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Mickey
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I didn’t think so.
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Zundrah
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lol - these Orthodox guys remind me of that film called “Body Snatchers”!
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Zundrah
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What year did the Orthodox church appear? 
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Harpazo
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Zundrah
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AD 33!? But is this true? …before the reformation as well!Orthodox would say AD 33.
In Christ,
Andrew
Hmm…
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theistgal
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I don’t see any place in this thread where any Orthodox has asked you information about their own church - only asking you to back up the assertions you made about it!
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Timbothefiveth
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The difference?
Matthew 16 :
In addition, that the orthodox church split off speaks against it. If they needed to split off from the original church (the cathlic church), wouldn’t that mean the “gates of Hades” had overpowered it?
Matthew 16 :
The catholic church has this guarantee.
In addition, that the orthodox church split off speaks against it. If they needed to split off from the original church (the cathlic church), wouldn’t that mean the “gates of Hades” had overpowered it?
But this runs in to problems. For instance, the church had popes well after 33 AD, the orthodox church rejects that. In addition, it’s the orthodox chuuch that split off. This points to the catholic church being the one founded in 33 AD.
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AdrianP
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The 2 Churches can unite very easily, comming back to dogma of 1000. Both recognize this dogma as valid so there should be no problem, the only problem would be to renounce innovations.
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Zundrah
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An Orthodox guy once told me that it was the Catholic Church that split from the Orthodox Church… but I always was certain that it was actually every other church in the world that split from the Catholics?
At least that is was I was taught…
At least that is was I was taught…
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SingleMomMonica
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Innovations? Like what Protestants accuse the Church of adding? Immaculate Conception, Papal Primacy and Purgatory?
Immaculate Conception: I believe that the Orthodox Christians do believe and teach that from Conception to her Dormition Mary, the Mother of God, remained completely pure and free of all sin. I’d like to see any Orthodox Christians try to argue that the Mother of God had any sin at any point of her life - conception to death - they’d be in big trouble as their faith does not support that horrific idea.
Papal Primacy/Supremacy: I also believe that the Orthodox Christians do believe and teach that the Pope of Rome has Primacy over all the other Patriarchs. Even St. John Chrysostom, a Patriarch of Antioch, said that the Successor of St. Peter, the Pope of Rome, had jurisdiction over the Entire Universe.
Purgatory: I know that Orthodox Christians do believe in praying for the dead and that they also believe in the Mercy of God. If they didn’t believe in Purgatory, then there would be no reason to pray for the dead and it would be a complete rejection of God’s Mercifulness. If you get deep into the argument - the reason for disagreement is that Orthodox accuse Catholics of believing in 2 Fires (read the works of Palmas and I hope I’ve spelled his name correctly) - one eternal and one temporary - but if you really look you will see that Orthodox and Catholics agree that there is only 1 Eternal Fire of God - those who have completely rejected God feel that fire as Hell - eternally felt as Hell, those who are saved, but not yet complete purified of all passions feel that fire as Purgatory - temporarily felt as Purgatory and lastly those who are saved and have already been completely purified feel that fire as complete and total love of God as Heaven where they are able to see God face to face as they themselves have been completely illuminated by God’s fire aka deified - eternally felt as Heaven.
If Orthodox Christians really look into these issues at depth, they will see that they actually believe the Catholic teachings, they may just prefer to call the supposed innovations by another name. Catholics call them Dogma, Protestants call them Innovation.
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jam070406
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In 1054, the Patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem were not the local bishops who used to rule from these sees (since all of the locals broke off with the Monophysites). Rather, the Orthodox bishops of these sees in 1054 were all Byzantine Melkites – Imperial appointees from Constantinople! Furthermore, they were presiding within Muslim countries; and their flocks were puny at best (most of the Christians in those regions being Monophysite, not Orthodox). So, they were no longer the great metropolitan sees of the ancient Church.
