Orthodox-Are the Jews Still God's Chosen People?

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Formosus said:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
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Formosus,

Thanks for contributing to the Thread.

In quoting this verse, are you saying the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people?

Thanks,
Anna
 
Nine_Two said:
Just something to point out, but in the poll results, of the three who said “no” all have their religion listed as “Orthodox” or some varient thereof. While none who answered “yes” are listed as “Orthodox”.
Of course that’s so far. Who’s to say that won’t change.
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Nine-Two,

Sidebar: I’ve only set up a couple of Polls. Is there a way to view how each person voted?

Anna
 
Nine_Two said:
Just something to point out, but in the poll results, of the three who said “no” all have their religion listed as “Orthodox” or some varient thereof. While none who answered “yes” are listed as “Orthodox”.
Of course that’s so far. Who’s to say that won’t change.
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Nine_Two,

Still the same, now. None of the 4 “yes” votes are Orthodox.

So, we have 5 “no” votes from Orthodox members.

Anna

P.S. Would Catholics vote on the Thread link below? I’ve got one Poll for Orthodox and one Poll for Catholics. Orthodox members started voting on the Catholic Poll, so I started an Orthodox Poll. Now Catholics are voting on the Orthodox Poll. Oh well, at least I’m getting responses. Thanks to all.
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Anna_Scott:
Catholics-Are the Jews Still God’s Chosen People
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People try to create a mutually exclusive right with being the chosen people. That right is an access to God unreserved by anyone else. We see that it is not being the chosen but instead being the choser. You enter into the same covenant as the Israelite and your hearts are circumcised. The father of lies wanted the Israelites to believe that it was a faithful following of the law that set them free. They failed to see the message of love in the text. They followed the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.
 
Anna_Scott said:
Formosus,

Thanks for contributing to the Thread.

In quoting this verse, are you saying the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people?

Thanks,
Anna
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The verse is fairly self explanatory. God’s chosen people are those who choose Christ. Since the Jews were our fathers in faith, they were given the opportunity first but most have of course rejected it. All those who live in Christ are the chosen people of God. It matters not if they are Jews, Greeks, Latins , Slavs or Chinese.

Edit* I voted on the Orthodox poll because as a Greek-Catholic I share far more theologically and spiritually with my Orthodox brethren then I do with my Latin brethren.
 
The Jews who die in this day or in the past since Jesus Christ has come 2000 years ago, or any who die before they accept Jesus as the Son of God in the coming end where all the Jews will accept and convert to Judaism will be going to the same place that a Hindu or a Muslim goes when they die, out of God’s presence.

The remnant of Jews that the Bible talks about are the Messianic Jews who have kept the Jesus is the Son of God. There have been many through history and now the Messianic Jews will be the first ones to tell you they are the remnant.

1 John 2:21-23 (New International Version)

21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

1 John 5:

4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

9We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
 
Formosus said:
The verse is fairly self explanatory. God’s chosen people are those who choose Christ. Since the Jews were our fathers in faith, they were given the opportunity first but most have of course rejected it. All those who live in Christ are the chosen people of God. It matters not if they are Jews, Greeks, Latins , Slavs or Chinese.

Edit* I voted on the Orthodox poll because as a Greek-Catholic I share far more theologically and spiritually with my Orthodox brethren then I do with my Latin brethren.
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Thanks for the clarification regarding the Scripture Verse.

Sidebar: Thanks for clarifying Greek-Catholic. I wondered if that was similar to Greek Orthodox.

As for the voting, I tried to set up a vote for Catholics on one Thread and Orthodox on this Thread, but that isn’t working so well. Everyone seems to want to vote, even Protestants. Guess I’ll just roll with it.

Anna
 
firstmode said:
The Jews who die in this day or in the past since Jesus Christ has come 2000 years ago, or any who die before they accept Jesus as the Son of God in the coming end where all the Jews will accept and convert to Judaism will be going to the same place that a Hindu or a Muslim goes when they die, out of God’s presence.

The remnant of Jews that the Bible talks about are the Messianic Jews who have kept the Jesus is the Son of God. There have been many through history and now the Messianic Jews will be the first ones to tell you they are the remnant.

1 John 2:21-23 (New International Version)

21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

1 John 5:

4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

9We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
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I appreciate your comments.

Since our topic focuses on Orthodox beliefs: how would you compare your beliefs with those of the Orthodox posts?

