Orthodox and Catholic converts: have you ever struggled between the two?

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pacloc said:
Where do you get the idea that she has to have sin to be human? Jesus has no sin either, so why would he be human? Why could we say that he became one with us? I do not believe that most Orthodox believe Mary ever sinned. They just do not need to call her birth immaculate because they do not believe in inherited sin.
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I will address your answer, but I don’t recall saying anything about her sin in my entire post. I said she was not of an “immaculate conception”, because that is not human, and therefore she would not be human. Jesus was fully God and fully man - that is not the same as Mary, she was fully human - no god whatsoever. The issue here is two things, if Mary had the immaculate conceptions, then so did Ana, and so on and so on…because your (Catholic) argument of the need for the immaculate for conception for Christ would mean that the ones (i.e. Mary) having immaculate conceptions would also need to be from an immaculate conceptions (i.e. Ana and so forth) thus they would not be human. The second issue is that by removing her “org. sin” as the Catholic teach, they have “sin proofed” Mary — so really Mary did nothing — she was just like a machine, sin proffed and popped out a baby. Whereas the Orthodox hold Mary in such high regard because she could have sinned, had Ance. Sin, and yet she chose not to sin — thats the big difference. That is why she is the first among the saints, and an example to all mankind.
 
Rohzek said:
What part of it is nonsense? Perhaps I may have overstated the present ties between Church and State in Spain, but I cannot imagine being wrong on the rest of it.
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All your message is nonsense.
Have you lived in Spain? Do you know Spain? Do yo know our masonic Borbon kings? Monarchy actively persecutes and tortures political dissident? Tortures? What tortures and where? Does have Spain yet an absolutist monarchy? Spain is a democracy. Political dissidents? Who?
 
fasolislithuan said:
All your message is nonsense.
Have you lived in Spain? Do you know Spain? Do yo know our masonic Borbon kings? Monarchy actively persecutes and tortures political dissident? Tortures? What tortures and where? Does have Spain yet an absolutist monarchy? Spain is a democracy. Political dissidents? Who?
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I am not sure what you mean by “masonic.” No, I have not lived in Spain. But I do associate with Catalans. They have a very different picture of the monarchy, and I have no reason to doubt their testimony. And yes, they lived in Spain during the post-Franco years, so it isn’t exactly out-of-date.
 
Kmon23 said:
Yep I agree. Her being without original sin does not in any way make the Theotokos less human. Technically the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception would make her more human as she is restored to what she was supposed to be as a human in communion with God.
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That is a big step into understanding the Immaculate Conception, accepting that a human can be without original sin. Of course, if God wills it, that this grace of Christ salvation occurs to her before she was born to prepare her for her purpose.

Mary immaculate conception is not so much for her but more so for her Son.

What do you think about the idea of Mary as the new Ark of Covenant? That God could not possibly be conceived in the impure and unclean (because of sin)?

Reuben
 
Rohzek said:
What part of it is nonsense? Perhaps I may have overstated the present ties between Church and State in Spain, but I cannot imagine being wrong on the rest of it.
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Please provide independent verfiable source for your other accusations.
 
czarlazar said:
well the 2010 data shows 17,775,421 members and what is the Latin church total ? I guess that would give you the percentages. 1.2 billion total catholics…so its pretty small.
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I had no idea there were so few people in the Eastern Rites.
 
SAVINGRACE said:
Please provide independent verfiable source for your other accusations.
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For the Spain portions, no. My claims are based upon personal social interactions with people from Spain. If I take their word for it as their friend, then what reason would I have to go hit the books? Either believe me or don’t. It is of no consequence to me what you believe, and the specific point really is simply ancillary to my overarching point to the previous discussion.
 
prodromos said:
Interesting. What is often held up as the reason the Catholic Church surpasses the Orthodox, the fact that they are not just Western but also include the Eastern Catholic rites (which you will find are no different to the Orthodox in terms of ethnicity, nationalism and faith) is the very reason you dismiss the Orthodox Church.

The mind boggles at the contradictions in play.
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What do you mean “no different to the Orthodox in terms of … and faith”?

Aside from this topic–there are Latin Rite parishes in the East, not just Eastern Rite parishes.
 
Reuben_J said:
That is a big step into understanding the Immaculate Conception, accepting that a human can be without original sin. Of course, if God wills it, that this grace of Christ salvation occurs to her before she was born to prepare her for her purpose.

Mary immaculate conception is not so much for her but more so for her Son.

What do you think about the idea of Mary as the new Ark of Covenant? That God could not possibly be conceived in the impure and unclean (because of sin)?

Reuben
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Of course I view her as the new Ark of the Covenant. A Catholic video on YouTube explaining her as the Ark, Queen Mother, and New Eve is one of my favorite videos of all time.
However, your final question is not the right question to ask in context of Orthodox theology as far as I know.
 
