Orignal Sin

[fhansen]

With out the means evil cannot be done.

This isn’t valid - Human moral responsibility isn’t dependent on God in the context of civil law. Men have worshiped different gods through out history, all civilizations have laws. We have laws in the U.S. that are country to God’s law. That’s why people don’t get away with blowing up abortion clinics. Civil law and God’s law can overlap but they aren’t the same thing. Render unto Caesar…

Do you believe that God has the power to rescind free will? He must, it is the gift that He gave and he is omnipotent. If he didn’t want murders to occur He could in his infinite power rescind free will. He must have a reason that he doesn’t, so murder must be part of the plan.

Of course He could rescind free will-or He could’ve withheld it to begin with for that matter and avoided the whole mess. And then we wouldn’t be here. A different kind of being might be here but in any case, for better or worse, it wouldn’t be us. And this gets back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The tree represents not only our freedom to choose but also our obligation to choose rightly. As self-conscious, sentient beings, humans, unlike animals, have the freedom to determine morality for themselves, but we have no more right to do so than a dog has a right to go against its own nature-and start meowing instead of barking. This is the meaning of the tree. Humans can either choose to consciously follow Gods will or not. But to follow anything other than His will is to actually go against our selves-to sin against nature itself. Doing so is to separate ourselves from God-and so from our own natures-and this is what makes rape, torture, murder, etc even possible. Later God gave fallen man laws describing basic ways in which His will/our natures should be followed in case there was any doubt-which there was –man had strayed so far. There’s no other way-either man is the determiner/arbiter of morality, in which case morality is actually relative, or God is the determiner, in which case it’s objective. To eat of the tree is to disbelieve God. All lack of faith follows from that.

A good question is, ‘If I’m not being true to my own nature, then who am I’? It’s related to the question God asked, “Who told you that you were naked”? Man is so divided within himself that he isn’t even comfortable with his own body-shame entered immediately with the fall. God was aware of this split-His question is for us to answer. Man has a split personality. One is of his own making: the Moral Determiner, so to speak- mans’ attempt at “godliness”-that dominates and subjugates his own spirit, and another person, the one that God made. Man had come to “know” something that he didn’t know before-that his body was shameful; it was wrong to be naked. Who is that man? He’s very prideful, concerned with what others think, living in fear of others opinions in fact, never wanting to lose face. Oh well, maybe that’s for another thread-but it’s all about OS.

 

[ERose]

The Bible is an official Church Document - no?

Gen

21 God created great sea-monsters and all the creatures that glide and teem in the waters in their own species, and winged birds in their own species. God saw that it was good.

24 God said, ‘Let the earth produce every kind of living creature in its own species: cattle, creeping things and wild animals of all kinds.’ And so it was.

25 God made wild animals in their own species, and cattle in theirs, and every creature that crawls along the earth in its own species. God saw that it was good.

So God says that the Plants and the Animals are Good. Good is a moral quantity. I.E. good vs bad. So by being assigned a moral quantity they are moral entities.

I’m not saying that my dog sinned - he only disobeyed me. Disobeying me isn’t a sin. I’m saying that it demonstrates a will. I say don’t get on the couch, he does it anyway. When he sees me he knows to get off. So I agree that the dog doesn’t have free will. The dog can’t disobey God. He lives with in God’s will as we are supposed to.

I’m not arguing against Church teaching I’m trying to understand the concept of original sin and free will. I saying why it doesn’t make sense to me. I’m looking for clarification where I see holes. Saying “trust in God” doesn’t answer any questions just how to avoid being hung up on them. Which is valuable just doesn’t answer my questions. I trust that God made me an inquisitive lil’ such n’ such for a reason.

I think that alot of your questions have go mired in the thread. So let us start over. Tell us your questions one at a time and let us deal with them appropiately. What is your primary issue with original sin?

 

[CEM5]

I don’t see the analogy as valid - I don’t deliberately put things in my childrens way that put them in danger. There was one danger in the garden and God put it there. There was one tempter and God put it there. He knew that even with His guidance they would choose poorly. I can only hope and trust that my children won’t. For your example to be valid God would have been powerless to save us from harm or it’s a malicious act of a set up.

