Orthodox and Anglicans-Compare & Contrast Primacy of Peter/Keys/Rock/Authority

[Soldier_X]

Soldier X,

I can see how Anglicans may want a more Orthodox-style polity; but will it work? At this point in history, I think the Orthodox have done a far better job, than the Anglican Communion, in maintaining “orthodox” Christianity, without submitting to a universal type of primacy.

I just can’t see how the Orthodox approach to ecclesiology is going to work for those in such sharp disagreement, even within TEC. Those who are leaving TEC and moving in directions such as AMiA, really don’t want to be identified with TEC, period.

No, you’re right; it won’t work. I only stated what is, or what seems to be…not what ought to be. The Orthodox aren’t called that for nothing. We Anglicans tend to like our local and regional leadership, but one bad super-leader is just as terrible as many bad diocesan leaders. Honestly, I have almost no confidence left in Anglican leadership anywhere. Even the “good guys” seem far, far too interested in generic, charismatic Evangelicalism. I don’t like the Pentecostal/charismatic direction of supposedly conservative Anglicanism, but it seems like almost no local or national bishops want to hear it or change that direction.

So that brings us to this point: if I didn’t like something a Catholic or Orthodox bishop said, would I feel the same way about it that I feel about a TEC or an ACNA bishop?

Nope.

Why is that, I wonder? Does something deep inside tell me that Rome or Orthodoxy have “better” or more trustworthy bishops? Do I consider them more official? And if so, what’s the next step?

But to bring this back to the topic: you are correct. Anglican-style polity has managed to fail in just about every way imaginable. On a practical level, it seems that Anglicanism’s primacy is not found in bishops, or in the Church, or in a true Confession like Peter’s; but rather, it is found in whims, desires, and feelings of powerful movers and shakers. And there’s nothing the least bit comforting about that.

X

 

[Harpazo]

I think a lot of more anti-papal Anglicans or Anglicans with deep-seeded distrust toward the Catholic magisterium are always more likely to explore Orthodoxy with nary a thought of becoming Catholic. Oddly enough, it seems to me Catholicism has far more in common with Anglicanism than Anglicanism has with Orthodoxy. First of all, the view of Original Sin and the Atonment (more Augustinian and Ambrosian) within the Anglican framework ARE more akin to Catholicism. The devotions of more anglo-Catholic parishes and even some regular Anglican parishes are more like the Catholic Church at Lent (stations, benediction, unlevened bread) plus the layout and inner workings are more Catholic it seems. I think Anglican to Catholic is actually more of a lateral move than Anglican to Orthodox. A lot of Anglicans see Orthodox as similar to themselves since they lack a pope and are episcopal in structure. I’m not so sure.

There were days back at the turn of the century when Orthodoxy was first coming to the States with immigrants that some hierarchs would tell their flock to go to an Anglican mass if for some reason Divine Liturgy could not be celebrated. This changed in the 70s and was discouraged, although I can see why.

I understand a lot of what you are saying. There are very many similarities between High Church Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism. Some Orthodox see Roman Catholics and Protestants as two sides of the same coin. They just don’t see any real difference between the two. You and I would say that there are miles between the RCC and some Protestant sectarians. However, on the other hand, some Roman Catholics and Protestants would see Orthodoxy as completely foreign altogether.

The point is, there is a completely different phronema, or mindset, in Orthodoxy than in the modern Western Christian churches. This is not to say that it is insurmountable. There are a lot of Anglican converts to Orthodoxy that are rediscovering Orthodox roots in England. For example, many services have been composed to English Saints and those of the British Isles that were unknown to Orthodox for centuries. Many Orthodox are mimicking their monastic rules and reading their lives finding much inspiration. We may not be as far off as you may think.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Anna_Scott]

