Orthodox Catholic Reversion

[samcarter14]

Boy, I would love to hear your story… hint, hint…

Well, long story short; we were drawn to the Eastern Church through the Divine Liturgy and the practices of infant communion, among other issues. We didn’t know there was a Byzantine Catholic chapel in our area (it’s very small), and were welcomed heartily by the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) parish in our town. We had just had our youngest, and he was baptized while the rest of us were chrismated–we did not receive baptism, however. I would have been shocked if the priest there had insisted on re-baptizing us!

After several very disappointing situations and events, the details of which I won’t go into (though I will share at one point we feared for our childrens’ safety), we found through an Internet search the Byzantine Catholic church here in our area, and attended. We found all that we had been searching for in the Eastern Church, with the added blessing of being back in communion with Rome (and my in laws, who had been very distressed about our conversion). My husband had come to the realization about just how hard it was to not be able to attend liturgy with his own parents and take communion. You’d never realize how hard that is after a lifetime of sharing the same faith and church.

 

[tdgesq]

He became Byzantine Rite by virtue of his being EO.

Normally I would agree with this, but this isn’t a normal situation. He was a Roman Catholic and converted to EO. Had he switched rites in the Catholic Church before converting, then that would be one thing. It seems that the assumption here (and maybe there is some canon law that speaks to this) is that by converting he automatically switched rites.

Transfer out of the Latin Rite is actually encouraged by the Vatican II post-conciliar documents; transfer back to the Latin is discouraged. Realize, tho’, that those documents are pastoral, not legislative, in nature.

It is encouraged for those Catholics whose traditions were swallowed up during periods of latinization, but not for those who truly are and always have been Roman Catholic. I don’t think Orientalium Ecclesiarum is meant to encourage somebody like me who comes from many generations of Germanic Roman Catholics to switch rites.

The CIC canons do not discuss the orthodox much, since they are considered enrolled in the parallel Church Sui Iuris automatically. in fact, the only CIC references to the Orthodox entail reciept of sacraments.

True. The CIC says very little about the Orthodox except with respect to their reception of the sacraments, which is part of the reason I am unsure about the conditions of return to the Catholic Church of a former Latin Rite Catholic. If the conversion had been made to Anglicism, the person could clearly come back to the Roman Catholic Church after receiving the sacrament of reconciliation. I don’t know why the result would be any different for an Orthodox revert unless the CCEO applies. I guess it comes down to which code of canons is applicable in this case.

It is a fuzzy area, but that the Orthodox are received by profession of faith is in the CCEO.

I agree, into an Eastern Catholic Church per CCEO 897. Hmmm… there definitely is an issue here. I will try to contact a canon lawyer in the next few days to see if I can get some insight on this since I don’t want to be giving anybody incorrect advice.

 

[Timothy_Capps]

When I left the Roman Catholic church I was rearing children and there were things going on in my neck of the woods that made me think seriously about whether the Catholic church was a spiritually (and physically) safe place. As regards the former, my church seemed innovative and secularized. You could enjoy a nice performance from the pianist and other musicians, and would sometimes be surprised by young girls doing a dance. Being in a college town, the line between Church and liberal elements of the Democrat party seemed blurred to me. There was also the time televisions were rolled in for a taped financial appeal. I am not saying this to bash, but it is part of the story.

When we discovered an Orthodox church the Divine Liturgy was everything we were feeling we were missing. It was dignified, beautiful, and consistent. No more teeth-gritting or mental eye-rolling. Just worship for grownups. It was not something we jumped into, but a serious step based on where we were coming from and what we had found.

Then there were priests coming and going, one under a cloud of misconduct. As most people know now, the OCA went through a long and bitter period of financial and sexual scandal, which undermined my confidence in it, although our own bishop was probably as close to a hero of the piece as there was. The recurrent absence of a priest aggravated my own frustrations, since it was hard to work through in a sacramental vacuum.

