Orignal Sin

[larkin31]

Nothing in the text of Genesis actual states a timeline. This is pure speculation.

It is reasoned speculation, and I see that you do not claim otherwise. I am not the first person to claim this (read it in the story). They fail the test EVEN BEFORE THEY HAVE HAD THEIR FIRST CHILD.

Exactly as the consequences, spelled out ahead of time, were necessary. These should have been taken into account when the decision was made.

They were considered, and rejected (at least by Eve). The serpent won the battle of influence.

Pure presumption on your part.

Well, God was surprised or he was not. I am giving you the reasons why I think it is “suggested” that God was surprised. If you want to claim that God knew that this was going to happen, then I would like to hear the reasoning that leads to this. Interestingly, you have been giving NO REASONING for any of your counter claims to me.

they were strong enough, they chose not to use it to resist the temptation.

Now who is speculating? They fail the only test put to them, yet you claim that they were strong enough to have resisted.

False dicotomy.

No, it’s not. (I am going to try your approach to “argument”)

 

[davidv]

God is All Good but allows evil to happen. - Agreed?

We can see evil in the world, the bible tells us it exists, the Church tells us it exists, As a Privation - Agreed?

The way that evil makes into the world is through a turning away from God - Agreed?

The only to turn away from God is Free Will? Agreed?

God Gave us Free Will ( and the Angels) - Agreed?

Adam and Lucifer Turned away from God - Agreed?

So the only way for evil to exist is through the will of God. If he didn’t will the structure for evil to manifest it wouldn’t exist.

I’m not questioning if God Loves us or God is Good.

Which “will of God” are you speaking of?
His active will?
or His permissive will?

 

[jonfawkes]

Yes but then you turned around on yourself and said that God wills Evil. How can Evil turn against itself? If you think God is Good how can He be Evil? Your argument is flawed.

How does evil turn against itself? I never said God was evil - I said God willed evil into the world through His creation. He created everything and everything to His will. God creating evil doesn’t make God evil anymore than it makes Him a Dog or the Sun or the Ocean.

 

[davidv]

How does evil turn against itself? I never said God was evil - I said God willed evil into the world through His creation. He created everything and everything to His will. God creating evil doesn’t make God evil anymore than it makes Him a Dog or the Sun or the Ocean.

Saying God wills evil is the same as saying God is evil.

214 God, “HE WHO IS”, revealed himself to Israel as the one “abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness”.27 These two terms express summarily the riches of the divine name. In all his works God displays, not only his kindness, goodness, grace and steadfast love, but also his trustworthiness, constancy, faithfulness and truth. "I give thanks to your name for your steadfast love and your faithfulness."28 He is the Truth, for “God is light and in him there is no darkness”; “God is love”, as the apostle John teaches.29

The bolded parts says the can be no evil in God, not even the willing of evil.

 

[jonfawkes]

Saying God wills evil is the same as saying God is evil.

The bolded parts says the can be no evil in God, not even the willing of evil.

God willed the creation of the Heaven and the Earth, all the animals, plants, Man, Angels, all of creation. Is God the heavens? Is God the Earth? Is God the Animals? Is God the Plants? Is God the Angels?

Evil is just something else that God wills, it doesn’t make God evil. Nothing exists without His will.

 

[davidv]

God willed the creation of the Heaven and the Earth, all the animals, plants, Man, Angels, all of creation. Is God the heavens? Is God the Earth? Is God the Animals? Is God the Plants? Is God the Angels?

How many of these were created evil?

Evil is just something else that God wills, it doesn’t make God evil. Nothing exists without His will.

Proven false in prior posts. Repeating your claim won’t make it true.

Edit:
Is God Love?
Catholic teaching says He is.

**1766 **“To love is to will the good of another.”

God’s love is perfect. Willing evil is not willing the good of another. Therefore God cannot will evil. To do so would to not be willing good.

 

[jonfawkes]

So explain how does anything exist outside God’s will?

 

[davidv]

So explain how does anything exist outside God’s will?

Sin.

 

[jonfawkes]

No - not what -

**How ** can we circumvent God’s will. Free will is His will.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

No - not what -

**How ** can we circumvent God’s will. Free will is His will.

I don’t understand your question. How can we circumvent Gods will? By SINNING!!!

I have a hard time believing you are Catholic. You seem to be totally ignorant of the most basic tenets of our religion.

We are created in God’s image. We have free will. We can chose to turn against Him and his goodness or embrace Him and try to follow the teachings of Jesus.

 

[jonfawkes]

12 years of Catholic School - Baptized, confirmed and married in the Church.

I think you are missing my point -

Sinning is turning away from God.
How are we able to Sin?
We are able to sin through free will.
Who Gave us free will?
God gave us free will.

