Orignal Sin

[jonfawkes]

Hi jonfawkes,

You can baby proof your house, but I know of no child who has not fallen and bumped themselves and hurt themselves in any house no matter how diligence the house was “baby proofed”. There are corners on walls, objects in the house which the child bumps into, cuts and scrapes every child experiences and so on…does this make you evil because your child hurt themselves? Babies grow up into adults, (as Adam and Eve were), and make their own free will choices no matter how well you taught them, and they will make harmful decisions. It is how we grow as humans - we learn from our experiences (well - it is hoped we do )!

Adam and Eve were not babies. They were blessed with (rational) intelligence and were explained by God of the consequences that would happen should they disobey. They knew it and understood this. They misused the gifts that God blessed them with.

But I am not God. I don’t have the power to remove all obstacles nor the foreknowledge what will be the object that will be the cause of the injury. If I know that my child will crack his head open on the table, I’m going to remove the table. If I don’t, I’m willfully causing the event.

 

[CEM5]

But I am not God. I don’t have the power to remove all obstacles nor the foreknowledge what will be the object that will be the cause of the injury. If I know that my child will crack his head open on the table, I’m going to remove the table. If I don’t, I’m willfully causing the event.

Ahh! But there you acknowledge YOU are not God. God cannot sin, nor is evil allowed in God’s presence. Thus, nothing evil will exist in heaven - our ultimate destination for those who obey. That is why God allows us the time (a second chance per se) on earth to become a holy people.

You know that your wall could cause harm, yet you still live in your home. To be the willful cause of evil is if *you *PUSHED your child into the corner of the wall to cause direct injury. THAT is the meaning of willful. God did not “push” Adam and Eve to sin. It happened because of THEIR own willfullness (disobedience to God’s warning).

See, God does not tempt any of us, nor does He “push” us into harm. Harm exists because we humans willfully introduced it into the world, not God.

 

[jonfawkes]

I’m not sure what you are addressing. I am not the grand designer. I didn’t design the world that my child, house or I live in. I have to live somewhere. I’m bound by my finite, mortal existence. I am limited in what I can control. I can’t cause sharp objects to turn to mush if they become injurious. God doesn’t have these constraints He is infinite. Boundless.

Anything that is in the world is here by his design. He created Lucifer knowing that he would cause Evil in the world. Why is this different. God designed the system. He allowed evil to enter the world. The world was God’s design, not Man’s. The Garden was God’s design not Man’s. Free Will is God’s design not man’s. The Snake was God’s Design not Man’s. Man was God’s design, not man. The forethought and intent was in the creation.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’m not sure what you are addressing. I am not the grand designer. I didn’t design the world that my child, house or I live in. I have to live somewhere. I’m bound by my finite, mortal existence. I am limited in what I can control. I can’t cause sharp objects to turn to mush if they become injurious. God doesn’t have these constraints He is infinite. Boundless.

Anything that is in the world is here by his design. He created Lucifer knowing that he would cause Evil in the world. Why is this different. God designed the system. He allowed evil to enter the world. The world was God’s design, not Man’s. The Garden was God’s design not Man’s. Free Will is God’s design not man’s. The Snake was God’s Design not Man’s. Man was God’s design, not man. The forethought and intent was in the creation.

Even if your premise is correct, what is your point? You acknowlege that God is good and our savior and our judge. Why does it matter whether or not He created evil? If He did, it was for a purpose - to allow people to choose between good and evil.

The real point is that we must work for our salvation. Though God’s gifts are freely offered, it is up to us to choose or reject them.

 

[jonfawkes]

Even if your premise is correct, what is your point? .

That perhaps, we misunderstand what the story is telling us. The story precedes the explanation. Maybe the fall isn’t the point but the knowledge gained. More Prometheus than Pandora.

 

[fhansen]

That perhaps, we misunderstand what the story is telling us. The story precedes the explanation. Maybe the fall isn’t the point but the knowledge gained. More Prometheus than Pandora.

But how do you think the knowledge we have now is different? Or if the knowledge of good and evil is worth knowing, what is it?

 

[CEM5]

I’m not sure what you are addressing. I am not the grand designer. I didn’t design the world that my child, house or I live in. I have to live somewhere. I’m bound by my finite, mortal existence. I am limited in what I can control. I can’t cause sharp objects to turn to mush if they become injurious. God doesn’t have these constraints He is infinite. Boundless.