Another aspect of Orthodoxy that we did not give sufficient attention to is the ethic one. Not that people were not welcoming, because they were, far more than I deserved, I am sure. But I doubt I am the only convert to feel like I was sometimes playing at being Russian because it was tacitly expected, and who doubted he would ever really fit in. People like to make fun of Orthodox converts because of their enthusiasm, but the flip side of that may have something to do with feeling like you’re just not really fitting in, and if you just try a little harder…

I have probably offended everyone by now, but I also take full responsibility for my own immaturity in some reactions and expectations.

When I had to move on account of work, suddenly I discovered a whole Catholic world that seemed more vibrant and universal than I had ever imagined. This is probably one of the most Catholic areas in the country. I practically live across the street from Our Lady of the Snows shrine. My TV flips back and forth between EWTN and the news and that 's about it. Since I live alone, I started praying the Rosary and feel much more at peace than I ever did with my prayer rope. Most of all, there are any number of churches offering worship in a way I can comfortably and profitably participate in. So some of it is “when in Rome…”

So although Orthodoxy had challenging aspects, as I am contemplating (and that is what I am doing now) returning to the faith of my youth, I certainly harbor no bitterness or reasonable disappointment toward the Orthodox Church. I think it is a wonderful home – I am just wondering if it is MY home.

So please understand that I love BOTH churches and am one of those people that believe they are separated mainly by a tragic lack of goodwill historically, not because of fundamental theological differences. (I am aware of the arguments to the contrary from both camps.). I do not want to leave the impression that I found any Orthodox people in any way lacking – other than myself at any rate. The ethnic thing is what it is and I am prepared to admit it is my problem not anyone else’s. The multiple foreign jurisdictions, however, in this country is perhaps the least attractive thing about Orthodoxy for me, though.

 

[Timothy_Capps]

I would find it odd if I were now in some Eastern Rite. I’m not sure I would prefer that, and do not understand what practical difference it would make. Probably the last thing I would want is to be put in an (another) ethnically defined church.

 

[wynd]

The ethnic thing is what it is and I am prepared to admit it is my problem not anyone else’s.

Surely you realize that this depends on the area and even the parish you attend, just as it depends on the area or parish whether you have a faithful or “innovative” Catholic community.

The multiple foreign jurisdictions, however, in this country is perhaps the least attractive thing about Orthodoxy for me, though.

Unfortunately I can’t disagree with you here. The most I can say is that this is not the way things are supposed to be.

 

[samcarter14]

Timothy, your experience is almost a mirror of my family’s. We also were dismayed at the current state of the RCC, especially the larger parish we belonged to–it felt empty, spiritually, though it was full of people at every Mass.

Like you, we were members of the OCA, and I believe we shared the same bishop (we were also in the Diocese of the Midwest). However, the ethnic issue was a very relevant one; there was a strong Russian and Greek influence in our church, and my husband tired of being asked if he was Greek (he is dark haired and dark-skinned, but not Greek!).

We currently attend a Byzantine Ruthenian parish, which has roots in the Hungarian tradition; we don’ t have our own church but share a Roman Catholic Hungarian parish with the Latin Catholics. Nobody has even asked if we’re Hungarian; I think maybe only two or three other people there are actually 100% Hungarian. I actually am part Hungarian, but nobody has made it a big deal.

The only issue might be the language used in liturgy. For the most part our liturgy is sung in English; at times the “Holy God, Holy Mighty” is sung in the old Slovakian (I think that’s the language), but our cantor leads and nobody is told they need to learn the Slovak.

So, if you’re worried about the ethnicity of the rite, my only suggestion would be to visit any Eastern Catholic churches you can–I know the Maronites in our area are Lebanese and very strongly identify with that ethnicity, but the Ruthenian parish I am in does not.

 

[Timothy_Capps]

Surely you realize that this depends on the area and even the parish you attend, just as it depends on the area or parish whether you have a faithful or “innovative” Catholic community.