It was God’s will to give us the means to sin, sinning is part of the plan or God wouldn’t have given us the means to sin. God didn’t give animals the ability to speak or souls they can’t acquire souls or speaking because God doesn’t will it. The mere manifestation of sin means it’s part of God’s plan - his will. Everything that exists or will ever exist is by his will. Everything that happened or will happen is by his will.

You can turn away but you can’t escape his will.

 

[fhansen]

12 years of Catholic School - Baptized, confirmed and married in the Church.

I think you are missing my point -

Sinning is turning away from God.
How are we able to Sin?
We are able to sin through free will.
Who Gave us free will?
God gave us free will.

It was God’s will to give us the means to sin, sinning is part of the plan or God wouldn’t have given us the means to sin. God didn’t give animals the ability to speak or souls they can’t acquire souls or speaking because God doesn’t will it. The mere manifestation of sin means it’s part of God’s plan - his will. Everything that exists or will ever exist is by his will. Everything that happened or will happen is by his will.

You can turn away but you can’t escape his will.

Scripture says that it’s not Gods will that any should perish and yet it also says that some will opt to do that very thing. A definition of free will could be the ability to reject Gods will.

 

[jonfawkes]

Scripture says that it’s not Gods will that any should perish and yet it also says that some will opt to do that very thing. A definition of free will could be the ability to reject Gods will.

But it’s still God that gives the ability. You can reject it You can’t escape it. God could rescind free will if he choose to. By His will we are able to sin.

 

[fhansen]

But it’s still God that gives the ability. You can reject it You can’t escape it. God could rescind free will if he choose to. By His will we are able to sin.

He doesn’t provide the intent to commit murder nor does He pull the trigger but He provides the means for it to happen.

 

[jonfawkes]

He doesn’t provide the intent to commit murder nor does He pull the trigger but He provides the means for it to happen.

So, it must be of His will or it wouldn’t happen. By providing the means He shows that it is part of His will.

 

[davidv]

So, it must be of His will or it wouldn’t happen. By providing the means He shows that it is part of His will.

What do you really mean when you use the term “God’s will”. It seems to me that you are using a definition that is very different than the one the Church uses.

Please be as clear and specific as you can in describing what mean when you say "God’s will. I fear we aren’t understanding each other.

 

[fhansen]

So, it must be of His will or it wouldn’t happen. By providing the means He shows that it is part of His will.

He doesn’t will the evil done. He wills that man has the freedom to carry out whatever good, evil, or otherwise he desires and is capable of doing. Otherwise the idea of human moral responsibility should no longer be taken seriously. A defense attorney in a murder case should plead, “God made him do it”

 

[jonfawkes]

He doesn’t will the evil done. He wills that man has the freedom to carry out whatever good, evil, or otherwise he desires and is capable of doing. Otherwise the idea of human moral responsibility should no longer be taken seriously. A defense attorney in a murder case should plead, “God made him do it”

With out the means evil cannot be done.

This isn’t valid - Human moral responsibility isn’t dependent on God in the context of civil law. Men have worshiped different gods through out history, all civilizations have laws. We have laws in the U.S. that are country to God’s law. That’s why people don’t get away with blowing up abortion clinics. Civil law and God’s law can overlap but they aren’t the same thing. Render unto Caesar…

Do you believe that God has the power to rescind free will? He must, it is the gift that He gave and he is omnipotent. If he didn’t want murders to occur He could in his infinite power rescind free will. He must have a reason that he doesn’t, so murder must be part of the plan.

 

[larkin31]

He doesn’t will the evil done. He wills that man has the freedom to carry out whatever good, evil, or otherwise he desires and is capable of doing. Otherwise the idea of human moral responsibility should no longer be taken seriously. A defense attorney in a murder case should plead, “God made him do it”

If the OT tales tell us anything, it is that when things get bad enough, God intervenes in devastating ways to knock down cities, civilizations, even the entire planet (Noah). When God doesn’t, he is either accepting of the evil or not yet upset enough to intervene.

Or unaware. I actually think that God is unaware of Adam and Eve’s temptation event in the Garden when it occurs. When he asks, “Who told you that you are naked?” he truly does not know how it happened. I can’t imagine that this is simply an honesty test and that this God is being coy with them (asking a question he already knows the answer to).

 

[davidv]

With out the means evil cannot be done.

How do the means become the cause?

This isn’t valid - Human moral responsibility isn’t dependent on God in the context of civil law.

Why not? If civil law is just, it will reflect God who is perfectly just.

Men have worshiped different gods through out history, all civilizations have laws. We have laws in the U.S. that are country to God’s law. That’s why people don’t get away with blowing up abortion clinics. Civil law and God’s law can overlap but they aren’t the same thing. Render unto Caesar…

How is this relevant?

Do you believe that God has the power to rescind free will?

Yes. Will He? No.

He must, it is the gift that He gave and he is omnipotent. If he didn’t want murders to occur He could in his infinite power rescind free will. He must have a reason that he doesn’t, so murder must be part of the plan.

Part of some humans’ plans, but not Gods.