So, when the Orthodox say that there were 5 patriarchs and 1 broke off, that is not the case at all. It was not a 4 to 1 split. It was a 1 to 1 split – Rome and Constantinople. The sees of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem at this time (ruled by imperial-minded Greeks from Byzantium) did whatever Constantinople told them to do. And, if Churches like the Copts and the Jacobites turn out not to be Monophysite after all, then these men weren’t even the the legitimate bishops! But, the “Greek invaders” as the Copts and Syrians saw them.
bringyou.to/apologetics/a30.htm
So, when the Orthodox say that there were 5 patriarchs and 1 broke off, that is not the case at all. It was not a 4 to 1 split. It was a 1 to 1 split – Rome and Constantinople. The sees of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem at this time (ruled by imperial-minded Greeks from Byzantium) did whatever Constantinople told them to do. And, if Churches like the Copts and the Jacobites turn out not to be Monophysite after all, then these men weren’t even the the legitimate bishops! But, the “Greek invaders” as the Copts and Syrians saw them.
bringyou.to/apologetics/a30.htm
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theistgal
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Have you ever actually asked an Orthodox Christian what they believe about these doctrines? Because they definitely do not believe in the Immaculate Conception or Purgatory, no matter how you may want to spin it.
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John_Larocque
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I get the strong impression there are two issues at play. The first is that the dogma as defined is structured using the Augustinian language of original sin. It’s one thing to say she never sinned and chose never to sin. It’s another to say she was free from the stain of original sin. The second revolves around whether or not the See of Peter has the right to make this declaration.Of historical note, there’s a biblical text in the dogmatic decree (Genesis 3:15) based on a translation of the Bible that is unique to the Vulgate and has since been corrected in the Nova Vulgata. At the time, Pius IX declared it to be a prophecy of the Virgin Mary, and the Vulgate translation continues to be one of the proof-texts behind other popular movements to declare other new titles of Our Lady (“co-redemtrix”).
The real question - and the one that Pope Benedict has asked - is just what did that primacy mean during the first 1000 years of Christianity? For Benedict, the key to reunion is coming up with a common answer and mutually agreeing to it. I don’t know if that’s the case, but having that common answer, and a policy of confining the Filioque to the Latin Rite certainly can’t hurt.
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Harpazo
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This is true.Have you ever actually asked an Orthodox Christian what they believe about these doctrines? Because they definitely do not believe in the Immaculate Conception or Purgatory, no matter how you may want to spin it.
In Christ,
Andrew
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SingleMomMonica
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Yes, I am an Orthodox Christian.Have you ever actually asked an Orthodox Christian what they believe about these doctrines? Because they definitely do not believe in the Immaculate Conception or Purgatory, no matter how you may want to spin it.
I know what the Orthodox Church teaches very well. In additional to living the Orthodox Faith, I have also studied the Orthodox Church Fathers and Saints and their teachings. Have you? Have you ever read Gregory Palamas? St. John Chysostom? St. Basil, etc? If you did, you would probably be like me…attending daily Mass at the Catholic Church.
I now attend the Roman Catholic Church most of the time. I now consider myself Catholic, although I will always be an Orthodox Christian, as unlike Protestant Christans I can’t come into the Catholic Church via RCIA, since based on the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law as an Orthodox Christian I can already receive all of the Sacraments validly in the Roman Catholic Church.
You know the saying…when in Roman, do as the Romans - well I still have difficulty making the sign of the cross backwards and open handed like the Roman Catholics
Really it was through the writings, specifically of St. John Chrysostom had the biggest impact on me, of the Early Church Fathers, I know that the Early Church recognized the Church of Rome and the Papacy to be based on Matt. where Jesus gave only the Keys to St. Peter and his successors. I also know that the Early Church recognized that the Pope of Rome had Universal jurisdiction. Follow the Pope and you can’t go wrong! Jesus promised it and the Early Church Fathers confirmed it.
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Harpazo
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Listen, I don’t want to get in a whole big thing, but according to the Holy Orthodox Church, if you are partaking of the Sacraments from another person in another church than an Orthodox priest, then you are excommunicated from the Orthodox Church de facto. I don’t say this with malice at all, but wanted you to be aware of it.Yes, I am an Orthodox Christian.
I know what the Orthodox Church teaches very well. In additional to living the Orthodox Faith, I have also studied the Orthodox Church Fathers and Saints and their teachings. Have you? Have you ever read Gregory Palamas? St. John Chysostom? St. Basil, etc? If you did, you would probably be like me…attending daily Mass at the Catholic Church.
I now attend the Roman Catholic Church most of the time. I now consider myself Catholic, although I will always be an Orthodox Christian, as unlike Protestant Christans I can’t come into the Catholic Church via RCIA, since based on the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law as an Orthodox Christian I can already receive all of the Sacraments validly in the Roman Catholic Church.