Thanks,
Anna
 
Xavierlives said:
People try to create a mutually exclusive right with being the chosen people. That right is an access to God unreserved by anyone else. We see that it is not being the chosen but instead being the choser. You enter into the same covenant as the Israelite and your hearts are circumcised. The father of lies wanted the Israelites to believe that it was a faithful following of the law that set them free. They failed to see the message of love in the text. They followed the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.
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Xavierlives,

You brought up the very important issue of “exclusivity.” The Jews do not view being the “Chosen People,” as having “exclusivity.”

This is a quote from a Jewish Forum Member, who posted on the Thread which asks Catholics if the Jews are still God’s Chosen People:
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chosen_people:
The first thing is to clarify what is meant by “chosen people” - to those who think it carries something indicating that the Jews think themselves something special or superior the answer is that the reverse is true.

Judaism teaches that the Jews were the last nation to be offered the Torah by God and He did so only after all other nations had refused - it teaches that God literally had to hold a mountain over the heads of the Jews- that the Jews received the Torah as the lowliest of nations so that all things that happened to the Jews could be attributed to God and God alone and not to the attributes and the abilities of the Jewish people.

Another misconception about the Jews as God’s chosen people is that non-Jews often see it as the Jews claiming some sort of exclusivity to God. . .

Judaism teaches the equality of all men- that is why we are all descended from Adam - so that no man can claim that his father is greater than another. All men and women- no matter their religion- have a part to play in this world so if one life is lost it is as if we have lost a world. . .
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Thanks for contributing to this Thread. I welcome your comments on the quote.

Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
Xavierlives,

You brought up the very important issue of “exclusivity.” The Jews do not view being the “Chosen People,” as having “exclusivity.”

This is a quote from a Jewish Forum Member, who posted on the Thread which asks Catholics if the Jews are still God’s Chosen People:

Thanks for contributing to this Thread. I welcome your comments on the quote.

Anna
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No, I think that is just my point. I am not advocating this exclusivity through birthright. I was saying that the idea was floating around, which is not quite correct. Our exclusivity is gained with our relationship to God, not by simply by being Jewish or any inherited right.

Moreover, I think we see that Jesus, under no uncertain terms, views the covenant to be one of choice. In John 8, Jesus tells the Jews their father is the devil as their own choice. They could choose the Father, but they are ignoring the truth.

Carry on.
 
Xavierlives said:
No, I think that is just my point. I am not advocating this exclusivity through birthright. I was saying that the idea was floating around, which is not quite correct. Our exclusivity is gained with our relationship to God, not by simply by being Jewish or any inherited right.

Moreover, I think we see that Jesus, under no uncertain terms, views the covenant to be one of choice. In John 8, Jesus tells the Jews their father is the devil as their own choice. They could choose the Father, but they are ignoring the truth.

Carry on.
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Xavierlives,

I think we have to be very careful about applying the words of Jesus to the Jewish people, collectively. I think you are taking John 8:44 out of context. If you look at the Bible as a whole, and even the New Testament as a whole, there is no context in which the Jewish people, collectively, are viewed as having the devil as their father.

In sincere Christian charity; I must say that regardless of your intentions, these types of remarks are offensive and anti-Jewish.

In Mark 8, Jesus says to Peter, " “Get behind me, Satan!” That does not make Peter the devil. Just as the words of Jesus in John 8:44 do not make the Jewish people the children of the devil.

Mark 8:31-33 (ESV): 31 And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he said this plainly. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But turning and seeing his disciples, **he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! **For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Remember that Jesus was born into a Jewish family. Jesus taught in the Synagogue as a Jewish Rabi (teacher.) A remnant of the Jews became the apostles and disciples of our Lord.

Romans 11: 11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

**Romans 11: **28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This particular Thread is about the Orthodox Christian view of whether or not the Jewish people are still God’s Chosen People. I would like to stay on topic as much as possible.

You might want to start a new Thread to discuss the issue from a predominantly Protestant viewpoint.

Thank you,
Anna
 
This is a post from a Jewish Forum Member regarding “Chosen People.”
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chosen_people:
Anna

Since you have asked for my (name removed by moderator)ut from the Jewish perspective here it is:

The first thing is to clarify what is meant by “chosen people” - to those who think it carries something indicating that the Jews think themselves something special or superior the answer is that the reverse is true.

Judaism teaches that the Jews were the last nation to be offered the Torah by God and He did so only after all other nations had refused - it teaches that God literally had to hold a mountain over the heads of the Jews- that the Jews received the Torah as the lowliest of nations so that all things that happened to the Jews could be attributed to God and God alone and not to the attributes and the abilities of the Jewish people.

Another misconception about the Jews as God’s chosen people is that non-Jews often see it as the Jews claiming some sort of exclusivity to God.

