Orthodox Catholic Reversion

[Madaglan]

Searching for the homepage of a Greek EO church here in Miami, I found that they displayed the image of Jesus Christ as in the Divine Mercy appearance to St. Faustina, on their website. The Divine Mercy appearance and message is also accepted by the Basilian EO Fathers who have a church in New Orleans.

Sadly, everything Catholic was vehemently rejected by ROCOR - the Eucharist was being joked about, the Marian apparitions were rejected as possible demonic deceptions, saints and doctors of the Church such as St. Francis of Assisi, St. Theresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux were ridiculed for having fallen to hallucinations and possibly demonic deceptions of fake “Jesus” and “Mary”.

The reason why I believe Russian attitudes are important is obvious - the MP-ROCOR Russian Orthodox Church has more members (between 90 and 200 million according to estimates) than all the other EO Churches combined.

For me, at the end of the day, the Orthodox experience boiled down to this: conversion - NO; longing and prayers for reunion - YES. And I don’t mind, I was in fact greatly enriched by learning about such great Russian Orthodox saints, ascetics and martyrs as St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Hermann of Alaska, St. Innocent of Aleutian Islands, St. Peter the Aleut (yes, the one martyred by Jesuit Fathers in California, because he insisted he was Christian already as an Orthodox, and refused to convert to the RCC under duress), and St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco. I heard Pope JP-II spoke with respect of St. Seraphim of Sarov, and I hope many Orthodox saints will be officially canonized in the Catholic Church after the reunion.

When Cardinal Walter Kaspar visited Russia within the past year, there was talk that he planned on venerating the relics of St. Seraphim of Sarov.

 

[Timothy_Capps]

ROCOR is one of the stricter expressions of Orthodoxy. The OCA, which was granted autocephaly from Moscow to be THE American Church, is much less strict, and is, in fact, considered too modernist by some other Orthodox (keeping in mind it is relative; the OCA is still very conservative in my opinion). However, the OCA’s autocephaly is not accepted by the majority of the Orthodox churches, and it is even considered something of a rogue. Part of this may come from the suspicion that anything the MP did while the Commies were in power was tainted with suspicion.

Anyway, the OCA is probably down to 20,000 actual members in the entire country now, far less than the inflated official claims. The future does not look bright. With Putin’s neo-Tsarism seemingly being accepted by the Russian church, patriotic Americans might have reason to feel uncomfortable being aligned with a foreign national church whose strategic interests seem to be at odds with that of the United States. (The nuclear missiles of the Russian Strategic Rocket Forces that were blessed by the MP are pointed at us.)

The Antiochians seem to be the jurisdiction that “gets it” in the U.S. They have been very welcoming to evangelicals, for instance, and have aggressively (again, relatively) brought Orthodoxy to the threshold, at least, of American consciousness as something more than an ethnic club. If Orthodoxy does have a mainstream future in this country, my money is on the Antiochians.

There are many Orthodox temples that have pews. With the length of Orthodox services, it is a mercy! Others don’t, however. I have been in Greek Orthodox churches where there was an organ, while I have never seen a musical instrument in a Russian church.

There is no doubt the Orthodox church has produced many saints, Serpahim of Sarov included. There is much truth and beauty, as the Orthodox genius is in holding fast to what was received. This is something many in the Catholic Church could study with profit.

There’s an old joke, told by Orthodox, that an Orthodox Christian was shipwrecked on an island all by himself. When he was found years later, rescuers were surprised to find he had built two churches. When they asked him about it, he shrugged and said: “This is the church I go to. That’s the church I DON’T go to.”

This is the problem for me in a nutshell.

 

[Timothy_Capps]

With Putin’s neo-Tsarism seemingly being accepted by the Russian church, patriotic Americans might have reason to fetel uncomfortable being aligned with a foreign national church whose strategic interests seem to be at odds with that of the United States. (The nuclear missiles of the Russian Strategic Rocket Forces that were blessed by the MP are pointed at us.)

That is unfortunately more Know-Nothing-ish than I intended and I don’t want to impugn the patiotism of American Orthodox (nor do I have any reason to do so). My intended point was how a national church can become captive to a government’s strategic fears and aspirations with jarring consequences.

 

[Aramis]

Locally, the traffic to/from the RO Cathedral is up. I drive past it en route to St. Nick’s… Can’t speak to numbers inside, since St. Nick (ByzCMCoP) and St. Innocent (OCA) both have DL at the same time.