I think a lot of more anti-papal Anglicans or Anglicans with deep-seeded distrust toward the Catholic magisterium are always more likely to explore Orthodoxy with nary a thought of becoming Catholic. Oddly enough, it seems to me Catholicism has far more in common with Anglicanism than Anglicanism has with Orthodoxy. First of all, the view of Original Sin and the Atonment (more Augustinian and Ambrosian) within the Anglican framework ARE more akin to Catholicism. The devotions of more anglo-Catholic parishes and even some regular Anglican parishes are more like the Catholic Church at Lent (stations, benediction, unlevened bread) plus the layout and inner workings are more Catholic it seems. I think Anglican to Catholic is actually more of a lateral move than Anglican to Orthodox. A lot of Anglicans see Orthodox as similar to themselves since they lack a pope and are episcopal in structure. I’m not so sure.

gurney,

I can see Catholicism being closer to Anglicanism; but it may also depend on the Diocese and even the Parish. As I’ve said before, our Rector certainly leans towards Eastern thought. I noticed that after only a few of his classes. He also uses many Eastern Prayers and did an Eastern fast for Lent. The first time I had an appointment in his office, I was surprised by all the Eastern Icons on the walls; and many Eastern books in his office library. I think one reason it is so difficult for me to leave this conservative Episcopal Church is because it seems to incorporate the best of Catholicism and Eastern thought, with only a hint of Protestantism. I’ve often wondered if our Rector would convert to EO, if he decided to leave TEC. Right now, he is working to fight for orthodox Christianity from within. He’s definitely in the minority, and, sadly, our Bishop is liberal. If our conservative Rector leaves, I’ll be the first to bolt.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

No, you’re right; it won’t work. I only stated what is, or what seems to be…not what ought to be. The Orthodox aren’t called that for nothing. We Anglicans tend to like our local and regional leadership, but one bad super-leader is just as terrible as many bad diocesan leaders. Honestly, I have almost no confidence left in Anglican leadership anywhere. Even the “good guys” seem far, far too interested in generic, charismatic Evangelicalism. I don’t like the Pentecostal/charismatic direction of supposedly conservative Anglicanism, but it seems like almost no local or national bishops want to hear it or change that direction.

So that brings us to this point: if I didn’t like something a Catholic or Orthodox bishop said, would I feel the same way about it that I feel about a TEC or an ACNA bishop?

Nope.

Why is that, I wonder? Does something deep inside tell me that Rome or Orthodoxy have “better” or more trustworthy bishops? Do I consider them more official? And if so, what’s the next step?

But to bring this back to the topic: you are correct. Anglican-style polity has managed to fail in just about every way imaginable. On a practical level, it seems that Anglicanism’s primacy is not found in bishops, or in the Church, or in a true Confession like Peter’s; but rather, it is found in whims, desires, and feelings of powerful movers and shakers. And there’s nothing the least bit comforting about that.

X

Mr. X,

I did get what you were saying, just didn’t do a good job of communicating it. I think once I start writing about the Anglican turmoil, I can’t seem to stop.

You are so right about the Anglican source of primacy. It seems TEC has created a new brand of ecclesiology and it isn’t rooted in Christian orthodoxy. I guess you could call it secular ecclesiology.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m not so negative about the ACNA. There are churches beginning to move out of the Diocese of the Holy Spirit which is sort of an on-deck circle if you will into their permanent diocese homes. The process is working and the ACNA is more and more established by the week. There are problems and issues for the ACNA which await hard work and difficult heart wrenching decision making. Show me a church who doesn’t deal with these things eventually. I sincerely hope and pray that the Archbishop of Canterbury will be pushed off the fence by the nudging of the Holy Spirit and begin to work for the good of the whole Communion. This just might be the preliminary look of what is to come.

Cranmer2010,

I appreciate your optimism.

I agree that the Archbishop does need to get off the fence; and he could certainly use our prayers for his openness and obedience to the Holy Spirit.

