Orthodox and the Blessed Virgin Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter BernadetteM
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
By the way, does the Eastern Tradition have the imagery/analogy of mary as the “New Eve” as the West does? If so, is it not in perfect harmony with this that Mary would be free from original sin, as was Eve at her creation. The difference would be that Mary chose not to be disobedient to God.
St Mary was born into a fallen world, like you and I. She was subject to original sin like you and I. She chose to remain sinless and God chose her to be the Mother of God–Theotokos–Panaghia. She is the great example to mankind. That is about all I have to say about it because I have made a vow not to discuss the Roman Catholic docrine of the IC on this forum. 🙂

There are Orthodox forums where the subject is discussed in depth–or perhaps other Orthodox here will engage you.

Peace and God bless,
Mickey
 
Whether the IC is accepted by most Orthodox or not, please refer to post #92 by Father Gregory an Orthodox priest.

From his comments it appears that although it is not a dogma in the Orthodox Church, it seems that it a choice that some Orthodox may accept or not.

When I started this post I didn’t realize what a pot I was stirring. To be truthful I have not been following these posts carefully. My original post was not to divide us further, just an innocent question and my interpretation of what I had read on a website on one of the liturgies of the Orthodox Church.

We are all members of Christ’s Holy Church and I wonder what our Lord thinks when looking at some of the disagreements we have. The important point is that both Churches love and revere His Holy Mother. I have always felt a fondness for the Orthodox and closeness that is lacking with my fellow protestant brothers and sisters.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
Here is something from an Antiochian Orthodox website:

Taken at face value, the Western doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is seen by the Orthodox as separating the Mother of God from the rest of the human race. If true, this would have made it impossible for Christ to become truly man, because Mary would therefore not be subject to the same conditions of humanity as those for whom Christ had become incarnate in order to save. Mary is human, and through her, God became fully human as well.
http://www.antiochianarch.org.au/Orthodox-view-on-Immaculate-Conception.aspx
I read through the whole article, and I think that it contains some of what I alluded to in my previous post. I don’t think that the Catholic Church teaches that we inherit the “guilt” of Adam’s sin as the article claims, but rather it’s consequences - exactly what the Orthodox hold.

Here is a link and excert from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on Original Sin
"The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle. "
The bolds are mine.

Anyway, from this - any argument saying that the Catholic Church imputes personal guilt to all humanity on account of Original Sin is not correct. It is the fallen human nature that is inherited, as well as physical death.
 
From his comments it appears that although it is not a dogma in the Orthodox Church, it seems that it a choice that some Orthodox may accept or not.
I have never heard of an ex-communication or Church disciplinary action for having a private and personal belief in the RC doctrine of the IC. I just know that the Orthodox Church does not teach it.
 
**St Mary was born into a fallen world, like you and I. She was subject to original sin like you and I. She chose to remain sinless and God chose her to be the Mother of God–Theotokos–Panaghia. She is the great example to mankind. ** That is about all I have to say about it because I have made a vow not to discuss the Roman Catholic docrine of the IC on this forum. 🙂

There are Orthodox forums where the subject is discussed in depth–or perhaps other Orthodox here will engage you.

Peace and God bless,
Mickey
I agree with the bolded statement in its entirety. The only qualifier I would add is that while she was subject to the consequences of original sin, it was by a singular grace from God that she was spared its transmission to her, thus her rejoicing “in God my Savior.”
 
I agree with the bolded statement in its entirety. The only qualifier I would add is that while she was subject to the consequences of original sin, it was by a singular grace from God that she was spared its transmission to her, thus her rejoicing “in God my Savior.”
And I believe she chose to remain sinless in preparation for the Anunciation by the Angel Gabriel. She was not spared ahead of time in the womb. God allowed her to use her free will. 🙂
 
And I believe she chose to remain sinless in preparation for the Anunciation by the Angel Gabriel. She was not spared ahead of time in the womb. God allowed her to use her free will. 🙂
I read that the word translated as “full of Grace” used by Gabriel at the Annunciation is in the perfect tense, implying fullness prior to his visitation.

I do agree, as I have said, that Mary had full use of her free will throughout her entire life, and she did choose to remain sinless - although I don’t know that she would have had any reason to expect that she would become the Mother of God.
 
