Orthodox bishop shares Communion with Catholics

[mardukm]

Are there any Macedonian Orthodox who are excluded from Holy Communion in every other Orthodox Church?

yes there are, which comprises about 64% of the population of the Republic of Macedonia.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Hesychios]

Hello brother Marduk,

yes there are, which comprises about 64% of the population of the Republic of Macedonia.

Blessings,
Marduk

This is, of course, incorrect. You may be overlaying a Catholic understanding on this situation.

The Orthodox of Macedonia are still Orthodox as everyone knows, we are not referring to heretics here and their souls are not in danger if they are not in submission to the "correct’ patriarch. They are not “anathema” for not believing certain dogma or believing anything extra. Their situation does not resemble anything you might know as a Catholic under the Pope.

The hierarchs and clergy do not concelebrate with outside Orthodox hierarchs and clergy at present (since these separated themselves from the Serbian Orthodox). That is the essential fact.

The laity are not forbidden to approach the chalice outside of their own church, and in the diaspora (where alternatives are most likely to be available) Macedonians can be found attending any other Orthodox parishes. They have to make a recent confession before communion like everyone else and don’t have to confess sympathy for Macedonian autocephaly.
*
Michael*

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Hesychios,

Hello brother Marduk, This is, of course, incorrect. You may be overlaying a Catholic understanding on this situation.

The Orthodox of Macedonia are still Orthodox as everyone knows, we are not referring to heretics here and their souls are not in danger if they are not in submission to the "correct’ patriarch. They are not “anathema” for not believing certain dogma or believing anything extra. Their situation does not resemble anything you might know as a Catholic under the Pope.

The hierarchs and clergy do not concelebrate with outside Orthodox hierarchs and clergy at present (since these separated themselves from the Serbian Orthodox). That is the essential fact.

The laity are not forbidden to approach the chalice outside of their own church, and in the diaspora (where alternatives are most likely to be available) Macedonians can be found attending any other Orthodox parishes. They have to make a recent confession before communion like everyone else and don’t have to confess sympathy for Macedonian autocephaly.
*
Michael*

Please explain this a bit more. I have a lot of questions, and they will grow from this first:
Is or is not the self-proclaimed autocephalous Macedonian Orthodox Church (which represents about 64% of all Macedonians) in schism from the Ohrid Archbishopric/the rest of Orthodoxy?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[bobzills]

Dear brother Hesychios,

Please explain this a bit more. I have a lot of questions, and they will grow from this first:
Is or is not the self-proclaimed autocephalous Macedonian Orthodox Church (which represents about 64% of all Macedonians) in schism from the Ohrid Archbishopric/the rest of Orthodoxy?

Blessings,
Marduk

I think that there is a problem with what constitutes the country or the people of Macedonia. There is a dispute between Bulgaria, Greece, and the former yugoslavian republic of Macedonia on this.

 

[mardukm]

I think that there is a problem with what constitutes the country or the people of Macedonia. There is a dispute between Bulgaria, Greece, and the former yugoslavian republic of Macedonia on this.

That shouldn’t affect the question or answer.

Blessings

 

[bobzills]

That shouldn’t affect the question or answer.

Blessings

I take the opposite view on this.
Let me give you a different example: The former Soviet Republic of Moldavia. Romania claims it as part of its country, whereas Russia claims it as part of Bessarabia. Under Communism, it was largely under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church. After the fall of communism there has been a movement to unite with Romania and the Romanian Orthodox Church has opened Churches under its jurisdiction. This has created friction between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church.
Obviously, the cases are not the same, however, there is a dispute going on today between Bulgaria, Greece, and Macedonia, and why would not such a dispute spill over into jurisdictional questions in the respective Orthodox Churches?

 

[mardukm]

I take the opposite view on this.
Let me give you a different example: The former Soviet Republic of Moldavia. Romania claims it as part of its country, whereas Russia claims it as part of Bessarabia. Under Communism, it was largely under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church. After the fall of communism there has been a movement to unite with Romania and the Romanian Orthodox Church has opened Churches under its jurisdiction. This has created friction between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church.
Obviously, the cases are not the same, however, there is a dispute going on today between Bulgaria, Greece, and Macedonia, and why would not such a dispute spill over into jurisdictional questions in the respective Orthodox Churches?