Hi jonfawkes,

Even though you teach your children and guide them to be obedient to you and the laws, your children will not always obey. They will make wrong choices (it is part of human nature), and even though you may not put anything harmful in their way, you do still have harmful things in the house: knives, electrical outlets, hot stoves, glasses that can be broken, bicycles they ride, driving in cars, crossing streets, and so on…things in life that can harm us, or we can use to harm another or ourselves.

The “tree” is analogous of our wrong choices and disobedience. The “devil” – the snake (as he is described as, among other numerous descriptive names), was around to always tempt them. I see it as only a matter of time before one of “us” humans “sinned”. It only took one act of disobedience to cause the fall, and if not Adam and Eve, then someone else…none of us is without the prepensity to sin.

God knew what we would be like, (after all: He is all-knowing), yet He still loved us enough (He is all-loving), knowing that we would fall, yet had this plan of salvation regardless. That is why He still created us: Great love and patience for us, His children.

Without the choice to choose Him freely, thus placing the “tree” in the Garden, how could anyone ever truly make a choice to “be with God” or to reject God? See, God doesn’t force anyone to love Him, that is why we were given “free will” along with “intelligence” to either reject Him or accept Him. God explained what would happen if they choose to disobey and not heed His words. They had the intelligence to understand, yet they freely chose to listen to “the father of lies” instead, and consequently, did not believe God’s words that they would “die” and thus bring death into the world by THEIR actions - not God’s actions.

People always try to place blame on another for their own actions. That is what I see many people doing: trying to still place the blame on God or the devil. It was their own choice.

 

[CEM5]

That doesn’t blame God, any more than God blames Eve when he tells Adam that he is punishing her for listening to her.

Unless you DO feel that God blames Eve for corrupting Adam. I don’t. But you seem to take these words as blame. I do not.

Yes, Adam is placing blame on God - that is why Adam said " the woman YOU gave me" implying that since God gave the woman to Eve, it’s God’s fault. If Adam didn’t have Eve around, then she wouldn’t have been able to entice him, ergo, in Adam’s guilt-ridden consciousness, he is placing blame on God.

Eve, in turn, places the blame on the snake (the fallen angel “the devil”), rather than own up to her own choice.

Note that none of them place blame on the tree being there!! It is always “another” that is blamed - but never the presence of the tree!!

God doesn’t blame Eve. God knows it is all their “faults”, yet none of them (Adam or Eve) acknowledges their disobedience or apologizes. They are not contrite.

 

[CEM5]

Actually, God is a powerful transcendent, supernatural, pure spirit without the limitations of a material anatomy in a restrictive material/physical world.

Furthermore,
a human parent is not as wise as God, though a human may foolishly think that. A human parent can only transmit human life to her or his children and cannot insure eternal life for them. All parents can hope for is an intact body for a respectful cremation or burial.

Dangers exist independently for humans on earth regardless of parental safeguards.
Temptations can override parental advice and guidance. Because a child can willingly drive a car while drunk, does that mean that the parent is at fault for making sure that the child had driving instructions in school?

Good post grannymh!

 

[CEM5]

That is my point exactly - I can’t remove all the alcohol in the world to keep my child safe. God could. God put the tree in our path. I don’t put alcohol in my child’s path. I don’t know that my child will drive drunk but God new Adam would eat. It was a set up.

Actually, God didn’t create “alcohol” - we humans did! We humans are the ones who “created” all this evil and harm in the world - not God. God created everything “good”. And one day, when Christ returns, those who accepted God and “proved” themselves to Him (my words for us completely loving God), will one day have resurrected eternal, immortal, glorious bodies, and dwell with God in heaven forever, just as we were meant to. This place on earth is our journey, where we are constantly “tested” - do we really love God and want to be with Him forever, or do we reject Him, thus spend eternity absent from God - which is “hell” (because WE choose this)?

See, God is always leaving that choice to US. He will not force anyone to be with Him. Yet, He will give us all the grace we need when we ask it (sincerely ask and truly believe) to avoid grave sins, and gives us the sacrament of reconciliatioin when we “fail” so as to ensure we have ALL possible means availed to us for eternal life with Him should we choose.

 

[larkin31]

Yes, Adam is placing blame on God - that is why Adam said " the woman YOU gave me" implying that since God gave the woman to Eve, it’s God’s fault. If Adam didn’t have Eve around, then she wouldn’t have been able to entice him, ergo, in Adam’s guilt-ridden consciousness, he is placing blame on God.

