Orthodox and birth control

[Mickey]

This is true.

Then please stop pretending that you are in the know.

I merely said they “allowed” them, which is a statement based entirely on the posts of Orthodox Christians on this thread.

Ecclesiatical divorces are granted after every effort has been made to council the couple to stay together. It is an act of mercy. It is a much better system than pretending that the marriage never ocurred through a decree of nullity. Contraception (condom use only) may be allowed in extreme circumstances. It is very rare and involves in depth counselling between the couple and their spiritual Father.

And I would be right.

Would you?

Contracept if you want.

Although I may be able to attempt to make a case for contraception, I do not practice it. My spiritual Father advizes against it and the Holy Orthodox Church frowns upon it. As a Catholic, my wife and I used to practice NFP until we came to the realization that it was also “birth control”–a more effective form than condoms!

Throwing stones happens when someone ignorant of Holy Orthodoxy begins bashing the Apostolic Church with opinions based on ignorance. Stop throwing stones please.

That’s fine. I’m sure that’s how it is in practice in a lot of the U.S. I have to "throw stones’ on this one though and say that it isn’t right. An annulment is not the dissolution of a valid marriage. Just because it functions as a type of “Catholic Divorce” in a lot of places doesn’t mean that that’s what it is in principle.

Call it what you will. It looks like a legal justification for Ecclesiatical divorce to me.

Go in peace, and don’t worry about it, because there’s a 0% chance that an online thread is going to change your mind on these issues.

This is an accurate and true statement.

I will pray for Mallory.

S’nami Boh!

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Yes.
I am confused. Contraception defeats the procreative act–correct? If NFP is a more effective contraceptive than condoms–why is it approved by the Catholic Church? Is there an infallible statement from the papacy which condones NFP?
Yes. The **ACT **is altered.
Are there infallible statements to support this?

You are, indeed.

 

[Mickey]

So not having sex is a form of CONTRACEPTION? What nonsense is spewing from your fingertips!

Wha? :whacky:

the Holy Spirit, The Lord the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. It is written for you to read at St Peter’s Square.

Contraception does not allow this; it shuts of the door to Him.

As does NFP (for birth control purposes).

 

[Mickey]

You are, indeed.

Only when you or Mallory try to explain things.

PS–Enlarging letters does not make an argument more palatable.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Yeah. Retroactively. :nope:
His argument is completely valid. Annulments are a legalistic system to justify divorce by allowing the Church to proclaim, (retroactively) that the marriage was never valid to begin with.

Talk about a win-win situation for all parties involved. First of all you never have to accept any culpability and repent of the sin of breaking up a marriage because presto!!! the Church says you were never married in the first place. No need to repent, no need whatsoever to turn back to God. Oh and all that sex you were having while you weren’t married, do worry about that either, it wasn’t a sin because you didn’t realize you were never married in the first place.

Talk about condescending and arrogant! They concoct a system in which two people can have sex out of marriage for twenty years, can have a civil divorce and no one is has committed any sin! It’s a miracle! Then they sanctimoniously criticize us for allowing divorce in much narrower circumstances than they will allow their “no-fault” annulments when we require at least a year of penance before the innocent party can remarry and the guilty party can never remarry.

Unbelievable…

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[PrayforMallory]

Then please stop pretending that you are in the know.

I never pretended to know anything. I was expressing shock that the Orthodox caved on abc and divorce. I didn’t know this before this thread.

Ecclesiatical divorces are granted after every effort has been made to council the couple to stay together. It is an act of mercy. It is a much better system than pretending that the marriage never ocurred through a decree of nullity. Contraception (condom use only) may be allowed in extreme circumstances. It is very rare and involves in depth counselling between the couple and their spiritual Father.

That sounds like a relativistic take to me. As for nullity, you are talking about an abuse, not a moral teaching. As for condoms, why stop there? Why wouldn’t the pill be acceptable under certain circumstances? Why not sterilization? Why not focus on principle instead of the practicality of temporalities?

Although I may be able to attempt to make a case for contraception, I do not practice it. My spiritual Father advizes against it and the Holy Orthodox Church frowns upon it. As a Catholic, my wife and I used to practice NFP until we came to the realization that it was also “birth control”–a more effective form than condoms!

Throwing stones happens when someone ignorant of Holy Orthodoxy begins bashing the Apostolic Church with opinions based on ignorance. Stop throwing stones please.

I wasn’t aware I was. I was simply shocked, because I assumed the Orthodox were even more ardent about not changing teaching.

This is an accurate and true statement.

It still stands, too, even though I replied to your post. I really doubt anyone can become convinced by argument. I’m sure you have good reasons for what you believe in.

I will pray for Mallory.

Thank you.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Only when you or Mallory try to explain things.

PS–Enlarging letters does not make an argument more palatable.

What did I try to explain? I never claimed to be the teacher of the Orthodox. I just thought we agreed on issues pertaining to the social war in the West.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I wasn’t aware I was. I was simply shocked, because I assumed the Orthodox were even more ardent about not changing teaching.

We are ardent about not changing teaching. We just disagree in what the teaching consist of. You guys view everything as some kind of immutable law that can never under any circumstances be broken. We look at the intent of the law as well as the letter.

I have a question for you. In Catholic teaching under what circumstances is a couple allowed to use NFP and what is the intent of NFP?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Mickey]

Talk about a win-win situation for all parties involved. First of all you never have to accept any culpability and repent of the sin of breaking up a marriage because presto!!! the Church says you were never married in the first place. No need to repent, no need whatsoever to turn back to God. Oh and all that sex you were having while you weren’t married, do worry about that either, it wasn’t a sin because you didn’t realize you were never married in the first place.

