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Nine_Two
Guest
I can’t be bothered to count names anymore, but all the Orthodox voters (and one Eastern Catholic) said no.What the heck - non-Orthodox people are voting?
Purge the results! I wanna recount! Robble robble robble!
- Status
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Mosacked
Guest
Anna, you THINK too much.
If a person has a corrupted mind or darkened senses, his/her thought process will corrupt the teachings in scripture they read. Instead of just FOLLOWING scripture, the person starts to think of all kinds of outrageous reasonings/justifications.
Do you know that all that we humans need to do is OBEY?
…and Jesus said in John 4:22 - **We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews. **
.
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Hesychios
Guest
What is the nature of “chosenness” ?
Is it an election of some sort? Does it grant assurance of something? How do we define this thing today?
Does it mean Jews are immaculately conceived?.. no, I don’t think that is implied. Then what? What is Chosen about Judaism?
The Apostles were all born into Judaism, and for my money I think they never considered themselves to cease being Jews. Neither did they ever cease loving the God of the Jews … their God and ours. But that is not what made their lives distinctive, it was Christ.
They lived in Christ and died in Christ.
As far as living out one’s Jewishness, I think that Saint Paul was very clear about it.
Is it some sort of nice honor that means nothing in reality but sounds good?
Is it an election of some sort? Does it grant assurance of something? How do we define this thing today?
Does it mean Jews are immaculately conceived?.. no, I don’t think that is implied. Then what? What is Chosen about Judaism?
The Apostles were all born into Judaism, and for my money I think they never considered themselves to cease being Jews. Neither did they ever cease loving the God of the Jews … their God and ours. But that is not what made their lives distinctive, it was Christ.
They lived in Christ and died in Christ.
As far as living out one’s Jewishness, I think that Saint Paul was very clear about it.
If one is not born into salvation, and one does observe the Jewish law into salvation, what is it about Jewishness today that accounts for a chosenness?
Is it some sort of nice honor that means nothing in reality but sounds good?
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Mosacked,
I’ve seen the damage you’ve done on other threads.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not taking the “bait.”
Anna
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
What the heck - non-Orthodox people are voting?
Purge the results! I wanna recount! Robble robble robble!
I can’t be bothered to count names anymore, but all the Orthodox voters (and one Eastern Catholic) said no.
Why do you think there is such a disagreement between Orthodox and Catholic responses to our question?
Most Catholics voted “yes” on the Catholic Thread with the same question.
Many of the Catholic responses were similar to Church Militant’s:
Just because we gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree that is the Kingdom of God, does not negate the covenant that God made with the Jews. Remember, as the scripture says, “salvation comes from the Jews” (John 4:22) so that tells me that they are indeed still His chosen people.
I think it’s a grave mistake to discount the Jewish faith and people for many reasons, not the least of which is that they still have their part to play in God’s plan for mankind.
One other verse comes to mind. Romans 11. . . .
Church Militant;6062600:
)I firmly agree. Though we are not Jews, there is no way (or reason) to ever think that the Jews are less than they ever have been to the Lord. That is not a teaching of the Catholic faith, and, as some very Jewish friends of mine have pointed out to me, they actually believe that it is easier for us gentiles to be saved than it is for them. I don’t exactly understand that, but it’s better by far than some of the stuff that some n-C Christians have to say about us Catholics, for which I am personally grateful.
I think St. Paul’s letter to the Romans I quoted above shows the humility with which we should approach our Jewish friends and I have learned a metric ton of things that have enhanced my Catholic faith. (For example: Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
Are they still God’s chosen people? According to both the New Testament (above) and the teachings of the Church (quoted below) certainly teach that they are.
Thanks,
Anna
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Nine_Two
Guest
Quite possibly a difference in definition of “choosen people” while Orthodox would agree that the Jews were choosen by God to bring salvation to the world (so in that sense a “choosen people”, that role has already been fullfilled, and is therefore past-tense.
Maybe in part because of this, when Orthodox hear the term they think of it as implicitly tied to salvation, and since the Orthodox Church only believes in one path to salvation, we dismiss any notion that sounds at all like it is championing another path.