I read that the word translated as “full of Grace” used by Gabriel at the Annunciation is in the perfect tense, implying fullness prior to his visitation.
Yes. She remained sinless all her life. I have heard that a better translation would be “ever graced”.
I do agree, as I have said, that Mary had full use of her free will throughout her entire life, and she did choose to remain sinless - although I don’t know that she would have had any reason to expect that she would become the Mother of God.
Scripture is silent on that. We know that she was the great example of ascetical perseverence and virtue by the simple fact that she remained sinless by her own free will. I often wonder what may have been revealed to her in her childhood. 🙂

Having said that, I was Roman Catholic for more than 35 years. I understand the doctrine of the IC (but I am not required to accept it under pain of ex-communication).

I understand that you accept it and agree with it–and I respect your position.

Please respect mine.

Blessings,
Mickey
 
Having said that, I was Roman Catholic for more than 35 years. I understand the doctrine of the IC (but I am not required to accept it under pain of ex-communication).
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by this…🤷
I understand that you accept it and agree with it–and I respect your position.

Please respect mine.

Blessings,
Mickey
I appreciate your respect, and I respect your position - I only try to understand it.

Blessings,
Will
 
I was taught as a Roman Catholic that I must accept all doctrines of the Church under pain of ex-communication. Has this changed?
Not as far as I know. I think it stands to reason that to call one’s self a member of a religion one should adhere to the tenets of that religion.

I guess maybe my question has more to do with if you were Roman Catholic, are you ever dispensed from that obligation by virtue of becoming Orthodox? That’s probably for another thread though…😃
 
After viewing several of these post, it seems that many of the Roman Catholics are primed and ready for battle on this, and other issues. Thus, it is important when discussing other denominational concepts that a difference in beliefs is not a zero sum game.

It si also important to understand the concept, and history of original sin. The posts suggest that many on the Roman side last read the their cathecisms since grade 8!

And, at that time, we were given, by necessity, a simpler understanding of this complex concept. Many have struggled with it, but in its simplest form, and for the purposes of discussion this is the tendency, the very human tendency, to turn away from God, in a deliberative manner, and to therefore assume the capacity for other less charitable, and even evil acts, and the punshment for this is evenutal death.

But, let’s remember that the story of adman and Eve was used to present a theological concept to primordal people. It is the existence of this human trait, that is importnat, and our understanding of it, than it is with the verifable existence of Adam, or even Eve…

My readings - limited as they are - of Orthodoxy, particularly Russian and Greek orthodox religous tradtions and doctrine is this: (a) we mortals are never going to grasp the enormity of God, and his reach; (b) Orthodox beliefs are thus more “pragmatic” in their understanding of the Trinity, the Blessed Mother, confession, etc. and (c) why should we struggle with the enormity of God, whose divinity we can never understand, and (d) that we can praise Him, the saints, and the wonderment of the salvific actions of His son, Jesus Christ.

Westerners, in particular, want to understand everything in toto, codify it, and apply it to everyone, in every situation. This Western viewpoint is what I see as the background for many of the questions on the orthodox postions.

Finally, as I have noted before, the Blessed Mother, said yes to God from that fateful day of the Annunciation. She continued to say yes to God throughout her life, serving as the first disciple, and an example to us all. By venerating her images, and asking for her intercession we say YES to her, and to the Father, and the Son.
 
Westerners, in particular, want to understand everything in toto, codify it, and apply it to everyone, in every situation. This Western viewpoint is what I see as the background for many of the questions on the orthodox postions.
Yes. The Western mindset leans heavily toward scholasticism and logic/reason. The Eastern mindset leans heavily toward asceticism and mystery.
 
Yes. The Western mindset leans heavily toward scholasticism and logic/reason. The Eastern mindset leans heavily toward asceticism and mystery.
I definitely agree on this point. An analogy might be like growing up in the U.S. and learning everything in the Imperial system of measurement (feet, pounds, miles, etc.) Once you’re comfortable with it you can go anywhere and look at something and say “that is about three feet wide” or “that weighs about 20 pounds.” However, outside the U.S. many countries use the metric system. So to them, something is not “about three feet wide” it’s “about one meter wide” etc. We mean the same thing as far as what we see, but express it differently, and for me, looking at something and seeing it as one meter or one kilometer can make my head spin a bit trying to do the conversion - it’s not a natural thought process. Threfore, I personally would feel better if EVERYONE used MY system.

I think that’s similar to the dynamic experienced between the west and the east in the Church.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top