But we’re not talking about jurisdictional disputes with other countries. We’re talking about a dispute within the borders of the Republic of Macedonia (regardless of how OTHER countries view those borders).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[bobzills]

But we’re not talking about jurisdictional disputes with other countries. We’re talking about a dispute within the borders of the Republic of Macedonia (regardless of how OTHER countries view those borders).

Blessings,
Marduk

Please see:
youtube.com/watch?v=7475RVx1Iro&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=fDp4gG7nEjA&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=j0zkgXdRhu8
youtube.com/watch?v=33eFASRnhLw&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=pSM6lOxo-fQ&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=KJqmHQcR-9g

 

[Hesychios]

Dear brother Hesychios,

Please explain this a bit more. I have a lot of questions, and they will grow from this first:
Is or is not the self-proclaimed autocephalous Macedonian Orthodox Church (which represents about 64% of all Macedonians) in schism from the Ohrid Archbishopric/the rest of Orthodoxy?

Blessings,
Marduk

They are Orthodox, no one disputes that.

Therefore the Macedonian Orthodox laity are welcome to attend any other Orthodox church. They simply need to establish a relationship with the local priest.

Likewise, other Orthodox can attend or visit a Macedonian Orthodox parish. There is no question of validity of sacraments or purity of their teachings. None of that is at issue.

They are truly Orthodox, the dispute is about the reporting order of the church, the Serbian Orthodox church maintains that it should be a part of their synod, the EP maintains that if they do not wish to be part of the Serbian church they should return to the EP. They want to be autocephalous.

Until it gets sorted out they will not commemorate other hierarchs in their dyptichs and their Archbishop will have to provide the Holy Chrism. The clergy will not be able to concelebrate on neighboring altars and neighboring clergy will not concelebrate on their altars. If either attend a Divine Liturgy of another Orthodox church they will not vest.

I remember this being the situation for ROCOR for a number of years. The OCA and ROCOR had a lot of people who would attend the one or the other depending upon circumstances, but when the clergy would visit they would not vest. Since ROCOR has regularized it’s relationship with the MP, they routinely concelebrate and at least one ROCOR bishop has already ordained clergy for the OCA as a visiting bishop. Now they can actually work together.

I see this Macedonian situation to be similar (except that relations between the parties are not as cordial), the ‘nationalists’ in Macedonia are keen to have their own Patriarch it seems (or at least autocephaly), but on a practical level the business of saving souls goes on. The original instigators of this whole thing (essentially secular politicians) are the ones keeping it a live issue, working in the background, and the thing has a life of it’s own. It would be nice of the problem were settled one way or another, ideally they should be included in dialog with the west.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Michael,

They are Orthodox, no one disputes that.

Therefore the Macedonian Orthodox laity are welcome to attend any other Orthodox church. They simply need to establish a relationship with the local priest.

Likewise, other Orthodox can attend or visit a Macedonian Orthodox parish. There is no question of validity of sacraments or purity of their teachings. None of that is at issue.

They are truly Orthodox, the dispute is about the reporting order of the church, the Serbian Orthodox church maintains that it should be a part of their synod, the EP maintains that if they do not wish to be part of the Serbian church they should return to the EP. They want to be autocephalous.

Until it gets sorted out they will not commemorate other hierarchs in their dyptichs and their Archbishop will have to provide the Holy Chrism. The clergy will not be able to concelebrate on neighboring altars and neighboring clergy will not concelebrate on their altars. If either attend a Divine Liturgy of another Orthodox church they will not vest.

I remember this being the situation for ROCOR for a number of years. The OCA and ROCOR had a lot of people who would attend the one or the other depending upon circumstances, but when the clergy would visit they would not vest. Since ROCOR has regularized it’s relationship with the MP, they routinely concelebrate and at least one ROCOR bishop has already ordained clergy for the OCA as a visiting bishop. Now they can actually work together.