However, I’m seeing more ROOB’s than before in the Anchorage area.

Now, I know there is a ROCOR parish, too… but their “pastor” is a deacon.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Timothy Capps:

ROCOR is one of the stricter expressions of Orthodoxy. The OCA, which was granted autocephaly from Moscow to be THE American Church, is much less strict, and is, in fact, considered too modernist by some other Orthodox (keeping in mind it is relative; the OCA is still very conservative in my opinion). However, the OCA’s autocephaly is not accepted by the majority of the Orthodox churches, and it is even considered something of a rogue.

Overall, I’d agree with this description. I go to an OCA church right now, but formerly I went to a church under the omiphorion of the Greeks, where the OCA weren’t talked too much about. But besides this, the OCA priests and lay people have fairly good relationships (in my area at least) with other Orthodox priests and lay people.

Part of this may come from the suspicion that anything the MP did while the Commies were in power was tainted with suspicion.

Anyway, the OCA is probably down to 20,000 actual members in the entire country now, far less than the inflated official claims.

The numbers are hard to say for sure. The 20,000 figure you provide seems the bottom lowest.

The future does not look bright. With Putin’s neo-Tsarism seemingly being accepted by the Russian church, patriotic Americans might have reason to feel uncomfortable being aligned with a foreign national church whose strategic interests seem to be at odds with that of the United States. (The nuclear missiles of the Russian Strategic Rocket Forces that were blessed by the MP are pointed at us.)

Well, if they’re blessed, all the better for our eternal salvation.

The Antiochians seem to be the jurisdiction that “gets it” in the U.S. They have been very welcoming to evangelicals, for instance, and have aggressively (again, relatively) brought Orthodoxy to the threshold, at least, of American consciousness as something more than an ethnic club. If Orthodoxy does have a mainstream future in this country, my money is on the Antiochians.

I don’t have extensive experience with the OCA, but the OCA parishes I have visited have been very open to me. The parish I now attend is a mission parish and most members are former evangelical Christians. It may not be well known, but the newly elected Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA is a convert from Protestantism. Bishop Tikhon, also of the OCA, is a convert from Episcopalianism. The Antiochians do a fine job as well. The two AOA parishes I attended were both mostly converts–the one being an entire evangelical church converting to Orthodoxy and becoming Western Rite Orthodox.

There are many Orthodox temples that have pews. With the length of Orthodox services, it is a mercy! Others don’t, however. I have been in Greek Orthodox churches where there was an organ, while I have never seen a musical instrument in a Russian church.

True.

There is no doubt the Orthodox church has produced many saints, Serpahim of Sarov included. There is much truth and beauty, as the Orthodox genius is in holding fast to what was received. This is something many in the Catholic Church could study with profit.

Yes.

There’s an old joke, told by Orthodox, that an Orthodox Christian was shipwrecked on an island all by himself. When he was found years later, rescuers were surprised to find he had built two churches. When they asked him about it, he shrugged and said: “This is the church I go to. That’s the church I DON’T go to.”

This is the problem for me in a nutshell.

Could you explain what you mean by this?

 

[mardukm]

Well if they’re blessed, all the better for our eternal salvation.
Gotta love your sense of humor!

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Addai]

Tim I’m researching the story about the Met blessing the missiles. So far it looks like they are anti-aircraft missiles and not nuclear ballistic missiles. Since SAMs are defensive weapons used to shoot down planes intruding in ones air space, the missile blessing looks less sinister then what you might imagine.

examples

speroforum.com/site/print.asp?idarticle=10640

[issues(name removed by moderator)Erspective.com is for sale | HugeDomains](http://www.issues(name removed by moderator)Erspective.com is for sale | HugeDomains)

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Addai,

Tim I’m researching the story about the Met blessing the missiles. So far it looks like they are anti-aircraft missiles and not nuclear ballistic missiles. Since SAMs are defensive weapons used to shoot down planes intruding in ones air space, the missile blessing looks less sinister then what you might imagine.

I believe brother Tim was referring to this:

“I congratulate you on this memorable anniversary,” he read from the Patriarch’s message, “and I raise prayers to God and to the venerable Serafim of Sarov that the nuclear weapons created by you and entrusted to you will always be in God’s hands, and will only be weapons of deterrence and retaliation.”