It wasn’t like there were people constantly shoving it our faces. It was just a feeling that, due to the ethnic identity we were and always would be guests in someone else’s home. No matter how hospitable the host, one still wants his own home. It is my impression that this my be less of an issue with the Antiochians who seem to be trying a little more self- consciously to be convert- friendly. And I am aware that the new OCA Metropolitan is a convert. I believe this will be less of an issue in the future as ethnic identity faded with the passing of generations.

An undenable appeal of the Catholic Church is the multiple-ethnic face at one service. It feels less clubbish, and is good for me in particular, since I am not always the most understanding or appreciative of other types of people.

 

[chrisb]

Well, long story short; we were drawn to the Eastern Church through the Divine Liturgy and the practices of infant communion, among other issues. We didn’t know there was a Byzantine Catholic chapel in our area (it’s very small), and were welcomed heartily by the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) parish in our town. We had just had our youngest, and he was baptized while the rest of us were chrismated–we did not receive baptism, however. I would have been shocked if the priest there had insisted on re-baptizing us!

After several very disappointing situations and events, the details of which I won’t go into (though I will share at one point we feared for our childrens’ safety), we found through an Internet search the Byzantine Catholic church here in our area, and attended. We found all that we had been searching for in the Eastern Church, with the added blessing of being back in communion with Rome (and my in laws, who had been very distressed about our conversion). My husband had come to the realization about just how hard it was to not be able to attend liturgy with his own parents and take communion. You’d never realize how hard that is after a lifetime of sharing the same faith and church.

Thank you for sharing. I have contemplated entering Holy Orthodoxy and am currently attending a OCA Parish with a very large ethnic (Russian) population in it but I don’t mind that overly much but I can understand Timothy’s and your comments. Thank you both for sharing.

Perhaps in the future I would like to talk with you more about this as I make my own way.

 

[Timothy_Capps]

My wife and I had a veey frank discussion last night and she, too, felt somewhat intimidated by the ethnic situation. But, really, the soul-searching I am having to do now is deciding if I erred or even sinned by changing churches when a better choice would have been to stay and continue to try to make it work for us. In Orthodoxy, it seemed like a lot of attention was paid by us to “being Orthodox” as a cultural expression rather than being Christian in the Orthodox Church. What you gain needs to be balanced against the “naturalness” and ease of the familiar, which lets you concentrate on the road and getting to the correct destination rather than the mechanics of driving an unfamiliar and complicated vehicle.

Anyway, my purpose is not to criticize anyone, and it would take a book to give all the reasons good and bad for where I am at this moment. The big thing is I am surrounded by a Catholic environment which offers near ubiquitous spiritual support on a daily basis, and, being separated from family I really need to be a part of something in my own community and home.

 

[mercygate]

When I left the Roman Catholic church I was rearing children and there were things going on in my neck of the woods that made me think seriously about whether the Catholic church was a spiritually (and physically) safe place. As regards the former, my church seemed innovative and secularized. You could enjoy a nice performance from the pianist and other musicians, and would sometimes be surprised by young girls doing a dance. Being in a college town, the line between Church and liberal elements of the Democrat party seemed blurred to me. There was also the time televisions were rolled in for a taped financial appeal. I am not saying this to bash, but it is part of the story.

When we discovered an Orthodox church the Divine Liturgy was everything we were feeling we were missing. It was dignified, beautiful, and consistent. No more teeth-gritting or mental eye-rolling. Just worship for grownups. It was not something we jumped into, but a serious step based on where we were coming from and what we had found.

Then there were priests coming and going, one under a cloud of misconduct. As most people know now, the OCA went through a long and bitter period of financial and sexual scandal, which undermined my confidence in it, although our own bishop was probably as close to a hero of the piece as there was. The recurrent absence of a priest aggravated my own frustrations, since it was hard to work through in a sacramental vacuum.

Another aspect of Orthodoxy that we did not give sufficient attention to is the ethic one. Not that people were not welcoming, because they were, far more than I deserved, I am sure. But I doubt I am the only convert to feel like I was sometimes playing at being Russian because it was tacitly expected, and who doubted he would ever really fit in. People like to make fun of Orthodox converts because of their enthusiasm, but the flip side of that may have something to do with feeling like you’re just not really fitting in, and if you just try a little harder…

I have probably offended everyone by now, but I also take full responsibility for my own immaturity in some reactions and expectations.