Anything that is in the world is here by his design. He created Lucifer knowing that he would cause Evil in the world. Why is this different. God designed the system. He allowed evil to enter the world. The world was God’s design, not Man’s. The Garden was God’s design not Man’s. Free Will is God’s design not man’s. The Snake was God’s Design not Man’s. Man was God’s design, not man. The forethought and intent was in the creation.

Hi jonfawkes,

I am addressing the fact that God created all things “good”. The first humans had everything they needed; their lives were comfortable; there was no illness; nothing physically harmful; they were in fellowship with God: The Garden contained was Paradise!!You (this includes all humans) are limited in what you can control in the physical world, however, you are not limited in controlling your spiritual self. You have the ability to control whether you will give in to temptation or not. Only you. You cannot blame God or anything or anyone else for the choices you make. Because of the sin of Adam, we all are subject to the physical world and its “evils” because WE humans introduced it by falling from God’s grace. God did not create the “snake” (a name for the fallen angel Lucifer). God created all the angels “good”, yet like humans, He gave them great intelligence and free will as well. He did not create them in His image though, and because of pride and jealousy, Lucifer chose to turn his back on God’s love. Thus he, along with 1/3 of the angels who chose Lucifer over God, were driven from heaven. See, Lucifer did not have any “tree” or any other entity to lure him or trick him, yet still he rebelled against God.

Angels were created to serve (minister) to us humans.

Hebrews 1:14 NRSA
Are not all angels spirits in the divine service, sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

The story of Genesis is the explanation of the origin of the world and of man: the human race, (primeval history), and in particular, the Hebrew people. Genesis contains many religious teachings of importance such as the preexistence of God; the transcendence of God; His goodness and wisdom; how through His power the world was created from nothing (all life exists because of Him) and of which we depend on Him. How man was the only creature created in His image and likeness - we are dear to Him; His children. How man lost his orginal state of innocence from pride and disobedience and the dire consequences of this fall from original grace. Nonetheless, there is the hope of the promise of reconciliation offered by God (which was fulfilled through Jesus), and how God formed a nation from a people who were to be an example of God’s blessings and the promise of all peoples belonging to this “nation” through the seed of Abraham. There are many more such truths/teachings.

blessings,
CEM

 

[larkin31]

Hi CHRISTINE77, I humbly thank you.

You are correct that people tend to take these stories of Genesis as literal. Genesis 1 is acutally a “poem”, and Genesis 2, 3 are based on “myth” which holds a moral truth/lesson.

Yikes.

Isn’t this contrary to dogma?

 

[larkin31]

That perhaps, we misunderstand what the story is telling us. The story precedes the explanation. Maybe the fall isn’t the point but the knowledge gained. More Prometheus than Pandora.

A great question. I would love to discuss it (in another thread, I suppose).

 

[larkin31]

Even if your premise is correct, what is your point? You acknowlege that God is good and our savior and our judge. Why does it matter whether or not He created evil? If He did, it was for a purpose - to allow people to choose between good and evil.

The real point is that we must work for our salvation. Though God’s gifts are freely offered, it is up to us to choose or reject them.

I agree with you, and have already stated that I, if I were a firm believer (and even when I was), had no problem with the idea that God created evil and also created imperfect people. It’s just that some folks here are denying this possibility, so the discussion continues on the reasoning for each side.

 

[jonfawkes]

A great question. I would love to discuss it (in another thread, I suppose).

This is my current reading - it may change tomorrow

It seems to me that it is more of a story to tell us of our nature (not sinful) but the reality of life - we live in a dualistic world, represented by “Good and Evil”, God cautions us and the snake entices. But they are both saying the same thing, once you enter you can’t turn back. One says You will Die the other You will be like God, But you will be changed.

Once we enter we with are then bound by duality.

Creation is dualistic so you have to have good with evil. Front with Back, Up with Down. etc. Any judgment of Good or Evil is solely from our perspective. The infinite is one.

The snake does deceive but not in same the way. It’s not to make us turn away from God but rather to see ourselves as separate. By embracing duality we separate ourselves from the infinite, which is God. We are now mired in this world.

All knowledge comes at a price. By accepting duality we become subject to it. We now have life and death. If you eat of the tree you will die.

We are thrown out of paradise but we are born to the world.

 

[Porcupine]

jon:

A fairly standard eastern view–Hindu-ish, among other things, I think. Nothing wrong in holding it, but you can see why you’ve not found a lot of agreement here on this RC forum. You’ve been given the fairly standard Christian view from a number of angles in this thread. It’s an age-old conversation to be sure, and there are a lot of opinions on it.