Thanks so much,
Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Anna,

If you entered my house, a two-story, you’d quickly notice that almost ALL of my Christian decor in our house is Orthodox. I have iconography downstairs and up in plenty of places. My eldest son has an icon of St. Luke by his bed, Caleb has an icon of St. John (his middle name), and Veronica has an icon of St. Veronica holding her veil. Their godparents, Bruce and Helen (both Catholics, not Orthodox) bought them for the kids. I have several icons in our master bedroom. I prefer Eastern art ANYDAY to Roman. I’m not a big fan of Roman Catholic art. It’s so rococo and frilly. The inside of some of those churches in Europe look like frilly birthday cake. I do like Gothic Roman Catholic cathedrals with barrel vaults, etc. I love the pieta, which I have in my entry way in our living room by the front door. I also love the Cross of San Damiano. But most of all, I like Eastern art.

Now to enter my house you might think I know more about Orthodoxy than St. John Chrysostom or Basil. Actually I don’t. I just like the art! LOL…

Your rector might be a “fan” of some Orthodox trappings but press him hard enough about the depths of Orthodoxy and its theology and you might be surprised. I cannot imagine why he wouldn’t have jumped ship to Orthodoxy if he even believed 25% of Orthodox theology and morality. He’s stayed in TEC for years so that is a tad suspect to me.

GKC and I have commented and agreed for years about one thing: if these supposed “conservative” or “Catholic/Orthodox-appreciating” clergy have stayed in TEC for this many years and put up with it, there is a certain amount of toxic contamination and suspicion to be had from our end. How does one appreciate Catholic or Orthodox thinking and yet remain with a body that is pro-W.O. or pro-gay or out in left field about the very nature of Christ? TEC is totally in the twilight zone when it comes to morality and theology anymore. I agree with GKC that the “real” orthodox/traditional Anglicans were able to see the writing on the wall 30 years ago in St. Louis and they jumped ship from TEC liked greased lightning. How even my bishop, John-David Schofield, has tolerated the insanity and left wing politicking and outlandish Spongian, Schiori nonsense, indabas, millenium goals, all that foolery, I’ll never know. REC and TAC had the right idea.

I’d question the commitment the rector has to the principles of Orthodoxy if he has maintained even a mild relationship with TEC. Orthodoxy and TEC are about as similar as William F. Buckley and Liza Minelli

gurney,

I can see Catholicism being closer to Anglicanism; but it may also depend on the Diocese and even the Parish. As I’ve said before, our Rector certainly leans towards Eastern thought. I noticed that after only a few of his classes. He also uses many Eastern Prayers and did an Eastern fast for Lent. The first time I had an appointment in his office, I was surprised by all the Eastern Icons on the walls; and many Eastern books in his office library. I think one reason it is so difficult for me to leave this conservative Episcopal Church is because it seems to incorporate the best of Catholicism and Eastern thought, with only a hint of Protestantism. I’ve often wondered if our Rector would convert to EO, if he decided to leave TEC. Right now, he is working to fight for orthodox Christianity from within. He’s definitely in the minority, and, sadly, our Bishop is liberal. If our conservative Rector leaves, I’ll be the first to bolt.

Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I can see why very clearly, my brother in Christ. Two words: women’s ordination…the death knell of the Anglican-Orthodox and Anglican-Catholic dialogues in the 70’s…RIP

There were days back at the turn of the century when Orthodoxy was first coming to the States with immigrants that some hierarchs would tell their flock to go to an Anglican mass if for some reason Divine Liturgy could not be celebrated. This changed in the 70s and was discouraged, although I can see why.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Nine_Two]

I think a lot of more anti-papal Anglicans or Anglicans with deep-seeded distrust toward the Catholic magisterium are always more likely to explore Orthodoxy with nary a thought of becoming Catholic. Oddly enough, it seems to me Catholicism has far more in common with Anglicanism than Anglicanism has with Orthodoxy. First of all, the view of Original Sin and the Atonment (more Augustinian and Ambrosian) within the Anglican framework ARE more akin to Catholicism. The devotions of more anglo-Catholic parishes and even some regular Anglican parishes are more like the Catholic Church at Lent (stations, benediction, unlevened bread) plus the layout and inner workings are more Catholic it seems. I think Anglican to Catholic is actually more of a lateral move than Anglican to Orthodox. A lot of Anglicans see Orthodox as similar to themselves since they lack a pope and are episcopal in structure. I’m not so sure.

