That is correct. God cannot force us to love Him or our neighbors.So God is powerless against man’s free will.
How do you know this?The tree was the knowledge of good and evil not who gets to decide.
So, if your teenage son gets drunk at friends party and kills a pedestrianIf I know that my child is in harms way and I placed the harm ther and do nothing to prevent the child from being harmed then yes I am responsible. Likeringing a gun into the house and not safeguarding against it’s missuse. I am as the adult the responsible party for it’s missuse and the consequences that arise.
Free will is Gods choice to not interfere with our choices. Free will doesn’t exist otherwise.So freer will is the most powerful force in th universe more powerful than God.
That is the name of the tree The knowledge of good and evil.
No because I didn’t put my son in that situation or Give him the alcohol. God put Adam in the garden, made the tree and made the tempter.
How could you possible understand love any better that God does. This to me is exactly what Adam and Eve determined. They knew better than God what was good for them.Why should God be less accountable than humans. If we are to be believe that what he does He does out of love it should conform to our understanding of love.
I believe that it is because you don’t really understand the story.This story makes him look petty and malcient. If He is omniscient He should have foreseen this.
The real danger is thinking we know more and better than God. Sounds very pridefull to me.The danger IMO is to commit to a malcient being just because he says He loves us. Actions speak louder than words. I’m not convinced of YHWH’s goodness. There are good Kings and bad Kings. Because of the Kings power people are subject to their will but it doesn’t speak to the King’s benevolence. The way he treats his people does. In this story God Sets up Adam to fall - not a good King.
Where does it say that God set Adam up? What the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil signifies is a choice; simply that Adam, being the creature and not the creator, has the choice- by virtue of having free will-of whether to follow the creators’ will in determining right and wrong or whether to make that determination for himself. Following our own will, rather than the will of God, aka the “natural law”, is what makes pedophilia, for example, possible.Why should God be less accountable than humans. If we are to be believe that what he does He does out of love it should conform to our understanding of love. This story makes him look petty and malcient. If He is omniscient He should have foreseen this.
The danger IMO is to commit to a malcient being just because he says He loves us. Actions speak louder than words. I’m not convinced of YHWH’s goodness. There are good Kings and bad Kings. Because of the Kings power people are subject to their will but it doesn’t speak to the King’s benevolence. The way he treats his people does. In this story God Sets up Adam to fall - not a good King.
So you have said repeatedly. Yet you have failed to demonstrate that it was. “letting him” is evidence of mans freedom to choose.The events of story says it. In order to give man free will God had to give Adam a choice. The choice is embodied by the tree. God being omnicent knew Adam would chose to disobey but let him. That is a set up.
It’s not so much a set up as a determination that it would ultimately be worth it to create and give free will to creation-in the form of man. I agree that it’s worth it and that’s one reason I wasn’t afraid to bring children into this world. I basically had a similar choice at that time.The events of story says it. In order to give man free will God had to give Adam a choice. The choice is embodied by the tree. God being omnicent knew Adam would chose to disobey but let him. That is a set up.
Pardon me. I find the implication that God is the sinner to be beyond reasonable discussion. Thus, there is no need for me to remain on this thread.Why should God be less accountable than humans. If we are to be believe that what he does He does out of love it should conform to our understanding of love. This story makes him look petty and malcient. If He is omniscient He should have foreseen this.
The danger IMO is to commit to a malcient being just because he says He loves us. Actions speak louder than words. I’m not convinced of YHWH’s goodness. There are good Kings and bad Kings. Because of the Kings power people are subject to their will but it doesn’t speak to the King’s benevolence. The way he treats his people does. In this story God Sets up Adam to fall - not a good King.
God is no passive bystander in the choices made by his creations in the OT. On the contrary. He intervenes many times, typically very forcefully. Even the decision to eat of the fruit was not without heavy influence. It’s just that the influence of the serpent won out over the influence of God.Free will is Gods choice to not interfere with our choices. Free will doesn’t exist otherwise.
so why attach a punishment to it?It’s not so much a set up as a determination that it would ultimately be worth it to create and give free will to creation-in the form of man. I agree that it’s worth it and that’s one reason I wasn’t afraid to bring children into this world. I basically had a similar choice at that time.