The full story can be found here:
weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2007/09/the_holy_bomb.asp

Sounds pretty scary.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Timothy_Capps]

Strategic Rocket Forces are indeed the guys with the nukes. I didn’t cite this because I believe we have to worry about the Orthodox Bomb, nor in a Pythonesque “Holy Hand Grenade” way, but as a striking example of how the mindset of a national church is different from what most Americans – including converts who may initially drawn by the beautiful liturgy – understand a church to be.

Obviously, it is encouraging to see the Russian Orthodox Church re-emerge as a cultural force in that country. I hope it leads to a spiritual awakening and we see a prosperous, happy and growing – not precipitously declining – Russian people. When I was growing up, I would never have imagined the Soviet Union falling and a church rising on the very spot where Nicholas II and his family bore their passion at the hands of the Communists.

Anyway, the problem is not that Russia has a Russian Church, but that America has a Russian Church, and a Greek Church, and a Serbian Church, and an Antiochian Church, etc. I am not saying any of these churches are bad in themselves. I am saying that their separate existence as national or ethnic churches in this country is a stumbling block. (Since I was asked, I gave my honest answer. Perhaps I have done so at greater length than anyone enjoys, but I felt defensive after my shorthand version was handed back to me as an example of my shallowness.)

Along these lines is the tendency for some Orthodox to define Orthodoxy by reference to someone else: those people use the wrong calendar, Greeks are the ones with organs in their churches, we don’t have pews, etc. That was the point of the joke. None of the problems with Orthodoxy I’ve cited should come as a surprise to any Orthodox. Another poster pointed out that this country is only 200 years old, and it may take time to resolve this problem. I agree with that, especially since the strength of Orthodoxy is the care with which it confronts the possibility of change.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
Quote:
There’s an old joke, told by Orthodox, that an Orthodox Christian was shipwrecked on an island all by himself. When he was found years later, rescuers were surprised to find he had built two churches. When they asked him about it, he shrugged and said: “This is the church I go to. That’s the church I DON’T go to.”

This is the problem for me in a nutshell.
Could you explain what you mean by this?**

**You’d have to be Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic to get it.

The version I heard was told by a Ukrainian Catholic priest, only there weere 3 churches: the old calendar church, the new calendar church, and the one he wouldn’t be caught dead in.**

 

[Addai]

Dear brother Addai,

I believe brother Tim was referring to this:

“I congratulate you on this memorable anniversary,” he read from the Patriarch’s message, “and I raise prayers to God and to the venerable Serafim of Sarov that the nuclear weapons created by you and entrusted to you will always be in God’s hands, and will only be weapons of deterrence and retaliation.”

The full story can be found here:
weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2007/09/the_holy_bomb.asp

Sounds pretty scary.

Blessings,
Marduk

It sounds like “Beneath the Planet of the Apes”

youtube.com/watch?v=9M_GXymd7KM

 

[mardukm]

It sounds like “Beneath the Planet of the Apes”

youtube.com/watch?v=9M_GXymd7KM

I just watched that over the Thanksgiving holiday (on cable). I’m a big sci-fi fan. The theological understones of the Planet of the Apes series makes for a good discussion starter in catechetical classes (in my crazy opinion ).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Timothy,

especially since the strength of Orthodoxy is the care with which it confronts the possibility of change.

I would really appreciate your comments/corrections on my post here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4593583&postcount=249

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Timothy_Capps]

Hi, Marduk. I’m concentrating on my RC catechism at the moment and do not wish to enter into a controversy on another thread. I’m not sure about some of your contentions, such as Confirmation replacing Baptism. Also the EO church missed out on a lot of intellectual currents in the West, obviously, so some differences may be vocabulary and emphasis. I never understood the Essence / Energies stuff very well anyway, but the same could be said about a lot of Latin theology, too.

I was told you pretty much get three tries to find the right spouse in the Orthodox church, as a concession to human weakness. Having been happily married for 32 years I’m not in a position to judge people who have not been so blessed (with a patient wife) but I agree that divorce and remarriage is far from the ideal.

