Orignal Sin

[larkin31]

The problem is that you’ve made it impossible for God to separate His will from that of His creation, which renders human free will an impossibility and along with it any human responsibility for human actions. Of course God created everything and so is the ultimate cause. But as evil is the negation of His will it isn’t something He created per se but rather something He allows.

God is not in control of all our movements and decisions. Genesis does not demonstrate this, nor is anyone claiming this here. You are not summarizing our argument correctly. God’s “will” was to make the beings that he made. God’s “will” was to place the tree of knowledge in the middle of the Garden. God’s “will” was to permit the presence of the serpent in that Garden (actually, I might argue that God did not know that the serpent was there, but I have already stated that Genesis shows that God was not omniscient in those chapters). Is any of those statements of God’s “will” incorrect?

 

[davidv]

How can one argue that God is not the source of evil? God is argued on these threads to be the first source of ALL creation, that God sees all and knows all and that nothing exists nor has ever existed except with his permission and acknowledgment. I am told these things REPEATEDLY on these threads. There is NOTHING blasphemous in the suggestion that God is the primary source of ALL and that he clearly permitted the presence of a dangerous tree and a dangerous being (serpent) among his most cherished possessions made in his likeness. And MANY MANY good and decent theologians have addressed the subject over the millennia. Stop with all this over-sensitivity around one of the most profound philosophical and theological questions of all time.

The falacy here is that evil is a creation. It is NOT. It is an absence, a lack. Like darkness is the absence of light. Darkness cannot be created. It only exists when light is absent. In the same way evil is not created. It only exists when goodness is absent.

 

[davidv]

The serpent won because God made imperfect beings.

What is your proof of this.

Clearly. In many creation myths the gods make humans that are flawed. Such was the case in this story, too.

Prove it.

They were pretty good as far as first beings go, but they lacked resistance to the temptation of greater knowledge (a VERY human trait).

How would you know? Were you there?

Thus they failed the test after God allowed two dangerous presences in that garden: the tree and the serpent. I would have failed, too.

Too bad. They had and you have the abililty to pass.

 

[kepha1]

Originally Posted by larkin31

*How can one argue that God is not the source of evil? *

The same as one would argue the parents are the source of their children’s misdeeds.

God is argued on these threads to be the first source of ALL creation, that God sees all and knows all and that nothing exists nor has ever existed except with his permission and acknowledgment. I am told these things REPEATEDLY on these threads.

God permits me to sin and I don’t even have to ask? Shame on them, larkin.

• There is NOTHING blasphemous in the suggestion that God is the primary source of ALL and that he clearly permitted the presence of a dangerous tree and a dangerous being (serpent) among his most cherished possessions made in his likeness.*

God is not the cause of evil.
God made everything GOOD.
God made the angels GOOD.
God made our First Parents GOOD.
Evil happens when God’s creatures make the wrong choice, or endure the consequences of wrong choices. Satan was good before he made the wrong choice, and things operate a bit differently in eternity. Satan’s rebellion is an eternal event. Is that why Satan cannot repent? Adam and Eve were GOOD. Sinless. Full of grace. It helps to jump the hurdles in the right order.

• And MANY MANY good and decent theologians have addressed the subject over the millennia. Stop with all this over-sensitivity around one of the most profound philosophical and theological questions of all time.*

Yea, too much over sensitivity and I get a rash.

 

[fhansen]

God is not in control of all our movements and decisions. Genesis does not demonstrate this, nor is anyone claiming this here. You are not summarizing our argument correctly. God’s “will” was to make the beings that he made. God’s “will” was to place the tree of knowledge in the middle of the Garden. God’s “will” was to permit the presence of the serpent in that Garden (actually, I might argue that God did not know that the serpent was there, but I have already stated that Genesis shows that God was not omniscient in those chapters). Is any of those statements of God’s “will” incorrect?

Gods “will” was to create beings who freely recognize and choose love as the highest value. But if they can freely choose it they must also be able to freely reject it. Fortunately He’s patient.

 

[larkin31]

The falacy here is that evil is a creation. It is NOT. It is an absence, a lack. Like darkness is the absence of light. Darkness cannot be created. It only exists when light is absent. In the same way evil is not created. It only exists when goodness is absent.