Eve, in turn, places the blame on the snake (the fallen angel “the devil”), rather than own up to her own choice.

Note that none of them place blame on the tree being there!! It is always “another” that is blamed - but never the presence of the tree!!

God doesn’t blame Eve. God knows it is all their “faults”, yet none of them (Adam or Eve) acknowledges their disobedience or apologizes. They are not contrite.

They do acknowledge their disobedience.

An apology seems entirely uncalled for.

I do recognize a bit of fingerpointing, but God asks them why they did this and they accurately answer. Besides, they are right to give both God and the serpent a share of the responsibility. That is what we have been saying here in this thread.

 

[davidv]

They do acknowledge their disobedience.

They don’t however acknowledge their cupability. This they place on others.

An apology seems entirely uncalled for.

I do recognize a bit of fingerpointing, but God asks them why they did this and they accurately answer.

Giving a partial, incomplete answer is not an “accurate” answer.

Besides, they are right to give both God and the serpent a share of the responsibility. That is what we have been saying here in this thread.

Since they were free to disregard temptation, they can blame no one other themselves for their disobedience. So neither they, nor you, are right in attempting to share the blame.

 

[CEM5]

No one denies that God knew the fall would occur; He couldn’t do otherwise-He’s God after all. But I think you make the story too complicated. The lesson of the fall is simply that when creation is out of order with Gods will, discord, strife, and disharmony occur. But only when creation possesses free will can this take place. It may not matter how perfect -on some relative scale- God made man; man still isn’t God. But God wants man to be like Him-to place his whole being on the side of love and to experience the sheer joy and beauty of that knowledge.

Good post fhansen!

 

[CEM5]

If the OT tales tell us anything, it is that when things get bad enough, God intervenes in devastating ways to knock down cities, civilizations, even the entire planet (Noah). When God doesn’t, he is either accepting of the evil or not yet upset enough to intervene.

Or unaware. I actually think that God is unaware of Adam and Eve’s temptation event in the Garden when it occurs. When he asks, “Who told you that you are naked?” he truly does not know how it happened. I can’t imagine that this is simply an honesty test and that this God is being coy with them (asking a question he already knows the answer to).

Hi larkin,

These “tales” (as you say), are stories of moral value: ultimately, no matter how many times God may intervene to annihilate the existence of evil, and start “anew”, WE humans always turn our backs on God and commit sin (which is an act of evil). SO, therein lies the dilema: do we ultimately choose God and follow His will (which is to be holy - filled with love for one another as God loves us) or do we follow our own will (fullness) thus turning our backs on God, and choosing eternal damnation (existence without God, who is all love, thus without God, existence consists of all that is not of love and goodnessL hell). It is our choice.

See, even though God brought a great flood to cleanse the world of moral evilness, Noah’s offspring still failed and continued with moral evilness. Even though God destroyed the evil-doers in Sodom and Gomorah, and saved Lot - (who was good), moral evil still happened in Lot’s descendants.

This is the BIG PICTURE of the Bible: no matter how many times God tries to get rid of evil, and start anew, we humans reintroduce evil into the world with our freely made choices. Not God’s fault: Our own fault. YET - and here is the great love story of God! - God patiently and lovingly awaits our penitential return to Him with arms wide open ready to embrace us back to Him. He allows us to experience the consequences of our choices so we can learn from them and thus make better (good) choices in future. God came to us in the form of man to show us the way how to do this and to redeem us from being slaves to sin.

Praise God!

 

[larkin31]

They don’t however acknowledge their cupability. This they place on others.

On the contrary, they both fully admit what they have done. They even feel shame. Both of them.

Since they were free to disregard temptation, they can blame no one other themselves for their disobedience. So neither they, nor you, are right in attempting to share the blame.

On the contrary, they are exactly right. God did make Eve, and Eve did offer him the fruit–just exactly as Adam stated. Eve also stated the facts exactly as they occurred. Both fully admit that they ate the fruit. No denial, no dodging, and they answer exactly what God asks.

 

[CEM5]

I’m not joining this discussion for the long haul, but I just want to make the point that there’s a difference between actively willing something and simply permitting something. I take it as a given that God’s gift of free will *permits *us to do things that he’d rather we not do. That’s what free will means.