Another possible reason, and I know this is going to come off as arrogant, and I do apologize, is that Catholic Theology, especially on the individual level, has been affected by the rise of Protestantism, especially in North America where the two religions are actively integrated, and there is a large number of Protestants who espouce Judaising theological beliefs. Of course in North America you have a similar situation with Orthodox living in the same conditions, but this is also far newer - Until recently Orthodox usually kept to themselves, and this is still largely true when it comes to religious events, as well there is such an influx of converts - people who have studied the faith in depth before coming to it, rather than being raised in it and having a vague idea what it’s about, that you end up with people who are more knowledgable about possitions within the Church.
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jimmy
Guest
It is interresting that the split is almost perfect between east and west. At this point there are ten that have said yes and they are all either Catholic or protestant. There are nine who have said no and they are all Orthodox except one Byzantine Catholic and an Assemblies of God.
This goes along with the modern western view of salvation outside the Church. It is as if the Church were the center circle in a series of concentric circles. As the circles move away from the center they have less and less truth. Rahner formulated his concept of the ‘Anonymous Christian’ along side of this.
I have to agree with the Orthodox. Hesychios summed it up pretty well; what does it mean that the Jews are still ‘chosen’? Do you somehow think there is salvation apart from Christ? Does Christ not recount how all of the OT points toward Him in Luke24? Christ is the final cause so to speak of the OT; it is Him that the OT is moving toward. Without Christ as the fulfillment there is no Judaism. To say that the Jewish people are still chosen is to say that there is such a thing as a covenant apart from Christ.
I think the difference between east and west is due partly to a stronger sense in the east of the Christological nature of all of theology. In the EO the Christology of Chalcedon is the key to all theology, but in the west the Christological doctrines are just one of many doctrines along side of eachother. Theoretically this might not be the case but practically it is. In the east the question, who is Christ, determines the nature of salvation and the sacraments and everything else. The sacraments, iconography, veneration of saints, ecclesiology, and etc. are an extension of Christology. I think that treating different doctrines as standing alone, apart from Christology, as is often done in the west allows for the possibility of a sacramental character of Judaism apart from Christ.
This goes along with the modern western view of salvation outside the Church. It is as if the Church were the center circle in a series of concentric circles. As the circles move away from the center they have less and less truth. Rahner formulated his concept of the ‘Anonymous Christian’ along side of this.
I have to agree with the Orthodox. Hesychios summed it up pretty well; what does it mean that the Jews are still ‘chosen’? Do you somehow think there is salvation apart from Christ? Does Christ not recount how all of the OT points toward Him in Luke24? Christ is the final cause so to speak of the OT; it is Him that the OT is moving toward. Without Christ as the fulfillment there is no Judaism. To say that the Jewish people are still chosen is to say that there is such a thing as a covenant apart from Christ.
I think the difference between east and west is due partly to a stronger sense in the east of the Christological nature of all of theology. In the EO the Christology of Chalcedon is the key to all theology, but in the west the Christological doctrines are just one of many doctrines along side of eachother. Theoretically this might not be the case but practically it is. In the east the question, who is Christ, determines the nature of salvation and the sacraments and everything else. The sacraments, iconography, veneration of saints, ecclesiology, and etc. are an extension of Christology. I think that treating different doctrines as standing alone, apart from Christology, as is often done in the west allows for the possibility of a sacramental character of Judaism apart from Christ.
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eOxy
Guest
We know that is the understanding of Western Christianity, based on sad augustinian errors.
Orthodox Christians know that all we need to do is to fight sin.
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SingleMomMonica
Guest
Why do the Catholics and Orthodox teach/believe differently in this matter? Depends on who you ask. But regardless of which Church split from which - the fact remains that we are two different Churches now. This alone should be enough to enough to understand that they teach/believe differently.
Anyway, as I mentioned before Salvation did indeed come from the Jews because Jesus Himself was a practicing Jew.