Kmon23 said:
Of course I view her as the new Ark of the Covenant. A Catholic video on YouTube explaining her as the Ark, Queen Mother, and New Eve is one of my favorite videos of all time.
However, your final question is not the right question to ask in context of Orthodox theology as far as I know.
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Thanks. 🙂
 
The spanish monarchy actively persecutes and tortures political dissidents. This is a ridiculous claim without any basis. The evidences are some presumible talks with catalan fellows. Yeah, It almost sounds as convincing as Chick cartoons, you know, the Vatican has a big computer with records of the name of every Protestant in the world to persecute them. And yes, some people claim this is true. That’s certainly a solid evidence.

Masonic means that under the appearance our borbonic and french monarchy is anticatholic, pro-abortist, pro-socialist ideas and usually goes to Bilderberg meetings. So catholic!

I don’t understand why someone for defend his positions has to speak without the remotest idea of things that he doesn’t know. I won’t continue this subject because I’d have to say no charitable words. Of course this is an off-topic that degrade this interesting thread. For me is over.

Blessings for you, Rohzek.
 
fasolislithuan said:
The spanish monarchy actively persecutes and tortures political dissidents. This is a ridiculous claim without any basis. The evidences are some presumible talks with catalan fellows. Yeah, It almost sounds as convincing as Chick cartoons, you know, the Vatican has a big computer with records of the name of every Protestant in the world to persecute them. And yes, some people claim this is true. That’s certainly a solid evidence.

Masonic means that under the appearance our borbonic and french monarchy is anticatholic, pro-abortist, pro-socialist ideas and usually goes to Bilderberg meetings. So catholic!

I don’t understand why someone for defend his positions has to speak without the remotest idea of things that he doesn’t know. I won’t continue this subject because I’d have to say no charitable words. Of course this is an off-topic that degrade this interesting thread. For me is over.

Blessings for you, Rohzek.
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You seem very attacked and sensitive. your comment is far from my question. If his comment offends you, it is better for you two to discuss it in PM before this thread becomes an attack thread
 
Vanez said:
You seem very attacked and sensitive. your comment is far from my question. If his comment offends you, it is better for you two to discuss it in PM before this thread becomes an attack thread
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Thanks. I’ve said I don’t want to continue with this off-topic.
 
czarlazar said:
I will address your answer, but I don’t recall saying anything about her sin in my entire post. I said she was not of an “immaculate conception”, because that is not human, and therefore she would not be human. Jesus was fully God and fully man - that is not the same as Mary, she was fully human - no god whatsoever. The issue here is two things, if Mary had the immaculate conceptions, then so did Ana, and so on and so on…because your (Catholic) argument of the need for the immaculate for conception for Christ would mean that the ones (i.e. Mary) having immaculate conceptions would also need to be from an immaculate conceptions (i.e. Ana and so forth) thus they would not be human. The second issue is that by removing her “org. sin” as the Catholic teach, they have “sin proofed” Mary — so really Mary did nothing — she was just like a machine, sin proffed and popped out a baby. Whereas the Orthodox hold Mary in such high regard because she could have sinned, had Ance. Sin, and yet she chose not to sin — thats the big difference. That is why she is the first among the saints, and an example to all mankind.
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I think the misunderstanding lies on your view of what the immaculate conception is. You seem to have developed the idea that immaculate conception is the same as Jesus being born of a virgin or something. Either way your theology is flawed if you believe that being born like Christ makes you not human. Jesus was fully human, his divinity has nothing to do with how he was born. The Church fathers saw that Christ’s birth was like Adam’s, brought about by God’s forming, not man’s earthly passion of sex. This does not make him any more super-human than Adam. The immaculate conception of Mary is very different than this birth of Christ. Whether you agree with the immaculate conception or not, you have no right to tell westerners what it is that they believe if they continue to tell you that it is not what you believe it is. It’s like a protestant that insists that both us east and west worship Mary, they have no right to tell us what we are doing especially when we explain that we do not. All that the immaculate conception means in the west is that she did not inherit original sin that would lead her into personal sin and death. She was given special graces because she would be the ark of Jesus, which needed to be holy. It is a different theology from the east, because in the east the idea that you inherit sin is not taught, but that you inherit the effects of sin, mainly the passions of the earth. The immaculate conception is a little vague, because it is not clear whether or not Mary was born with the passions that we were given after the fall or not. Theologically it wouldn’t make sense, because even Christ was born with the passions it seems. All that I was trying to do is to unite the east and west ideas by expressing that Mary was definitely protected in some extraordinary way from her earliest existence, her conception. To believe that she chose not to sin without any specialized protection seems to contradict scripture. I’ll look for writings of Eastern fathers that shed light on this concept.
 
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