As an example: I give my son the latitude to hold his own opinions and to disagree with me. Does that mean I’m *willing *that my son disagrees with me? No, it’s a broader kind of willing that I’m “granting” him. I’m willing a greater good–that my son learns to form, express, and defend his own opinions. And for that to happen in any authentic way, he has to be free to take contrary positions as his conscience and reason dictate.

So am I willing his contrariness, his occasional disobedience? In a way, yes—in that broader way. But really, maybe the word “will” is causing the trouble here. *Permit *might be better.

My two cents.

Good two cents!!

 

[jonfawkes]

Actually, God didn’t create “alcohol” - we humans did! We humans are the ones who “created” all this evil and harm in the world - not God. God created everything “good”. And one day, when Christ returns, those who accepted God and “proved” themselves to Him (my words for us completely loving God), will one day have resurrected eternal, immortal, glorious bodies, and dwell with God in heaven forever, just as we were meant to. This place on earth is our journey, where we are constantly “tested” - do we really love God and want to be with Him forever, or do we reject Him, thus spend eternity absent from God - which is “hell” (because WE choose this)?

See, God is always leaving that choice to US. He will not force anyone to be with Him. Yet, He will give us all the grace we need when we ask it (sincerely ask and truly believe) to avoid grave sins, and gives us the sacrament of reconciliatioin when we “fail” so as to ensure we have ALL possible means availed to us for eternal life with Him should we choose.

You are missing the point entirely. God could have removed the tree. I baby proofed my house, God could have baby proofed the garden.

Also - If everything that God makes is Good why call his tree the knowledge of good and evil. This is the beginning of creation. If abuse of man’s free will brings sin and evil into the world why have a tree that will just tell you that you ate the fruit, if you eat it. It’s like a mirror looking at a mirror. Redaction. It’s a nice analogy of the trap of duality but that’s not how the Catholic Church interprets it.

 

[larkin31]

Hi larkin,

These “tales” (as you say), are stories of moral value: ultimately, no matter how many times God may intervene to annihilate the existence of evil, and start “anew”, WE humans always turn our backs on God and commit sin (which is an act of evil). SO, therein lies the dilema: do we ultimately choose God and follow His will (which is to be holy - filled with love for one another as God loves us) or do we follow our own will (fullness) thus turning our backs on God, and choosing eternal damnation (existence without God, who is all love, thus without God, existence consists of all that is not of love and goodnessL hell). It is our choice.

See, even though God brought a great flood to cleanse the world of moral evilness, Noah’s offspring still failed and continued with moral evilness. Even though God destroyed the evil-doers in Sodom and Gomorah, and saved Lot - (who was good), moral evil still happened in Lot’s descendants.

This is the BIG PICTURE of the Bible: no matter how many times God tries to get rid of evil, and start anew, we humans reintroduce evil into the world with our freely made choices. Not God’s fault: Our own fault. YET - and here is the great love story of God! - God patiently and lovingly awaits our penitential return to Him with arms wide open ready to embrace us back to Him. He allows us to experience the consequences of our choices so we can learn from them and thus make better (good) choices in future. God came to us in the form of man to show us the way how to do this and to redeem us from being slaves to sin.

Praise God!

I don’t disagree with this interpretation. It is not really on the point I was making. Yes, humans screw things up. My point has been that God permits this screwing up, since all the tales seem to suggest that God intervenes when he wants to rid the evil. Maybe he has stopped trying since the earlier attempts have all failed.

 

[CEM5]

God called them Good. Calling something good is a moral judgment. Are you calling God a liar?

Yes, they are “good” for God created them. A moral judgment has to do with juding ones’ rational actions and the whether the consequences are good or bad. As was stated, we humans and the angels were created with free will and intelligence (the ability to act freely and know the consequences of our actions). Rational thought.

It is like saying if an inanimate object such as a rock (which by the way is “good”) should become loose from a mountain top and fall and crush to death or seriously injure a person below, is then judged morally evil. A rock cannot be put on trial and punished for what happened for it had no conscious thought nor a rational soul with which to decide to this act or not. It just happened. A rock has no “morals”. Same with plants and animal life: they have no rational soul, ergo, no higher intelligence to decide what is moral and what is immoral.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Hi larkin,

These “tales” (as you say), are stories of moral value: ultimately, no matter how many times God may intervene to annihilate the existence of evil, and start “anew”, WE humans always turn our backs on God and commit sin (which is an act of evil). SO, therein lies the dilema: do we ultimately choose God and follow His will (which is to be holy - filled with love for one another as God loves us) or do we follow our own will (fullness) thus turning our backs on God, and choosing eternal damnation (existence without God, who is all love, thus without God, existence consists of all that is not of love and goodnessL hell). It is our choice.