Evil is fully part of God’s plan, according to Genesis. God set up the possibility, arranged Eden so that mistakes could occur, set up the temptation, and then punished the insubordination.

Oh, and God made night, too.

 

[larkin31]

God made our First Parents GOOD.

“Good” is not perfect. God made imperfect beings. Even in the first generation, these beings went astray.

Evil happens when God’s creatures make the wrong choice, or endure the consequences of wrong choices. Satan was good before he made the wrong choice, and things operate a bit differently in eternity. Satan’s rebellion is an eternal event. Is that why Satan cannot repent? Adam and Eve were GOOD. Sinless. Full of grace. It helps to jump the hurdles in the right order.

God made these beings fully capable of erring. Indeed, they had not yet even started a family before they had disobeyed and had punishment rained down on both them and their progeny for eternity.

 

[larkin31]

Gods “will” was to create beings who freely recognize and choose love as the highest value. But if they can freely choose it they must also be able to freely reject it. Fortunately He’s patient.

God was not patient with them in Eden.

 

[fhansen]

God was not patient with them in Eden.

Sure He was. He didn’t annihilate them. His plan of salvation/restoration was already in place- His “punishment” not so much punitive as reformative-formative actually. Man had separated himself from God , the source of his life. The lesson is that there really isn’t anything of value to be learned by coming to know good and evil-other than that God is the ultimate good and evil is to be shunned, to learn that a choice really must be made and that choice is to choose life rather than death. And this world-this exile from God-is the perfect place to learn how helpless and destitute we really are without Him. Man needs God-but he’s born with a certain aversion to Him-an unreasonable aversion or mistrust which He helps us overcome until we see that He always had man’s best interest at heart; mans’ full and uncompromised happiness-which only He has the means to provide.

 

[larkin31]

Sure He was. He didn’t annihilate them.

God banishes them immediately. Which form of “patience” is that? God immediately introduces pain, suffering, toil, and death and never lets them enter Eden again. Immediately upon first offense. That is not any standard form of “patience.”

You can say all you want about a later covenant and the arrival of Jesus, but God’s role in Eden is clear from the story: God is in charge of Eden, he got the creatures that he intended to make, he put the Tree (actually two) in the middle despite the clear threat to his most familiar creations, permitted (likely) the presence of the serpent, and then immediately punished and banished A&E upon their rather quick failure to restrain their temptation toward knowledge (after all, what is wrong with seeking knowledge?). Seems to me that God got exactly what any intelligent being would guess was quite likely in that scenario: failure to restrain oneself. If God did not think that failure was likely coming, then God is not as bright as most parents, leaders, adults. They were his creations. It was his Garden. It was his set-up. What else did God think was going to happen?

 

[larkin31]

What is your proof of this.

Prove it.

How would you know? Were you there?

Too bad. They had and you have the abililty to pass.

These questions simply ignore the details of Genesis 1-3 that we have been discussing here. And you seriously ask me if “I was there”? What, in Eden? I have been assuming that you are adult, David. This is more like a question a sulking student would ask.

If you have a different reading of the details of Genesis 1-3, then you should offer it for review. Interpretations don’t have “proof,” which I think that you actually know. The have the persuasion of reason and coherence (or not). I offer my reasoning every time.

Of course A &E had the “ability” to pass God’s test. No one said that they did not. I only claimed that the story demonstrates that they were “not perfect.” Their failure demonstrates this clearly. Interestingly, it only takes one attempt at persuasion by the serpent to beat the influence of God’s rule on the matter. I consider that far from stalwart, and far from perfect in this regard. They are “good,” but far from “perfect.” I actually don’t think that the Genesis writers had any interest in suggesting that Adam and Eve were perfect. That, in my opinion, is a later extremist position projected back on the original document.

 

[fhansen]

God banishes them immediately. Which form of “patience” is that? God immediately introduces pain, suffering, toil, and death and never lets them enter Eden again. Immediately upon first offense. That is not any standard form of “patience.”

