? Or perhaps, when Paul said this Mary was no longer among the living… we know John was not… maybe he meant all living… It is also possible that the translation of the word all may be literal but not accurate. Basically you have no proof of the sins of Mary or John and the burden of proof is on you… So, you would reject the teachings of 2000 years worth of the brightest and holiest men for your pride… because your interpretation has to be the right one? That my friend is the sin of PRIDE.

 

[DCD]

I’m not sure what makes you think I am outside the church. I’m a devout Christian which makes me very much a part of the church. I was born and raised in a catholic church but left because I disagree with many teachings. Some of which have strong paganistic ties. I’m not a protestant nor do I support any specific religious denomination. You say that no one held the view of Mary not sinning until the refomation. That just doesn’t make sense. Do you think that eveyone just waited until the reformation to change their mind. Or did they always hold that view and used the reformation as a forum to express that opinion? Seems the later makes more sense.

I’m a Christian in every sense of the word and consider the Bible to be the revelation of God and that it overrules any church tradition. You may believe Mary didn’t sin but the Bible clearly tells us that all men have sinned and fall short. No exceptions. It’s not a matter of reading the Bible in a vacuum although I’m not sure what that is supposed to mean. I’ve studied the Bible more now than when I was in Catholic school. We were never taught to read the Bible.

Catholics go by what they are taught by their church and most have never even laid their eyes on a copy of the Bible. Then they try to argue like they know what they are talking about. My parents are like that and many relatives who are still Catholic. Once I’ve shown them scripture and can refute many of their claims they have no response other than, “I’ve never read the Bible so I don’t know”.

I did not mean to offend. I never said you were not christian. You are outside The Catholic Church because you are not in communion with her. Now if you were baptised then you are part of the church as a result of your baptism but this is a different topic. Maybe you should read you post again and ask yourself if what you have written are your views or perhaps the same old anti-Catholic lines that are put forth.

Let me give you an example: “Most have (Catholics) never even laid their eyes on a copy of the Bible.” If this statement by you is truly yours please prove it or give some kind of hard data that would verify your statement.

If you want to discuss Original Sin or The Blessed Mother I will do my best but please stop generalizing a billion plus Catholics so this can be fruitful.

Peace,
David