I see this Macedonian situation to be similar (except that relations between the parties are not as cordial), the ‘nationalists’ in Macedonia are keen to have their own Patriarch it seems (or at least autocephaly), but on a practical level the business of saving souls goes on. The original instigators of this whole thing (essentially secular politicians) are the ones keeping it a live issue, working in the background, and the thing has a life of it’s own. It would be nice of the problem were settled one way or another, ideally they should be included in dialog with the west.

Thank you for your explanation. My understanding was based on the incessant criticism of the Catholic understanding of “validity” which includes “validity despite schism” and “validity despite perceived heresy in some circumstances.” But I guess “validity despite schism” is accepted by the EO. That’s good to know.

It seems brother John (Prodomos) does not share in your view. This would reflect a hardline approach akin to what was practiced in the early Church - that schism was just as bad as heresy.

I guess both viewpoints are accepted within EO’xy? Please respond.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[White_Russian]

I have Russian Orthodox extended family (I am Roman Catholic). When one of the family married in the Orthodox church, the priest announced only Orthodox could receive communion. For an Orthodox to receive communion in any church, they must first get permission of the Orthodox priest. Thecongregations are small and the priest knows every in the congregation. Therefore he can walk away from someone who is not Orthodox while giving communion.

 

[White_Russian]

Their feelings run very deep about Catholics, and especially Eastern Catholics. I believe we were called “blind”. It is a shame that that kind of feeling is ingrained in other Christians.

Yes, unfortunately, some of the Orthodox priests are not very nice towards the Catholic faith. One of the priests said to me when I reminded him of our shared heritage: "we have more in common with the Protestants than with the Latins. they still use the words, "Latins,’ and especially, “Franks” as perjorative terms. I have been with the Orthodox part of my family for over 40 years and they are wonderful blessed people, and sometimes they get embarrased over the behavior of their priest towards the Latins or Franks. By the way, the term “Franks” is still used because of the lingering animosity (800 years!) due to the Fourth Crusade. Talk about holding a grudge. But my relatives tell me that this priest comes from a Moscow seminary and they have the “attitude.” Many of the priests in America come from American seminaries and do not have the “attitude” as my relatives say.

 

[Hesychios]

Dear brother Michael,
It seems brother John (Prodomos) does not share in your view. This would reflect a hardline approach akin to what was practiced in the early Church - that schism was just as bad as heresy.

I guess both viewpoints are accepted within EO’xy? Please respond.

Blessings,
Marduk

Please do not mistake my comments for a justification of schism, I do not approve. I think schism is not healthy for the church in the very least.

John commented primarily on the origin of the schism. A schism which seems to me for the most part a fabrication, like the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Church (or Association, I guess). It’s basically secular politics victimizing the Body of Christ and dividing the community.

So one could think the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association is not Catholic, or one might proclaim “oh, yes it is!” Who’s to say… are the sacraments valid? Are they both saving souls? Is it really a schism or something else?

What will we think after it’s all over?

There was a similar schism, believe it or not, in Latin Catholic Poland in the 1950’s. Eventually the state backed bishops and the non-state backed bishops got together under Stefan Cardinal Wyszyński and put the schism behind them. (I think it was resolved in 1956 or 1957.)

I respect John immensely and I do not see our comments as contradictory, he made strong and insightful comments about the origin of the little church. We can say that the origin of the schism was not Orthodox, and the continued conflict seems like a manifestation of Phyletism (not sure, but it could be). But I don’t see it the case that the people believe anything different, or that the Holy Mysteries confected by Macedonian Orthodox clergy are not effective and real.

What we have here is a tragedy that will take some time to heal.

Michael

 

[Scoop49]

The Catholic Church allows Orthodox (and Lutherans I’m thinking) to receive Communion when they can’t get it elsewhere. Thus, Catholic chaplains on Canadian warships can give Communion to Orthodox (maybe Lutheran) believers, probably Extreme Unction too.

 

[bobzills]

Please do not mistake my comments for a justification of schism, I do not approve. I think schism is not healthy for the church in the very least.

John commented primarily on the origin of the schism. A schism which seems to me for the most part a fabrication, like the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Church (or Association, I guess). It’s basically secular politics victimizing the Body of Christ and dividing the community.