This assessment is absolutely correct, for someone who holds the beliefs that would allow a person to become Orthodox (such as Real Presence, Apostolic Succession, male priesthood), they would already be much closer to Catholics in everything they are used to. The “rite” used by Anglicans is itself an adaptation of that used by Catholics.

I think looking at the organization of the church is a bit of a strawman though. While both are decentralized, Anglicans have a titular head, and a central body which does have the theoretical power to expel a province. Orthodox have several independent central organizations which each has the power to suspend communion with the others when deemed necessary. Within the Orthodox Church, common belief is held together almost through the rallying cry of “orthodox thought” alone, something Anglicans don’t have.

 

[Nine_Two]

I can see why very clearly, my brother in Christ. Two words: women’s ordination…the death knell of the Anglican-Orthodox and Anglican-Catholic dialogues in the 70’s…RIP

I seem to recall reading, and it may have been in Ware’s “The Orthodox Church”, although I don’t think so, that up until the '70s there was serious talk of unification. As soon as Anglican Churches started ordaining women the Orthodox Churches immediately cut off all talk of unification.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Nine,

I didn’t attempt to set up a “strawman” here, did I? Honestly I don’t recall mentioning the actual polity of the organizational setup? Maybe I did.

I don’t think, even if I did mention the actual structure, that it’d be a strawman. Anglicanism is not like Catholicism OR Orthodoxy in any way shape of form when it comes to organization. These provinces in the AC are so loosey-goosey and overlapping now. You have Nigeria running North American churches, REC, AMIA, CANA, and other common cause partners criss-crossing, women’s ordination allowed here but not there, women priests but not women bishops, constituent members and mere “ministry partners” etc. Heck, the diocese here in San Joaquin (central California) for a while was not only ACNA but also the Church of the Southern Cone of Argentina!? There were floating bishops, they were called, in the Church of England giving pastoral care to traditionalists while liberal loons got different care in the same area.

This is nothing like Orthodoxy or Catholicism. So I wasn’t trying to strawman anything.

I think looking at the organization of the church is a bit of a strawman though. While both are decentralized, Anglicans have a titular head, and a central body which does have the theoretical power to expel a province. Orthodox have several independent central organizations which each has the power to suspend communion with the others when deemed necessary. Within the Orthodox Church, common belief is held together almost through the rallying cry of “orthodox thought” alone, something Anglicans don’t have.

 

[Nine_Two]

Hi Nine,

I didn’t attempt to set up a “strawman” here, did I? Honestly I don’t recall mentioning the actual polity of the organizational setup? Maybe I did.

I don’t think, even if I did mention the actual structure, that it’d be a strawman. Anglicanism is not like Catholicism OR Orthodoxy in any way shape of form when it comes to organization. These provinces in the AC are so loosey-goosey and overlapping now. You have Nigeria running North American churches, REC, AMIA, CANA, and other common cause partners criss-crossing, women’s ordination allowed here but not there, women priests but not women bishops, constituent members and mere “ministry partners” etc. Heck, the diocese here in San Joaquin (central California) for a while was not only ACNA but also the Church of the Southern Cone of Argentina!? There were floating bishops, they were called, in the Church of England giving pastoral care to traditionalists while liberal loons got different care in the same area.

This is nothing like Orthodoxy or Catholicism. So I wasn’t trying to strawman anything.

Sorry Gurney, I wasn’t accusing you of making a strawman, I meant that people often say that Orthodox and Anglican Churches are so close because of their decentralized structure, but as you say that isn’t true.

I was agreeing with you.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Nine,

Oh no, my brother, no offense was taken whatsoever. I know your posts and tone and sincerity by now well enough to know that you weren’t accusing me. I just wanted to explain myself because perhaps I hadn’t done a very good job!