The specific practices of the Prayer of the Heart (posture, breathing) are not encouraged for the laity, and that’s probably wise. Personally, I find the Rosary much more accessible and rewarding than the prayer rope. In fact, Our Lady pretty much dragged me back into the Church by the Rosary, which I used to be devoted to many years ago. (I don’t think she ever forgets that.) When I finally made the decision to go to confession to a Catholic priest, it was on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, something I didn’t know at the time.

As a follow-on to the previous comments about the missile blessing, my son sent me an article dated today’s date that Stalin is leading a Russian poll for most popular historical figure, and an Orthodox priest was forced to take an icon of him out of his temple!

But in Russian religious tradition, Moscow is the “Third Rome,” which is seen in an imperial sense. National power is a means for the Orthodox church to fulfill its mission of re-evangelizing the world. To many Russians today, I guess Stalin is seen as the strong leader who beat the Nazi invaders and ushered in the era of the Soviet Superpower. I just think they missed the fact that the First Rome never quite disappeared

 

[Timothy_Capps]

UPDATE: Stalin only third most popular in Russia.

13th century prince Alexander Nevsky, who defeated German invaders, followed by Pyotr Stolypin.

I believe Alexander Nevsky is considered a saint. (There’s a classic movie with a famous scene of the German Catholic Knights crashing through the ice during the climactic battle.) Stolypin was Tsar Nicholas II’s prime minister, who assassinated at the opera by a radical in front of the royal family.

Interesting picks. I’m glad Uncle Joe didn’t win or place.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Timothy,

Hi, Marduk. I’m concentrating on my RC catechism at the moment and do not wish to enter into a controversy on another thread. I’m not sure about some of your contentions, such as Confirmation replacing Baptism.

I wasn’t interested in debate either. I just wanted to know your point of view.

Regarding Confirmation replacing Baptism, I was a bit too general, I was referring to the practice of the EO permitting non-EO to come to EO’xy only by Chrismation, instead of Baptism - with Catholics for example. Now, the EOC officially does not consider Catholic Baptism to be valid, and I’ve specifically heard and read of EO priests say that the grace of chrismation will make up for any grace lacking in the Baptism. I know the OO also only practice Chrismation for the most part (for Catholics), but that is because we believe that Catholic baptism IS valid. OO don’t seek to replace the grace of Baptism with Confirmation as the EO do.

I don’t understand the EO practice or belief behind the practice, I must admit. I am inclined to believe it is a development of doctrine as the practice and belief is absent in the early Church - whether legitimate or not I cannot say. I’ve read EO appeal to St. Basil for justification - but that is for another thread.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Timothy_Capps]

When I came into the OCA from the Catholic Church, it was never suggested that our baptism was not valid. Come to think of it, I’m not sure why chrismation would have been necessary, since I had been confirmed. Annointing with oil is also done as part of the yearly cycle, so maybe it was just a special sacrament to strengthen one in the Spirit.

Here’s a site I found that was valuable in educating me on the Orthodox-Catholic differences and similarities:

davidmacd.com/catholic/orthodox/index.htm

What do you think about this one, Marduk?

 

[Aramis]

When I came into the OCA from the Catholic Church, it was never suggested that our baptism was not valid. Come to think of it, I’m not sure why chrismation would have been necessary, since I had been confirmed.

Because the OCA accepts the Conciliar canons that trinitarian baptism can be done validly by ANYONE, they need not even be christian, who intends to do so and does so in accordance with the formula Christ instituted. No such provision exists for confirmation/chrismation, and the OCA officially do not “know” if Catholic bishops are valid.

 

[Diak]

Tim, not all Orthodox churches are consistent with treatment of Catholics. I know of two Ukrainian Orthodox friends who were received without chrismation but only by confession to a priest, reciting the Creed, and later reception of Holy Communion. Neither had ever been Ukrainian Orthodox before and were not re-chrismated.

Likewise I have been the witness for several Orthodox coming into the UGCC; it was also done with confession, reciting the Creed and Holy Communion.

 

[mardukm]

Tim, not all Orthodox churches are consistent with treatment of Catholics. I know of two Ukrainian Orthodox friends who were received without chrismation but only by confession to a priest, reciting the Creed, and later reception of Holy Communion. Neither had ever been Ukrainian Orthodox before and were not re-chrismated.

Likewise I have been the witness for several Orthodox coming into the UGCC; it was also done with confession, reciting the Creed and Holy Communion.

I came into Catholic communion only by Confession and Holy Communion.

Blessings,
Marduk