When I had to move on account of work, suddenly I discovered a whole Catholic world that seemed more vibrant and universal than I had ever imagined. This is probably one of the most Catholic areas in the country. I practically live across the street from Our Lady of the Snows shrine. My TV flips back and forth between EWTN and the news and that 's about it. Since I live alone, I started praying the Rosary and feel much more at peace than I ever did with my prayer rope. Most of all, there are any number of churches offering worship in a way I can comfortably and profitably participate in. So some of it is “when in Rome…”

So although Orthodoxy had challenging aspects, as I am contemplating (and that is what I am doing now) returning to the faith of my youth, I certainly harbor no bitterness or reasonable disappointment toward the Orthodox Church. I think it is a wonderful home – I am just wondering if it is MY home.

So please understand that I love BOTH churches and am one of those people that believe they are separated mainly by a tragic lack of goodwill historically, not because of fundamental theological differences. (I am aware of the arguments to the contrary from both camps.). I do not want to leave the impression that I found any Orthodox people in any way lacking – other than myself at any rate. The ethnic thing is what it is and I am prepared to admit it is my problem not anyone else’s. The multiple foreign jurisdictions, however, in this country is perhaps the least attractive thing about Orthodoxy for me, though.

I hear you on the ethnicity thing – not that that should matter AT ALL if you believe the faith is true. Our local OCA community is quite diverse, even with Greeks having come in as well as the many mainstream Protestants and Episcopalians. But the joint is still very Russian culturally. VERY. It’s great. I love it. But it’s a factor.

 

[Addai]

The only issue might be the language used in liturgy. For the most part our liturgy is sung in English; at times the “Holy God, Holy Mighty” is sung in the old Slovakian (I think that’s the language), but our cantor leads and nobody is told they need to learn the Slovak.

I’m pretty sure you mean “Slavonic”. If it was old Slovak that would be cool since that is the area my father and his family hail from.

Slavonic is medieval Russian, while Slovak is western Slavic language (Which while related, I think is quite a bit different the old Russian).

 

[samcarter14]

I’m pretty sure you mean “Slavonic”. If it was old Slovak that would be cool since that is the area my father and his family hail from.

Slavonic is medieval Russian, while Slovak is western Slavic language (Which while related, I think is quite a bit different the old Russian).

You’re right, Slavonic. My error.

 

[Nicholas82]

…since I am not always the most understanding or appreciative of other types of people.

Maybe you were in the perfect place to work on that then. Unless, of course, you’d rather not try to become more understanding and appreciative of other types of people.

 

[tdgesq]

Maybe you were in the perfect place to work on that then. Unless, of course, you’d rather not try to become more understanding and appreciative of other types of people.

Your comments are unhelpful Nicholas.

To the OP, you can validly receive the sacraments from any Catholic Church regardless of rite in your current situation. That much at least I know. In the meantime, I will try to figure out for certain where you are supposed to start out. I really do doubt it is in any of the eastern rites considering your situation, but even if it is, you will be able to change rites without much of a problem.

 

[Nicholas82]

Your comments are unhelpful Nicholas.

To the OP, you can validly receive the sacraments from any Catholic Church regardless of rite in your current situation. That much at least I know. In the meantime, I will try to figure out for certain where you are supposed to start out. I really do doubt it is in any of the eastern rites considering your situation, but even if it is, you will be able to change rites without much of a problem.

I’m sorry, I just feel it’s a bit poor of an excuse to say that you’re unable to become comfortable somewhere because you have a hard time accepting and understanding people from other, slightly different cultures. That seems like the sort of thing a person might want to work on instead of just saying, “Oh well, that’ll never change, better switch Churches!” That’s all.