Sorry Gurney, I wasn’t accusing you of making a strawman, I meant that people often say that Orthodox and Anglican Churches are so close because of their decentralized structure, but as you say that isn’t true.

I was agreeing with you.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna,

If you entered my house, a two-story, you’d quickly notice that almost ALL of my Christian decor in our house is Orthodox. I have iconography downstairs and up in plenty of places. My eldest son has an icon of St. Luke by his bed, Caleb has an icon of St. John (his middle name), and Veronica has an icon of St. Veronica holding her veil. Their godparents, Bruce and Helen (both Catholics, not Orthodox) bought them for the kids. I have several icons in our master bedroom. I prefer Eastern art ANYDAY to Roman. I’m not a big fan of Roman Catholic art. It’s so rococo and frilly. The inside of some of those churches in Europe look like frilly birthday cake. I do like Gothic Roman Catholic cathedrals with barrel vaults, etc. I love the pieta, which I have in my entry way in our living room by the front door. I also love the Cross of San Damiano. But most of all, I like Eastern art.

Now to enter my house you might think I know more about Orthodoxy than St. John Chrysostom or Basil. Actually I don’t. I just like the art! LOL…

Your rector might be a “fan” of some Orthodox trappings but press him hard enough about the depths of Orthodoxy and its theology and you might be surprised. I cannot imagine why he wouldn’t have jumped ship to Orthodoxy if he even believed 25% of Orthodox theology and morality. He’s stayed in TEC for years so that is a tad suspect to me.

GKC and I have commented and agreed for years about one thing: if these supposed “conservative” or “Catholic/Orthodox-appreciating” clergy have stayed in TEC for this many years and put up with it, there is a certain amount of toxic contamination and suspicion to be had from our end. How does one appreciate Catholic or Orthodox thinking and yet remain with a body that is pro-W.O. or pro-gay or out in left field about the very nature of Christ? TEC is totally in the twilight zone when it comes to morality and theology anymore. I agree with GKC that the “real” orthodox/traditional Anglicans were able to see the writing on the wall 30 years ago in St. Louis and they jumped ship from TEC liked greased lightning. How even my bishop, John-David Schofield, has tolerated the insanity and left wing politicking and outlandish Spongian, Schiori nonsense, indabas, millenium goals, all that foolery, I’ll never know. REC and TAC had the right idea.

I’d question the commitment the rector has to the principles of Orthodoxy if he has maintained even a mild relationship with TEC. Orthodoxy and TEC are about as similar as William F. Buckley and Liza Minelli

Well, gurney, there is a good possibility you are right; and I just haven’t wanted to believe he remains in TEC for the wrong reasons. It’s interesting to find your post this morning; because last night I was thinking about this whole mess in TEC and wondering if I should leave, despite my great affection for my church. I don’t know. It’s tough. If I attended this Episcopal Church without following the news, I would have no idea same-sex ordination or even the ordination of women existed in TEC. The truly sad thing is that there are charter members of this Episcopal Church who go back almost 50 years. I’m sure they could never have dreamed such things could happen in TEC.

Interesting to hear about your Eastern Art. My house is seriously lacking in any type of religious art–a throw back to my Baptist upbringing I’m sure.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m not so negative about the ACNA. There are churches beginning to move out of the Diocese of the Holy Spirit which is sort of an on-deck circle if you will into their permanent diocese homes. The process is working and the ACNA is more and more established by the week. There are problems and issues for the ACNA which await hard work and difficult heart wrenching decision making. Show me a church who doesn’t deal with these things eventually. I sincerely hope and pray that the Archbishop of Canterbury will be pushed off the fence by the nudging of the Holy Spirit and begin to work for the good of the whole Communion. This just might be the preliminary look of what is to come.

Cranmer,

I was wondering what you think will happen if TEC is forced out of the communion with the Archbishop. Will Canterbury tighten the belt to preserve orthodoxy?