If the Jews are the chosen people and a person is not a Jew, then is God and the truth and knowledge of God denied them? This is very important from a Catholic (no pun intended) viewpoint with the double perspective of universality and the view that their’s is the only true path to God and salvation.

So is God in Judaism only the God of the Jews? Are non Jews denied redemption? The answer to that question is found in the very short (only four chapters), very brilliant book of Yonah (Jonah). We have the prophet Yonah being sent by God to warn a pagan city that it may be redeemed. We have Yonah fleeing to the sea on a boat and God causing a great storm. God we learn is everywhere and not limited to the borders of Judea, it did no good for Yonah to flee. God is the God of Jews and non Jews alike - we are all God’s children, the welfare of all is important to God and all may seek and receive redemption (as the pagan city does in the Yonah story).

Judaism teaches the equality of all men- that is why we are all descended from Adam - so that no man can claim that his father is greater than another. All men and women- no matter their religion- have a part to play in this world so if one life is lost it is as if we have lost a world.

So if God is the God of all people and you don’t need to be Jewish to receive God’s redemption and being Jewish doesn’t make you any better than anyone else what do the Jews get out of it? The answer is additional duties and responsibilities to carry out all the commandments.

Okay, but doesn’t that give the Jews an inside tract to the world to come as opposed to non Jews? Isn’t God going to reward a Jew for carrying out His commandments at the expense of the non Jew? Not according to Judaism.

Judaism teaches that it easier for the gentile to get to the world to come as he/she has only to follow the Seven Noahide commandments. So not only is the Jew not rewarded for his extra responsibilities and duties he has less of chance to get to the world to come.

Now we can see why Jews are not trying to convert gentiles to become Jews. In fact they will do their level best to dissuade you because you better be darn sure you want to take on those extra duties with the ramifications as a Jew of not doing so. That doesn’t mean you can’t convert to Judaism, it just means that you don’t have to and you better be sure that is what you seek for yourself.

Now the last point - which is the main point for Catholics - is the one I can’t help anyone with. The Catholics believe in a “new” testament - that Jews no longer have to follow the Torah as it was fulfilled through Yeshua bar Yosef. In the Trinity.

In other words that the eternal covenant has changed after the coming of the Christian messiah. Which brings us to all those threads about why Jews don"t believe in Jesus and my answer there is open to all to view.

Hope this helped.
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Nine_Two said:
Just something to point out, but in the poll results, of the three who said “no” all have their religion listed as “Orthodox” or some varient thereof. While none who answered “yes” are listed as “Orthodox”.
Of course that’s so far. Who’s to say that won’t change.
Click to expand...
I am Orthodox & just voted.

The Jews of today are no longer a part of the Chosen People of God as His Chosen people are members of His Church.

Salvation is from the Jews because Jesus Himself was a Jew and there is no salvation other than the salvation He gives.

The Jews were the first to convert to Christianity and they were also the first to reject God’s Plan of Salvation which Christ offered them first before the gentiles.

The New Testament is clear that in the Church there is no distinction between Jewish and Gentile converts to Christianity.

If the Jews of today, who are not Orthodox Christians, whose ancestors reject Christ and His Church, were to still be His Chosen People, then there would be two paths to salvation and clearly that is not the truth. There is only 1 path to Salvation and that is through Christ.

God never loved those of Jewish decent more than the rest of the humanity and likewise, He also does Not love Orthodox Christians any more than those of any other religion. The difference between Orthodox Christians and those of other religions is that they accepted Christ, His Church and the fullness of His Teachings and as such they have access to the one path of Salvation and all the resources they need to make the journey, if they chose to. Make no mistake simply being or becoming an Orthodox Christian is no guarentee that one will be saved - each person must struggle against their passions to be free of them to reach theosis. Being Christmated into the Faith is just the first step, not the last.
(replace the word “Orthodox” in the above with the word “Catholic” and I’m sure the Catholic Church’s teaching would agree with that statement)

Being “Chosen” in no way makes us any more loved than those who are not His Chosen People. In fact, to those whom much has been given (the knowledge of the right path of theosis), much is expected. Wooow to those of us Orthodox Christians who talk the talk but don’t walk the walk - because of what we have…the Mysteries, the Monastics, the Saints, etc to show us the way, how much more will we be judged as compared to a Jew of today.

There are modern-day Jewish converts to the Orthodox Faith though, so if they truly seek after God, He will let them find Him…even if it turns out He is somewhere different then they grew up thinking. conciliarpress.com/books/surprised-by-christ.html
 
What the heck - non-Orthodox people are voting?

Purge the results! I wanna recount! Robble robble robble! :mad:
 
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