This though does NOT mean that their are now 2 Paths to Salvation: one for Jews through the modern-day Jewish Faith and one for everyone else through the Christian Faith. For one thing the modern-day Jewish Faith is *not even close *to what Judism was in Jesus’ time - example, the Jews haven’t for centuries upon centuries offered *any *Sacrifices to God. While modern-day Jews may claim it’s because the Temple was destroyed - that claim doesn’t hold a drop of water since their ancestors for centuries before a Temple was ever built and inbetween destructions/rebuilds of Temples had offered Sacrifices to God. Meanwhile, the modern-day Jews don’t even have possession of the Ark of the Covenant anymore, that’s been in the hands of the Orthodox Christians. Plus, at the Crucifixion of Christ, God Himself ripped the Temple Veil from Top to Bottom (wasn’t like 3 feet thick or something?) - God Himself, in this action of His, made it clear that it is NOT His Will for anyone to follow the Jewish Faith after Christ’s death and resurrection.
Again, the New Testament is clear that there is no longer any distinction between Jews and Greeks or Jews and Gentiles. The Jews, Greeks and Gentiles that are Christian are just that…Christian - followers of Christ and members of His Church. Also, the early Church Fathers also made it clear that Christians are not to have anything to do with the Jewish Faith - even anathmatizing anyone who dared to celebrate Pascha (Easter) during the Jewish Passover.
Remember that even Jesus, who established the Church, Himself said that He came for the Jews first to draw them in to Himself/His Church. Many Jews did become the first Christians, Apostles and Martyrs - then the Church was opened to the Greeks and Gentiles.
God initially had a Covenant with a couple (Adam/Eve), then a family (Noah’s), then a tribe (Jacob’s Tribe), then a nation (Israel) and now the entire human race (the Orthodox Church). God had chosen that line, setting it apart, because He was preparing it for His Own Incarnation so that He could restore all of humanity.
Through Christ’s establishment of the Church, God has opened up “His Chosen” from a nation of one people to all of humanity. Any and every member of the Human Race is invited and welcomed to become one of God’s Chosen People by Joining the Church which Christ (God Himself) established. Jews continue individually, like in the days during and immediately after Christ’s time on earth, come to join Christ’s Church.
I reiterate that just because those who maintain the modern-day Jewish Faith are not the “Chosen People” does NOT mean in anyway that they are any less loved by God. God loves each member of the human race! His love is completely unconditional! He loves regardless of whether or not a person has a clear or unclear understanding of Who He is.
The Scriptures do say that “EVERY Knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD”. The Scriptures DO NOT say that every knee, except Jewish knees, and ever tongue, except Jewish tongues.
Everyone who wants to worship the One True God must worship Him as He wants to be worshipped. He made it clear how He wants to be worshipped when He tore the Jewish Temple curtain and established the Christian Church.
With the overwhelming evidence of in the New Testament and the early Church Fathers, I don’t see how anyone can hold another position - but maybe I’m just ignorant? I’m not trying to just tote the line by stating what the Orthodox Church believes on this issue, I believe it whole-heartedly, because it’s seems like basic common sense to me.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
I had to smile, when I read your comment about the Protestant influence on Catholicism; since I am Protestant, but my views seem to become more “Catholic” as time passes.
Throughout history, religions have absorbed traditions from other religions. It may seem that Christians are Judaizing theological beliefs, but I think we are simply undoing some of the damage from centuries of villanizing the Jewish people. The “Jewishness” of Christ and the Disciples and Apostles was minimized for so long. The Jews were called “Christ killers,” and all sorts of hateful names; not the mention the “blood libel” and other horrendous accusations.
When I look at pictures of Christ in local Churches, Christ is white with sandy blond hair and blue eyes. All traces of his “Jewishness” have been removed, even in art.
In a sense, we are rediscovering the “Jewish” Jesus. I agree with those who see salvation as a process that began long before the birth of Christ. When Christ came he fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.
I think we are living in the time of the Gentiles being grafted into Israel and being made heirs to the promises given to Abraham. There is more to come, as we are told in Romans Chapter 11:
1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8as it is written,
Code:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not seedown to this very day."
9 And David says,
Code:
"Let their table become a snare and a trap,10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever."
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
Code:
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
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eOxy
Guest
Exactly.
It did come from the Jews.
Thus spoken Orthodoxy.
It should also be noted that the answer to the question being the subject matter of this thread has never been taught in Orthodoxy. It just logically comes from the fullness of the teaching to every Orthodox.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
jimmy & SingleMomMonica,
Thank you for the interesting comments.