Or if Canterbury caves and allows liberalism to inviltrate, will those who are now in AMiA, Forward in Faith, etc., remain in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury at all? Will their structure of authority become more like the Orthodox?

Seems like this could go in several different directions.

Anna

 

[JohnnyReb]

I can see why very clearly, my brother in Christ. Two words: women’s ordination…the death knell of the Anglican-Orthodox and Anglican-Catholic dialogues in the 70’s…RIP

Orthodox Bishop Timothy Ware doesn’t see it that way, according to what he says in his book “The Orthodox Church” although he clearly says it was a setback for sure. It sure didn’t help things out!

 

[JohnnyReb]

I seem to recall reading, and it may have been in Ware’s “The Orthodox Church”, although I don’t think so, that up until the '70s there was serious talk of unification. As soon as Anglican Churches started ordaining women the Orthodox Churches immediately cut off all talk of unification.

That’s what I understand, (I didn’t see your post), that reunification talks were killed, but interfaith dialogue still remains. Another hinderance is the “diversity” of belief found among Anglicans. There is a need for more uniformity among Anglicans. The irony in this is that Catholics will have fruitful interfaith dialogue with groups like Pentecostals, who unapologetically ordain women-but have no priesthood.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Well, gurney, there is a good possibility you are right; and I just haven’t wanted to believe he remains in TEC for the wrong reasons. It’s interesting to find your post this morning; because last night I was thinking about this whole mess in TEC and wondering if I should leave, despite my great affection for my church. I don’t know. It’s tough. If I attended this Episcopal Church without following the news, I would have no idea same-sex ordination or even the ordination of women existed in TEC. The truly sad thing is that there are charter members of this Episcopal Church who go back almost 50 years. I’m sure they could never have dreamed such things could happen in TEC.

Interesting to hear about your Eastern Art. My house is seriously lacking in any type of religious art–a throw back to my Baptist upbringing I’m sure.

Anna

You know Anna, I sort of feel the same way. Its shocking how much news the heterodox beliefs and practices-W.O, pro-gay theology, in the TEC get. My parish would never dream of embracing such non sense, and our rector’s sermons sound no different than the ones I used to hear in my Catholic Church, or from sermons in Baptist Churches and Assemblies of God churches of my past. The members range from very conservative to fairly liberal in the church.

I think its good that these errors are being called out. They are errors in teaching and practice. I struggle with the W.O stuff, but that’s fine with me.

If TEC is forced out of communion with Canterbury, I imagine that more balanced parishes would adopt a more Orthodox (not eastern) platform and get rid of the left wing nonsense. The rest would be forced to float out there with no ecclesiastical support, a scary place to be honestly. They would probably lose members at that point.

When it comes to the issue of W.O and homosexuality, I see them as seperate, because even conservative Anglicans, such as the Nigerians, ordain women. Likewise, many conservative Protestant denominations do as well, with embracing pro-gay agendas. Pro-gay agendas involve a moral issue, W.O involves an errant practice, but not a compromise in morals.

 

[Cranmer2010]

Cranmer,

I was wondering what you think will happen if TEC is forced out of the communion with the Archbishop. Will Canterbury tighten the belt to preserve orthodoxy?

Or if Canterbury caves and allows liberalism to inviltrate, will those who are now in AMiA, Forward in Faith, etc., remain in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury at all? Will their structure of authority become more like the Orthodox?

Seems like this could go in several different directions.

Anna

If I were a betting man, I would say that at some point, Archbishop Williams is going to take some actions against the best interest of TEC which will be the beginning of the falling dominos eventually leading to TEC’s ousting. This of course won’t happen until the ACNA is officially in the Communion to help force the issue. That’s what I believe. Of course, this is also the vesry best of my wishful thinking, but anything is possible with God.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I have heard of Ware but never read this book or any of his stuff really. I’d love to hear what he has to say. If W.O. isn’t one of the biggies, clue me in in your next post. Give me the Reader’s Digest version of what he says. I’d be interested to hear. Thanks!