See, even though God brought a great flood to cleanse the world of moral evilness, Noah’s offspring still failed and continued with moral evilness. Even though God destroyed the evil-doers in Sodom and Gomorah, and saved Lot - (who was good), moral evil still happened in Lot’s descendants.

This is the BIG PICTURE of the Bible: no matter how many times God tries to get rid of evil, and start anew, we humans reintroduce evil into the world with our freely made choices. Not God’s fault: Our own fault. YET - and here is the great love story of God! - God patiently and lovingly awaits our penitential return to Him with arms wide open ready to embrace us back to Him. He allows us to experience the consequences of our choices so we can learn from them and thus make better (good) choices in future. God came to us in the form of man to show us the way how to do this and to redeem us from being slaves to sin.

Praise God!

Great posts CEM5. I don’t see how anybody can make this much clearer.

One thing I think the people who are arguing that God created evil don’t understand, is that the stories in the OT are not neccessarily LITERALLY true. They are stories to help us understand humankind’s tendancy to sin, how we can be redeemed from our sins, and live in the Garden of Eden (Kingdom of God) once again.

 

[CEM5]

They do acknowledge their disobedience.

An apology seems entirely uncalled for.

I do recognize a bit of fingerpointing, but God asks them why they did this and they accurately answer. Besides, they are right to give both God and the serpent a share of the responsibility. That is what we have been saying here in this thread.

No - they never acknowledge their disobedience. Read Genesis 3. They never feel contrition for their act when God questions them. He knew what they did, but waited to hear from them. They did not acurately answer. They placed blame elsewhere, which is not acknowledging their wrongdoing (disobedience). To acurately answer, they would have had to admit by their own fault (not place blame elsewhere) that they freely and knowingly committed an act of disobedience. This they did not do. So to compound their sin of disobedience, they tried to “pass the buck” per se.

 

[CEM5]

Great posts CEM5. I don’t see how anybody can make this much clearer.

One thing I think the people who are arguing that God created evil don’t understand, is that the stories in the OT are not neccessarily LITERALLY true. They are stories to help us understand humankind’s tendancy to sin, how we can be redeemed from our sins, and live in the Garden of Eden (Kingdom of God) once again.

Hi CHRISTINE77, I humbly thank you.

You are correct that people tend to take these stories of Genesis as literal. Genesis 1 is acutally a “poem”, and Genesis 2, 3 are based on “myth” which holds a moral truth/lesson.

 

[CEM5]

You are missing the point entirely. God could have removed the tree. I baby proofed my house, God could have baby proofed the garden.

Also - If everything that God makes is Good why call his tree the knowledge of good and evil. This is the beginning of creation. If abuse of man’s free will brings sin and evil into the world why have a tree that will just tell you that you ate the fruit, if you eat it. It’s like a mirror looking at a mirror. Redaction. It’s a nice analogy of the trap of duality but that’s not how the Catholic Church interprets it.

Hi jonfawkes,

You can baby proof your house, but I know of no child who has not fallen and bumped themselves and hurt themselves in any house no matter how diligence the house was “baby proofed”. There are corners on walls, objects in the house which the child bumps into, cuts and scrapes every child experiences and so on…does this make you evil because your child hurt themselves? Babies grow up into adults, (as Adam and Eve were), and make their own free will choices no matter how well you taught them, and they will make harmful decisions. It is how we grow as humans - we learn from our experiences (well - it is hoped we do )!

Adam and Eve were not babies. They were blessed with (rational) intelligence and were explained by God of the consequences that would happen should they disobey. They knew it and understood this. They misused the gifts that God blessed them with.

 

[jonfawkes]

Hi CHRISTINE77, I humbly thank you.

You are correct that people tend to take these stories of Genesis as literal. Genesis 1 is acutally a “poem”, and Genesis 2, 3 are based on “myth” which holds a moral truth/lesson.

I for one are not taking it literally - I saying as allegory, it falls short, given the Churches teaching on the Nature of God.