I don’t think anyone who believes the Jews are still God’s “chosen people,” believe they have a different path to salvation–at least not from the posts I’ve read.
The concensus seems to be that a partial hardening has come over Israel, until the full number of Gentiles has come in. There is an expectation of a mass conversion of the Jews a some point in history.
I quoted the full chapter of Romans 11 in my last post. What is the Orthodox interpretation of Romans Chapter 11?
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Anna
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Regarding salvation of the Jews, Michael posted a great link to quotes from the ECF, including Turtullian, St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Prosper of Aquitaine, and many more.
I think this is an important aspect of discussing whether or not the Jewish people are still a “chosen people.”
Here are a few quotes (emphasis is mine throughout):
**St. Augustine: **
“A) City of God, XX chapter 29
Of the Coming of Elias Before the Judgment, that the Jews May Be Converted to
Christ by His Preaching and Explanation of Scripture…. **It is a familiar theme in the
conversation and heart of the faithful, that in the last days before the judgment the
Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ” **
Note: Here Augustine indicates that the idea of the conversion of the Jews is
“a familiar theme” among “the faithful”, once again indicating that this belief was not his own speculation but that it was well-known.
**St. Cyril of Alexandria: **
"A) Commentary on Genesis, Bk. 5
Towards the end of time, Our Lord Jesus Christ will effect the reconciliation of His
former persecutor Israel with Himself. Everybody who knows Holy Scripture is aware that, in the course of time, this people will return to the love of Christ by the
submission of faith . . . Yes, one day, after the conversion of the Gentiles, Israel
will be converted, and the Jews will be astonished at the treasure they will find in Christ."
(Note: Here St. Cyril states that this belief is common knowledge for Catholics, not
merely his own personal view.)
Turtullian:
"A) On Modesty, chapter 7:
Chapter VIII.—Of the Prodigal Son.
For they set down, as represented in the two sons, two peoples—the elder the Jewish,
the younger the Christian: for they cannot in the sequel arrange for the Christian sinner,
in the person of the younger son, to obtain pardon, unless in the person of the elder they first portray the Jewish…….And accordingly the Jew at the present day, no less than the
younger son, having squandered God’s substance, is a beggar in alien territory, serving
even until now its princes, that is, the princes of this world. Seek, therefore, the Christians some other as their brother; for the Jew the parable does not admit. Much more aptly would they have matched the Christian with the elder, and the Jew with the younger son, “according to the analogy of faith,” if the order of each people as intimated from Rebecca’s womb permitted the inversion: only that (in that case) the concluding paragraph would oppose them; for it will be fitting for the Christian to rejoice, and not to grieve, at the restoration of Israel, if it be true, (as it is), that the whole of our hope is intimately united with the remaining expectation of Israel (Rom 1 1:25)."
I welcome comments on the Orthodox view, and anyone else who wants to join in.
Anna
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jimmy
Guest
If the chosenness of the Jews only means that they will be converted to Christ at some point then there probably won’t be any argument about that. To say that the Jews will be converted at some time in the future doesn’t put any value on the Jewish religion though. All it says is that they will be converted, and it might base this on their relation to the Old Testament which points toward Christ. As many of the fathers said, the new testament is hidden in the old and the old is revealed in the new. Christ is the fulfillment of the OT and so maybe you could say the Jews are urged toward salvation. But the Jews are called to salvation like everyone else. The Mosaic covenant doesn’t save as Paul makes clear throughout his letters; it is through Christ that we are saved.
This doesn’t seem to imply chosenness though. The Jews are not the recievers of the covenant any more than the gentiles, who have been converted to Christ. Whether you are Jew or gentile it doesn’t matter, you will recieve the same call to salvation.
This doesn’t seem to imply chosenness though. The Jews are not the recievers of the covenant any more than the gentiles, who have been converted to Christ. Whether you are Jew or gentile it doesn’t matter, you will recieve the same call to salvation.
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SingleMomMonica
Guest
Romans 11: begins with verse *1 “I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” *
**The author of this book was writing as a Jewish member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. He says that God has not cast away His people - they were, like the author, the first offered the salvation that Christ offered through His Church. **
in verse “20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.”