Orthodox Bishop Timothy Ware doesn’t see it that way, according to what he says in his book “The Orthodox Church” although he clearly says it was a setback for sure. It sure didn’t help things out!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You touch on a few important points that I happen to agree with. This is why I think ACNA is, unfortunately, doomed to end up in schism within itself in the long term. The Anglican Communion is coming apart. Anyone knows that. Realignment is occurring.

Some people think in here that TEC is going to be punished, censored, or cut out of the AC by ++Williams? NO WAY…You can put that in writing, red ink. TEC will not be punished or cut off from the AC by Williams for one big reason—$$$ Just like the Pink Floyd song…“moooooney!”

TEC is one of the biggest and most $$$-loaded provinces of Anglicanism and they contribute large sums of it to Anglican causes and to the AC. Not gonna happen.

ACNA is going to buckle and collapse because they’re a microcosm of TEC without homosexuals. They have loosey-goosey folks like Roseberry and his Plano “megachurch” ordaining these Calvary Chapel folks who have NO clue about the priesthood or the sacrificial ministry of said office. They’re not priests, they’re a bunch of happy-clappy TBN-like yahoos who want the evangelical cause spread. +Iker has already said he is fed up with women being ordained (God bless that man!) and that leaving ACNA is a possibility if it gets racheted up with more W.O. Meanwhile ++Duncan ordains women faster than selling hotcakes. AMIA has already bailed on ACNA and calls themselves friends of ACNA but not members. You have too many chiefs, not enough indians. Guys like Martin Minns just stir the pot and I just don’t trust 'em.

I think ACNA will eventually be accepted by the ABC as a member of the AC. But in reality, TEC will remain so as well. The Anglican Communion will become a bipolar communion of people who are diametrically opposed to one another with nothing but loathing and lawsuits (from TEC only). It’s absurd.

As I said before ACNA consists of a lot of liberals. They may be “conservative” for Anglicanism, but by Orthodox or Catholic standards, especially Catholic standards, they’re very left-leaning. These folks were in TEC for decades. They put up with Spong’s sickening blather, pro-choice liberalism, feminist junk, liberation theology, individualism and humanism, divorce/remarriage, and every type of unethical thing. I find it hard to believe that these bishops and priests and deacons lived amongst these crazy folks for decades without contamination by them. I contend that many stuck around TEC because of pensions/retirement issues and they were scared to bail because of $$$. It was only when they worked out the finances and ACNA looked doable that they bailed. My rector in our town was obsessed with the $$$ end of it.

It took so long for San Joaquin to actually make up its mind to leave. Our parish here even let people vote on it. For God’s sake, the whole diocese was allowed to vote at a parish level. Leaving TEC should’ve happened 12-15 years prior, minimum.

You know Anna, I sort of feel the same way. Its shocking how much news the heterodox beliefs and practices-W.O, pro-gay theology, in the TEC get. My parish would never dream of embracing such non sense, and our rector’s sermons sound no different than the ones I used to hear in my Catholic Church, or from sermons in Baptist Churches and Assemblies of God churches of my past. The members range from very conservative to fairly liberal in the church.

I think its good that these errors are being called out. They are errors in teaching and practice. I struggle with the W.O stuff, but that’s fine with me.

If TEC is forced out of communion with Canterbury, I imagine that more balanced parishes would adopt a more Orthodox (not eastern) platform and get rid of the left wing nonsense. The rest would be forced to float out there with no ecclesiastical support, a scary place to be honestly. They would probably lose members at that point.

When it comes to the issue of W.O and homosexuality, I see them as seperate, because even conservative Anglicans, such as the Nigerians, ordain women. Likewise, many conservative Protestant denominations do as well, with embracing pro-gay agendas. Pro-gay agendas involve a moral issue, W.O involves an errant practice, but not a compromise in morals.