You know the saying…when in Roman, do as the Romans - well I still have difficulty making the sign of the cross backwards and open handed like the Roman Catholics
Really it was through the writings, specifically of St. John Chrysostom had the biggest impact on me, of the Early Church Fathers, I know that the Early Church recognized the Church of Rome and the Papacy to be based on Matt. where Jesus gave only the Keys to St. Peter and his successors. I also know that the Early Church recognized that the Pope of Rome had Universal jurisdiction. Follow the Pope and you can’t go wrong! Jesus promised it and the Early Church Fathers confirmed it.
In Christ,
Andrew
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SingleMomMonica
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Andrew, read what I wrote before you go agreeing. Think about what you are agreeing to.
Can you really tell me that as an Orthodox Christian you do not believe Mary, the Mother of God, is Immaculate? Are you telling me that you think that she had ever sinned willingly or unwilling? If you are saying that, then why in our various liturgies within the Orthodox Church do we call her Immaculate? If she’d had any sin, she could not be considered Immaculate.
Can you really tell me that you accept some, but not all of what St. John Chrysostom wrote? How can you pick and choose? What authority do you have to condemn what St. John Chrysostom said when he specifically said that the Pope of Rome has juridiction over the entire universe? Even he believed it and he was a Patriarch of Antioch!
Can you really tell me that as an Orthodox Christian you do not believe in the Mercy of God? Purgatory is the very reality of that Mercy. Read what I wrote - the mistranslations caused the Orthodox at the Council of Florence to misunderstand the Catholics causing the Orthodox to think that Catholics claim 2 Fires of God, 1 Eternal and 1 Temporary, but what they were actually saying is that there is 1 Eternal Fire of God that people, after death experience differently. Hell is horrific/painful experience of that Fire for eternity. Purgatory is the purifiying experience of the same Fire experienced temporarily. Heaven is the Illuminating experience of the same Fire for the rest of eternity. Most of us will not leave this Earth completely Purified of all of our Passions, Purgatory is the Mercy of God allowing us to complete the Purification Process after death, if we had already begun that process but had not yet received perfection. We say, “Kyrie Eleison” like 50 million times during Divine Liturgy, we have the 40-Day and Annual Prayers for the Dead and specific Saturdays dedicated to praying for the Dead as Orthodox - we’re not praying to hear ourselves sing - we are praying because we Believe that our prayers are beneficial for the dead and that God is Merciful! If there was no such thing as the Catholic understanding of Purgatory, then there would be no need to pray for the dead - our prayers for those in hell are pointless and prayer for those in heaven unneeded.
Think through these hard Andrew before you make a quick agreement with someone against them. Orthodox Christians in general, do not like to agree with Catholics - it’s been ingrained in our nature to rebel when we hear the words Immacuate Conception, Purgatory, Papal Supremacy. It takes time to think through these issues, but I think it is worth it to come to a better understanding. There truly is not much that separates our Churches, just like the CCC says.
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Zundrah
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Thankfully, it is okay for me to be a methodist protestant and attend a catholic church with out breaking my methodist rules!
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SingleMomMonica
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I know Andrew. It was only after serious prayer and study, I made the decision to receive the Sacraments/Mysteries in the Catholic Church. I do not take my decision lightly. If you believe my decision to be wrong, I would gladly welcome your prayers for me. I do know that God knows my heart and that my intentions are as pure as they can be considering I am a sinful woman. I do not believe I have made a mistake, but I do know that I am fallible and it is possible I did. I am now able to receive the Sacraments more frequently, weekly Confession, daily Holy Eucharist. It is making me a strong Christian.
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SingleMomMonica
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It’s not attending the Catholic Church that makes one excommunicated with the Orthodox Church, it is the receiving of the Sacraments in a Non-Orthodox Church that the Orthodox Church has problem with. Some Orthodox believe that the Catholic Church has valid Sacraments while some Orthodox believe that since the 1054 split, the Catholic Church does NOT have valid Sacraments. My Orthodox Priest and I are of the school of thought that Catholics do have valid Sacraments. My Priest has specifically told me not to receive in the Catholic Church. I am disobeying him.Thankfully, it is okay for me to be a methodist protestant and attend a catholic church with out breaking my methodist rules!
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