I have reread Genesis chapter 2. I do not see any “heavy influence” nor “forceful” intervention in the garden. Where you see this?God is no passive bystander in the choices made by his creations in the OT. On the contrary. He intervenes many times, typically very forcefully. Even the decision to eat of the fruit was not without heavy influence.
Why did the serpant’s influence win out? Did God force them to choose the serpant over Himself?It’s just that the influence of the serpent won out over the influence of God.
All choices have consequences. Some are foreseen, others are not. Virtuous choices result in good consequences, sinful choices result in bad consequences.so why attach a punishment to it?
Granny thanks for your help - I’m sorry if your faith prevents you from this discussion. I’m lacking the faith that YHWH is the ultimate good in the universe. So he fall does seem like a set up. I was trying to be convinced of the fact. I guess you need to believe that first before any of the rest can even begin to seem cohesive. Anyway thanks for trying.
How can one argue that God is not the source of evil? God is argued on these threads to be the first source of ALL creation, that God sees all and knows all and that nothing exists nor has ever existed except with his permission and acknowledgment. I am told these things REPEATEDLY on these threads. There is NOTHING blasphemous in the suggestion that God is the primary source of ALL and that he clearly permitted the presence of a dangerous tree and a dangerous being (serpent) among his most cherished possessions made in his likeness. And MANY MANY good and decent theologians have addressed the subject over the millennia. Stop with all this over-sensitivity around one of the most profound philosophical and theological questions of all time.All choices have consequences. Some are foreseen, others are not. Virtuous choices result in good consequences, sinful choices result in bad consequences.
It seems to me that what you call punishment, God would call justice. They got what they deserved given the choice they made.
I defense of granny’s leaving, from my view you have taken a very irreverant approach to exploring this topic. That you would suggest that God is the source of evil even if in an indirect way, is the height of blasphemy.
The serpent won because God made imperfect beings. Clearly. In many creation myths the gods make humans that are flawed. Such was the case in this story, too. They were pretty good as far as first beings go, but they lacked resistance to the temptation of greater knowledge (a VERY human trait). Thus they failed the test after God allowed two dangerous presences in that garden: the tree and the serpent. I would have failed, too.I have reread Genesis chapter 2. I do not see any “heavy influence” nor “forceful” intervention in the garden. Where you see this?
Why did the serpant’s influence win out? Did God force them to choose the serpant over Himself?
Thanks - my thoughts exactly. God made the garden, He made the tree, He made the snake, He made the Man, He made the Man’s nature, He made free will.How can one argue that God is not the source of evil? God is argued on these threads to be the first source of ALL creation, that God sees all and knows all and that nothing exists nor has ever existed except with his permission and acknowledgment. I am told these things REPEATEDLY on these threads. There is NOTHING blasphemous in the suggestion that God is the primary source of ALL and that he clearly permitted the presence of a dangerous tree and a dangerous being (serpent) among his most cherished possessions made in his likeness. And MANY MANY good and decent theologians have addressed the subject over the millennia. Stop with all this over-sensitivity around one of the most profound philosophical and theological questions of all time.
The problem is that you’ve made it impossible for God to separate His will from that of His creation, which renders human free will an impossibility and along with it any human responsibility for human actions. Of course God created everything and so is the ultimate cause. But as evil is the negation of His will it isn’t something He created per se but rather something He allows.How can one argue that God is not the source of evil? God is argued on these threads to be the first source of ALL creation, that God sees all and knows all and that nothing exists nor has ever existed except with his permission and acknowledgment. I am told these things REPEATEDLY on these threads. There is NOTHING blasphemous in the suggestion that God is the primary source of ALL and that he clearly permitted the presence of a dangerous tree and a dangerous being (serpent) among his most cherished possessions made in his likeness. And MANY MANY good and decent theologians have addressed the subject over the millennia. Stop with all this over-sensitivity around one of the most profound philosophical and theological questions of all time.
According to the story and our common understanding of authority and responsibility, God is responsible for and accepting of and permissive towards evil both in that original garden and in the world ever since.The problem is that you’ve made it impossible for God to separate His will from that of His creation, which renders human free will an impossibility and along with it any human responsibility for human actions. Of course God created everything and so is the ultimate cause. But as evil is the negation of His will it isn’t something He created per se but rather something He allows.