 

[Nicholas82]

It wasn’t like there were people constantly shoving it our faces. It was just a feeling that, due to the ethnic identity we were and always would be guests in someone else’s home. No matter how hospitable the host, one still wants his own home. It is my impression that this my be less of an issue with the Antiochians who seem to be trying a little more self- consciously to be convert- friendly. And I am aware that the new OCA Metropolitan is a convert. I believe this will be less of an issue in the future as ethnic identity faded with the passing of generations.

An undenable appeal of the Catholic Church is the multiple-ethnic face at one service. It feels less clubbish, and is good for me in particular, since I am not always the most understanding or appreciative of other types of people.

Are there any Antiochian parishes near you? I attend an Antiochian parish, the priest is second-generation Egyptian, the descendents of the founders of the parish are Lebanese, we have a good many Greeks and a few Russians in the parish, and then there’s me- German and Polish, and I’ve never felt more welcome or at home anywhere. The whole liturgy is in English except for the trisagion where it’s done once in English, once in Arabic and once in Greek… don’t “try” to be anything but yourself, if you’re not Russian you’re not, enjoy the food, buy some pierogies and just relate to people as people, not Russians or Greeks or anything else. My ethnicity has never come up except once when I first began attending a kind elderly Greek gentleman asked me is I was Greek… I said, “No, actually Polish and German, of all things!” jokingly and he smiled and welcomed me to the parish. People are people, worship is divine and ethnic food is delicious lol

 

[tdgesq]

I’m sorry, I just feel it’s a bit poor of an excuse to say that you’re unable to become comfortable somewhere because you have a hard time accepting and understanding people from other, slightly different cultures. That seems like the sort of thing a person might want to work on instead of just saying, “Oh well, that’ll never change, better switch Churches!” That’s all.

You would know his situation is considerably more complicated than that if you had read his posts. Diminishing it to your characterization is borderline insulting. And the way you are carrying on leads me to believe you aren’t sorry at all.

 

[Nicholas82]

You would know his situation is considerably more complicated than that if you had read his posts. Diminishing it to your characterization is borderline insulting. And the way you are carrying on leads me to believe you aren’t sorry at all.

Maybe the apology was more of a pleasantry than anything, since I’m not sure what I would be expected to be sorry for. Possibly my comments are not helpful for your purpose, which I believe you have, but I would leave that for the OP to decide. honestly don’t believe I diminished anything nor was I insulting. I read the OP’s posts and he seemed to be saying that the stress on ethnic identity in his parish made him uncomfortable. That could either be a real problem with that one particular parish or it could be a concieved problem that may be due to feelings of unfamiliarity with certain ways/cultures/peoples that might be overcome and result in personal growth. I was simply trying to be objective and honest. The poster asked how one might revert, and continued to wonder if things may be different under another jurisdiction, the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, where I was recieved. Let him return to the Roman Catholic Church because he believes it to be the true Church, not because he’s uncomfortable with other ethnicities or because it happens to be convienient since there’s a RC Church right near him. He can discern that and I’m not saying his reasons are no more than that, but those really aren’t good reasons to leave Orthodoxy and seem slightly superficial, and I do not mean that in a derogatory manner.

 

[tdgesq]

Maybe the apology was more of a pleasantry than anything, since I’m not sure what I would be expected to be sorry for.

. . . .

I read the OP’s posts and he seemed to be saying that the stress on ethnic identity in his parish made him uncomfortable.

The multiple foreign jurisdictions, however, in this country is perhaps the least attractive thing about Orthodoxy for me, though.

Please read his posts before commenting.

 

[Nicholas82]

. . . .

Please read his posts before commenting.

Yes, multiple overlapping jurisdictions, it’s a problem that needs to be worked on, and IF he entered the Orthodox Church because he believes it is the true Church, which I imagine or would hope he did at least at one point, that should be a minor annoyance viewed in proper perspective rather than a reason to leave the Orthodox Church… there are overlapping jurisdictions of the same faith and Church and it hasn’t been remedied yet… ok, give it time- why is a somewhat uncanonical situation in a country slightly over 200 years old, given the history and situations concerned, such an issue? Please stop telling me to read things which I already have read, since it’s rather condescending.