 

[jonfawkes]

I guess it’s good, since I am trying to determine if my crisis of faith is with Catholicism or Christianity or religion in general. I guess maybe I’m a Hindu …but I like eating cows.

I still don’t get how you circumvent that God maker of creation didn’t make something in creation.

 

[Porcupine]

I guess it’s good, since I am trying to determine if my crisis of faith is with Catholicism or Christianity or religion in general. I guess maybe I’m a Hindu …but I like eating cows.

I still don’t get how you circumvent that God maker of creation didn’t make something in creation.

I like cows, too. Frankly, there’s a lot in some of the Hindu-based philosophies that makes a lot of sense to me. I’m not a very good Catholic/Christian. My entire adulthood has been an ongoing crisis of faith. I’ve thought about it a lot and settled on a few bare principles that I can live with. It’s fairly cold comfort, I suppose, but it’s what I’ve got.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I guess it’s good, since I am trying to determine if my crisis of faith is with Catholicism or Christianity or religion in general. I guess maybe I’m a Hindu …but I like eating cows.

I still don’t get how you circumvent that God maker of creation didn’t make something in creation.

Actually it sounds more like Mormonism. They believe that it was good that the fall happened so that men and women could learn more and have children. I don’t know the whole of it, but it’s something like you are saying.

 

[larkin31]

This is my current reading - it may change tomorrow

It seems to me that it is more of a story to tell us of our nature (not sinful) but the reality of life - we live in a dualistic world, represented by “Good and Evil”, God cautions us and the snake entices. But they are both saying the same thing, once you enter you can’t turn back. One says You will Die the other You will be like God, But you will be changed.

Once we enter we with are then bound by duality.

Creation is dualistic so you have to have good with evil. Front with Back, Up with Down. etc. Any judgment of Good or Evil is solely from our perspective. The infinite is one.

The snake does deceive but not in same the way. It’s not to make us turn away from God but rather to see ourselves as separate. By embracing duality we separate ourselves from the infinite, which is God. We are now mired in this world.

All knowledge comes at a price. By accepting duality we become subject to it. We now have life and death. If you eat of the tree you will die.

We are thrown out of paradise but we are born to the world.

Very intriguing. Thanks for sharing.

 

[PRmerger]

All knowledge comes at a price. By accepting duality we become subject to it. We now have life and death. If you eat of the tree you will die.

Pope JPII has written extensively on this.

It is not “knowledge” that was denied to us, or that “comes at a price”, but rather the power to decide what is good and evil. For that belongs to God alone.

 

[jonfawkes]

Pope JPII has written extensively on this.

It is not “knowledge” that was denied to us, or that “comes at a price”, but rather the power to decide what is good and evil. For that belongs to God alone.

From that document

I. Freedom and Law

“Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat” (Gen 2:17)

1. In the Book of Genesis we read: "The Lord God commanded the man, saying, ‘You may eat freely of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die’ " (Gen 2:16-17).

With this imagery, Revelation teaches that the power to decide what is good and what is evil** does not belong to man, but to God alone.**

I must be on to something

This also seems to support knowing duality through the singularity of the infinite

In his journey towards God, the One who “alone is good”, man must freely do good and avoid evil. But in order to accomplish this he must be able to distinguish good from evil. And this takes place above all thanks to the light of natural reason, the reflection in man of the splendour of God’s countenance. Thus Saint Thomas, commenting on a verse of Psalm 4, writes: “After saying: Offer right sacrifices (Ps 4:5), as if some had then asked him what right works were, the Psalmist adds: There are many who say: Who will make us see good? And in reply to the question he says: The light of your face, Lord, is signed upon us, thereby implying that the light of natural reason whereby we discern good from evil, which is the function of the natural law, is nothing else but an imprint on us of the divine light”.76 It also becomes clear why this law is called the natural law: it receives this name not because it refers to the nature of irrational beings but because the reason which promulgates it is proper to human nature.77

 

[PRmerger]

I must be on to something

Indeed you are! It is God alone who “declares” what is good and evil. It is for man to discern this.

 

[PRmerger]

I still don’t get how you circumvent that God maker of creation didn’t make something in creation.

It’s a similar question you’re asking, jon, to the question oft asked by students with a beginner’s understanding of philosophy. You know the “If God is omnipotent can he make a rock so big he can’t lift it?” question.

The answer is proposed by CS Lewis (and others such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, but I like Lewis’ pithy answer) in that the above is a nonsensical question. Putting “Can God” before a nonsensical phrase does not cease to make it nonsense.