You can say all you want about a later covenant and the arrival of Jesus, but God’s role in Eden is clear from the story: God is in charge of Eden, he got the creatures that he intended to make, he put the Tree (actually two) in the middle despite the clear threat to his most familiar creations, permitted (likely) the presence of the serpent, and then immediately punished and banished A&E upon their rather quick failure to restrain their temptation toward knowledge (after all, what is wrong with seeking knowledge?). Seems to me that God got exactly what any intelligent being would guess was quite likely in that scenario: failure to restrain oneself. If God did not think that failure was likely coming, then God is not as bright as most parents, leaders, adults. They were his creations. It was his Garden. It was his set-up. What else did God think was going to happen?

No one denies that God knew the fall would occur; He couldn’t do otherwise-He’s God after all. But I think you make the story too complicated. The lesson of the fall is simply that when creation is out of order with Gods will, discord, strife, and disharmony occur. But only when creation possesses free will can this take place. It may not matter how perfect -on some relative scale- God made man; man still isn’t God. But God wants man to be like Him-to place his whole being on the side of love and to experience the sheer joy and beauty of that knowledge.

 

[CEM5]

The serpent won because God made imperfect beings. Clearly. In many creation myths the gods make humans that are flawed. Such was the case in this story, too. They were pretty good as far as first beings go, but they lacked resistance to the temptation of greater knowledge (a VERY human trait). Thus they failed the test after God allowed two dangerous presences in that garden: the tree and the serpent. I would have failed, too.

Hi larkin,

No, God did not make anything imperfect. He did not make the snake “symbol” of the devil, who is called many various names in the Bible.

God made everything “good” - including the angels. However, Lucifer, and 1/3 of the angels, did not want to be with God. Lucifer wanted to be mightier and greater than God, (sin of Pride) so he along with the other prideful angels were forced from heaven. These are the fallen angels (known as demons) and Lucifer (who was the most beautiful angel - and whose named means “lightbearer”, became known as Satan, the devil, the serpent, the snake, the great dragon, and so on…Adam and Eve had full grace to resist temptation, however, they too wanted more than God gave them, even though they had everything. That is the sin of greed and pride.

Their (the fallen angels and fallen humans) sin of pride introduced evil into the world. God did not. God allows evil to exist, and we have the free will and the intelligence to resist. However, I believe no one at any time in their life will be 100 % obedient, thus we all sin (as St Paul taught), (exceptions: children under a certain age, those whose mental capacities are childlike, and Mary.)

blessings,
CEM

 

[jonfawkes]

God gave the Devil his nature. He could have kept him from rebelling - no? He knew Lucifer would rebel just as He knew that Judas would betray him, (which lead to the necessity of the Crucifixion.) So God must have wanted evil in the world. He created the means for it to enter.

 

[fhansen]

God gave the Devil his nature. He could have kept him from rebelling - no? He knew Lucifer would rebel just as He knew that Judas would betray him, (which lead to the necessity of the Crucifixion.) So God must have wanted evil in the world. He created the means for it to enter.

The “means” was simply free will. Which means that He couldn’t keep lucifer from rebelling. He either gives free will-or He withholds it-that’s the choice.

 

[jonfawkes]

So by creating free will - he creates the means. How is God not culpable? How can you say evil is against His Will? His will created free will.

 

[fhansen]

So by creating free will - he creates the means. How is God not culpable? How can you say evil is against His Will? His will created free will.

It was His will to allow evil so indirectly He’s the cause of it. The determination He made was whether to create (to give the gift of existence, a good) and include free will (another good). That the abuse of these goods would occur was foreknown by Him but not willed by Him. We can agree or disagree with Him that existence plus free will is a good idea since we’re the result of that determination. I happen to agree that this existence is something to be valued and cherished even in this screwed up world.-a world out of sync with His will. We believe He won’t allow good and evil to co-exist forever. Justice will be done after allowing time and help (grace) for creation to align itself with Him again.

 

[kepha1]

**“In the Beginning…”
**A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall
excerpts from Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI)

 

[kepha1]

So by creating free will - he creates the means. How is God not culpable? How can you say evil is against His Will? His will created free will.

God is not going to force people to love him and want to be with him. God did not make us robots.

 

[kepha1]

The Problem of Evil

PETER KREEFT