The author now speaks of those Jews who do not accept Christ and are not members of His Church stating that they have broken themselves off from God’s “Chosen”.
Then in verse “23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
The author now says that when Jews come to believe in Christ God is able & will graft them back into the “Chosen People” aka the Church. This btw that has continued to happen convert by convert through out the centuries of the Church. I believe earlier in this thread I provided a link to a book written by one such convert who is now an Orthodox Priest.
In verse “28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.”
The author now says that the non-Christian Jews are enemies of the gospel, but that that God still loves them.
In verse: “29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
The author says that God will perpetually call the Jews, like every other race, to Himself -into the His Church - that the gift of Salvation given by Christ through the Church is for everyone, including the Jews.
In verses* “For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.”*
The author reiterates that God is merciful to both Jews and Non-Jews alike. Then he goes on to talk about how majestic God is and how far above our ways are His. Glory to God forever!
**The author of this book was writing as a Jewish member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. He says that God has not cast away His people - they were, like the author, the first offered the salvation that Christ offered through His Church. **
in verse “20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.”
The author now speaks of those Jews who do not accept Christ and are not members of His Church stating that they have broken themselves off from God’s “Chosen”.
Then in verse “23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
The author now says that when Jews come to believe in Christ God is able & will graft them back into the “Chosen People” aka the Church. This btw that has continued to happen convert by convert through out the centuries of the Church. I believe earlier in this thread I provided a link to a book written by one such convert who is now an Orthodox Priest.
In verse “28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.”
The author now says that the non-Christian Jews are enemies of the gospel, but that that God still loves them.
In verse: “29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
The author says that God will perpetually call the Jews, like every other race, to Himself -into the His Church - that the gift of Salvation given by Christ through the Church is for everyone, including the Jews.
In verses* “For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.”*
The author reiterates that God is merciful to both Jews and Non-Jews alike. Then he goes on to talk about how majestic God is and how far above our ways are His. Glory to God forever!
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Michael_Forrest
Guest
Anna pointed me to this thread. You may find the following article that I wrote with David Palm of some use. It’s about the relationship among Jews, Christians and God.
cuf.org/Laywitness/LWonline/ja09forrest.asp
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Hesychios
Guest
I think that this is a good point to remember.
It’s just not a question that comes up in Orthodox circles, no micro-analysis and no splitting atoms at this end of the room.
With some of these questions (no disrespect intended at all) we have to ask ourselves “what does this question mean?”
The terms are not ‘pre-loaded’ for us. We may have to unpack them, so the initial response may be something like a blank stare and some mumbling …
But for us, the church is the Body of Christ. That’s it, we are not given any exceptions or “what-if’s”. I never really thought much about it before but to me Jews are just like everybody else, they need conversion.
Heck … I need conversion! We all do … again and again.
When a Jew, Italian, Punjabi, Chinese, Bulgarian or Yoruba becomes (especially an Orthodox) Christian that’s a good thing. If they fall out, or their children don’t follow them, that’s a bad and a sad thing.
Jews are just like everybody else.
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eOxy
Guest
S
SingleMomMonica
Guest
The comment was perfect. Short, concise and accurate.
I wish I could be a person of few words!
It would make life so much easier.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
SingleMomMonica,
Thank you for commenting on Romans 11. This gives me a better understanding of the Orthodox view.
I am running the same question on another Thread for Catholics. It is very interesting to see how differently emphasis is applied to the same passage of Scripture.
For some, the emphasis in Romans 11:28 is placed on the the Jews being “enemies of the Gospel.” For others, the emphasis is placed on the Jews being enemies of the Gospel “for our sake,” and that concerning “election,” they are “beloved for the sake of the fathers.”
In Romans 11:25-27, we are told a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. This indicates that the “hardening” will only last, until the full number of Gentiles have come in.
What happens next? What happens when the “hardening” of the Jewish heart is removed?
The Jews are concerning election, beloved for the sake of the fathers. Isn’t that saying the Jews really are different from other non-Christians?
Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
Do you believe there will be a mass conversion of the Jews at some point in history–after the “partial hardening” has been lifted?
Thank you so much for your comments,
Anna
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