So one could think the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association is not Catholic, or one might proclaim “oh, yes it is!” Who’s to say… are the sacraments valid? Are they both saving souls? Is it really a schism or something else?

What will we think after it’s all over?

Does this have anything to do with the Roman Catholic teaching on artificial birth control and the one child one family rule of the pro-contraceptive Chinese Communist government?
Also please see the following site:
cardinalkungfoundation.org/

 

[Hesychios]

Does this have anything to do with the Roman Catholic teaching on artificial birth control and the one child one family rule of the pro-contraceptive Chinese Communist government?
Also please see the following site:
cardinalkungfoundation.org/

The establishment of the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association precedes those other issues you mention, although it is probably compromised on those issue now.

It should be noted that the Holy See recognizes some of the bishops of that body, although they were not picked by the Papacy. The Chinese community moves between the above ground and the below ground church, regarding the sacraments the same.

It’s a mess, certainly.

The Macedonian church is not separate because it’s government wants it to help support questionable or sinful social policies. It’s government (in part) wants this church independent to help assure that the little country does not get swallowed up by it’s neighbors, chiefly by reinforcing the notion that the Macedonian people are a unique and deeply historical nationality.

It fact, they do not appear to be connected to the original Macedonians of ancient history in a very significant or meaningful way, other than the fact that they occupy part of the old kingdoms land.

 

[White_Russian]

A question which causes me some concern:

I am also referring to his desire to cede the churches stolen from the Romanian Catholics back to the Catholic Church) might be left to hang.

Marduk, are you a Banater? My grandparents (Donneschwaben [sp]) emigrated from the Banat early in the 20th century. They had a thriving Catholic community there, as it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. However, when the British, Italians and French, changed the face of Europe (not for the better), Banat was ceded to the Rumanians after the First World War as the “spoils of war,” the Churches were confiscated by the Rumanian government and Catholics and Lutherans were subject to harrassment by the Orthodox Church leaders to convert.

 

[Valentin]

hi White Russian. Never heard there were Russians in Banat. My grand mother is from Banat, Bulgarian. we still have relatives there. i think Italo-Franko-English did good for Europe, otherwise Putin’s empire would be much bigger now. i am also wondering, in such case whether we would have computers, mobiles, tvs…

 

[Spiller]

Yes, unfortunately, some of the Orthodox priests are not very nice towards the Catholic faith. One of the priests said to me when I reminded him of our shared heritage: "we have more in common with the Protestants than with the Latins. they still use the words, "Latins,’ and especially, “Franks” as perjorative terms. I have been with the Orthodox part of my family for over 40 years and they are wonderful blessed people, and sometimes they get embarrased over the behavior of their priest towards the Latins or Franks. By the way, the term “Franks” is still used because of the lingering animosity (800 years!) due to the Fourth Crusade. Talk about holding a grudge. But my relatives tell me that this priest comes from a Moscow seminary and they have the “attitude.” Many of the priests in America come from American seminaries and do not have the “attitude” as my relatives say.

That’s one of the most un-Christian attributes I see from the EO.

 

[White_Russian]

hi White Russian. Never heard there were Russians in Banat. My grand mother is from Banat, Bulgarian. we still have relatives there. i think Italo-Franko-English did good for Europe, otherwise Putin’s empire would be much bigger now. i am also wondering, in such case whether we would have computers, mobiles, tvs…

I am Russian on my mother’s side. My father’s family came from the Banat. They were Donneschwaben (The ethnic germans who came from Swabia, Germany via the Danube river). They were from a little village called Triebswetter (the German name) and ; then the Hungarians called it GrosNagy (sp?)l then after WWI, the Rumanians renamed it Tomnatic., Very rich culture and tradition. They were fluent in both Hungarian and German. hence, they were called German-Hungarians. After WWII, the communists “relocated” many of the ethnic germans to the Gulags. Their numbers are very low now. My Grandmother wrote to the Red Cross after the war to try and locate her sisters, but the Red Cross only said they were “relocated…”

My father and his brother and sister lived there during the '20’s and’30’s, and they used to tell wonderful stories about the gypsy encampments and the traditional weddings in the village. The gypsies would come to the wedding and play for the guests.