Talk about condescending and arrogant! They concoct a system in which two people can have sex out of marriage for twenty years, can have a civil divorce and no one is has committed any sin! It’s a miracle! Then they sanctimoniously criticize us for allowing divorce in much narrower circumstances than they will allow their “no-fault” annulments when we require at least a year of penance before the innocent party can remarry and the guilty party can never remarry.

Unbelievable…

Indeed!

 

[Mickey]

I was expressing shock that the Orthodox caved on abc and divorce.

No one "caved " on anything.

That sounds like a relativistic take to me.

That is because you do not know Holy Orthodoxy.

As for nullity, you are talking about an abuse, not a moral teaching.

So Rome allows for widespead abuse?

Why wouldn’t the pill be acceptable under certain circumstances?

The pill is usually abortifacient

I’m sure you have good reasons for what you believe in…

It is called love, mercy, forgiveness, compassion and truth–it is called the Holy Orthodox Church.

 

[Peter_J]

This is starting to feel like holding a conversation in a shooting gallery – so if I start to talk fast or seem unusually nervous, don’t pay any mind.

Contraception means AGAINST conception. When I have used NFP I’m not stopping conception. I am using the naturally nonfertile part of my cycle to avoid conception–I can do this whether I know it’s fertile or not, because it’s licit to have marital relations during ALL parts of a woman’s cycle. Effectiveness has no bearing on whether a method of controlling births is licit or not. It’s the ACTION of the method. Total abstinence is a licit method of birth control. So is periodic abstinence. The ACT is not altered in the use of NFP–it is as God intended the ACT to happen. All forms of CONTRACEPTION alter the act–rendering it infertile.

Yes, but the “periodic” part isn’t the issue. The issue is that the NFP method means periodic selective abstinence.

That is to say, there’s no issue with periodic “non-selective” abstinence (there’s probably a better term to use, but I think you know what I mean). That, to me, should be considered the ideal – but that would be a hardship for most couples, since it would mean only having sex a handful of times each year (at least for couples of average fertility). But by economy, it’s lawful for a couple to use selective abstinence (having sex when they think they’re least likely to conceive, in other words NFP) in order to be able to have sex a few times each month but not increase the likelihood of conceiving.

That’s my $0.02, anyway.

NFP should only be used with just or serious reasons…

Exactly!

 

[josephdaniel29]

NFP should only be used with just or serious reasons…

What would those reasons be and do you have to receive a blessing from your priest to practice NFP?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Wha? :whacky: .

As expected, this confusion is a real one and you are missing the boat.

Originally Posted by Chaldean Rite

What can God accuse the couple of who engages in the maritlal act? Think about it for a second Mickey. The couple who uses NFP is freely accepting whatever children God decides to give them. You can’t say this about the contraceptive coulple since their actions say otherwise.

I may be talking to the walls since it seems to be in the various Orthodox churches you can use condomns, spermicide, and probably get a vastectomy and still be in good standing with the Orthodox faith. I wonder if this stems from a lack of delineation between mortal and venial sins in their theology? Most definetly.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

What would those reasons be and do you have to receive a blessing from your priest to practice NFP?

Yours in Christ
Joe

These are good questions and I suggest first reading this wonderful article:

Contraception: Why Not?

and this some various Church teachings on why NFP is not sinful:
usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/cathteach.shtml

 

[Mickey]

As expected, this confusion is a real one and you are missing the boat.

Insults give you no credibility.

The couple who uses NFP is freely accepting whatever children God decides to give them.

Think about it Chaldy–the couple is using NFP as an intentional effort to NOT conceive. It is not brain surgery here.

a lack of delineation between mortal and venial sins in their theology? Most definetly.

Huh?

Btw–It is spelled, d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.

 

[Peter_J]

What would those reasons be and do you have to receive a blessing from your priest to practice NFP?

Yours in Christ
Joe

That’s a good question. I never really thought about it.

 

[josephdaniel29]

What can God accuse the couple of who engages in the maritlal act? Think about it for a second Mickey. The couple who uses NFP is freely accepting whatever children God decides to give them. You can’t say this about the contraceptive coulple since their actions say otherwise.

So the accidental pregnancies that occur every year when the couple uses a condom or spermicide are not “freely accepted”? (whatever that’s supposed to mean) I think it’s awfully presumptuous of you and very insulting to assume that the small number of Orthodox who have received a blessing to use artificial contraception would not “freely accept” any children that may occur. You don’t know them. How dare you judge them.

It appears to me about the only justification for NFP is the idea that it’s easier for God to thwart the will of the couple and cause them to accidentally get pregnant. Is that really the idea you build your teaching on?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Peter_J]

Insults give you no credibility.

I fear that this whole thread may have already lost credibility. (Which begets the question of why I continue to post on it, to which I would respond that I post in hope.)

 

[Mickey]

I fear that this whole thread may have already lost credibility.

Perhaps.

(Which begets the question of why I continue to post on it, to which I would respond that I post in hope.)

Ah…yes…hope.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

So the accidental pregnancies that occur every year when the couple uses a condom or spermicide are not “freely accepted”? (whatever that’s supposed to mean) I think it’s awfully presumptuous of you and very insulting to assume that the small number of Orthodox who have received a blessing to use artificial contraception would not “freely accept” any children that may occur. You don’t know them. How dare you judge them.

what is an accidental pregnancy? A pregnancy means something went right.