Orthodox & Catholics: What Still Divides Us?

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  1. papal infallibility
  2. papal supremacy
  3. Atonement views
  4. Original Sin views
  5. Leavened or Unleavened Bread
  6. Filioque
  7. Beards:p
 
=JohnnyReb;7769679]I will openly admit that if Catholicism and Orthodoxy reunited, that would be a great witness to Protestantism, and would probably be enough to get me to return to this Apostolic church.
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Me too. It would be undeniable evidence of the Holy Spirit moving in the Church.

Jon
 
Easter Vacation (oops, uh, better be politically correct-Spring Break) here too, Jon! We’re off through next Monday then we return Thursday.

Honestly I find the Orthodox views on the Atonement more troubling personally than the filioque!
JonNC said:
Hi gurney,
I’m on spring break this week. :extrahappy:

Other than 1, 2, and 6, are any of the rest necessarily Church-dividing?

Jon
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Hi Mickey! Haven’t seen you in a while, bro!

Goodness, do you really want me to go into my beliefs in the Atonement and why I don’t agree with Orthodoxy on their views again? Everyone knows my opinion on this by now!! :p:blush:
Mickey said:
Explain.
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Hi Mickey! Haven’t seen you in a while, bro!

Goodness, do you really want me to go into my beliefs in the Atonement and why I don’t agree with Orthodoxy on their views again? Everyone knows my opinion on this by now!! :p:blush:
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Do you subscribe to the Anselmian version of John 3:16 that josephdaniel has in his signature?

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Do you seriously think that that insulting and raunchy description of Anselm’s approach that was in Brother JosephDaniel’s signature is fair? You spoke of “inflammatory” on the other thread. That signature is the epitome of insulting and inflammatory…

I am an Anselmian, Andrew. You know that. I’ve said as much a zillion times in here, brother. I make no apologies for it.
Harpazo said:
Do you subscribe to the Anselmian version of John 3:16 that josephdaniel has in his signature?

In Christ,
Andrew
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Do you seriously think that that insulting and raunchy description of Anselm’s approach that was in Brother JosephDaniel’s signature is fair? You spoke of “inflammatory” on the other thread. That signature is the epitome of insulting and inflammatory…

I am an Anselmian, Andrew. You know that. I’ve said as much a zillion times in here, brother. I make no apologies for it.
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I honestly had no idea you were “Anselmian” (I truly did not know that was a subcategory of Catholic credence). I have heard vague mentionings in different threads for a while during your Anglican days and then after your conversion to Rome about the atonement being a hang up for you, but I must not have been paying attention close enough. Why don’t we start a thread on that so we don’t diverge this topic so much? 👍

In Christ,
Andrew
 
I did start a thread on it, Andrew, some time back. What we got was Orthodox calling me a fan of God being a child-abuser and polemical stuff that got us nowhere. It wasn’t very fruitful and it got a touch nasty. Anna Scott and I were all over it. I didn’t find the Orthodox arguments compelling. At one time I was considering Orthodoxy, no joke. I was considering it despite the nearest churches (Greek and Serbian) being an hour north of here in Fresno (big pain to drive) but when I learned about their views on the Atonement and have seen how many Orthodox are even turned-off by the Stations of the Cross and also the idea that everyone is invalid except Orthodoxy, I was too open-minded for it. Honestly even right now I’m probably better for Anglicanism than Catholicism. But that being said, I buy the Latin views on the Atonement far more than Christus Victor and giving Satan ransom payments and the other views, etc…

Opinions on the Atonement thread ranged from “what does it matter?” to the “child abuse” stuff that one poster kept on bringing up to “I believe in them all” etc…
Harpazo said:
I honestly had no idea you were “Anselmian” (I truly did not know that was a subcategory of Catholic credence). I have heard vague mentionings in different threads for a while during your Anglican days and then after your conversion to Rome about the atonement being a hang up for you, but I must not have been paying attention close enough. Why don’t we start a thread on that so we don’t diverge this topic so much? 👍

In Christ,
Andrew
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Randy_Carson said:
Good stuff. Thanks.

Prayer rule? Explain, please.
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A prayer rule is a set rule of prayer that a person does daily that they receive from their spiritual father or one that they take on with the blessing of their spiritual father. Generally this is their parish priest, but it can be a monk, bishop, etc. Usually it is the Morning and Evening prayers, but practices can vary. In the familial setting, they are prayed with the whole family present in front of the icon corner as the household is the ‘little church.’ Some will pray the Hours, but generally monasteries have an easier time doing that than those of us in the world.

This, I would consider to fall under the umbrella of ascesis (along with the fasting periods of the year) that has sadly been largely lost in the Western churches, which we Orthodox would see as symptomatic of a different mindset. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
Mindsets and approaches to the one Faith have differed in the East, the West and the Orient throughout the entire history of the Church, even during the time of union. What matters is not that we agree in our mindset, approach and emphasis, what matters is that we agree in essence, the essentials of our Faith. Whether or not Catholics and Orthodox do agree is not a matter for this poor sinner to concern himself with (although personally I believe we do agree in essentials; hence I’m an Eastern Catholic and not an Eastern Orthodox).

Incidentally, the idea of the development of doctrine isn’t completely rejected among the Orthodox. I’ve had Orthodox friends and aquaintances affirm the development of doctrine, when properly understood.
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St. Paul disagrees:
“I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.” 1 Cor. 1:10
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There have always been different rites, prayers, traditions, etc. but the mindset was the same until it began to diverge in the West before the schism and then afterwards (in a big way!). Until Rome returns to the Apostolic phronema it had before the schism, Orthodoxy will not be able to welcome RCs to the Chalice.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
  1. papal infallibility
  2. papal supremacy
  3. Atonement views
  4. Original Sin views
  5. Leavened or Unleavened Bread
  6. Filioque
  7. Beards:p
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I would say 1,2 maybe 3 but I am not fully up on the Orthodox view on Atonement,
as for the rest I have seen or read they are not issues. Eastern Catholic leavened bread is accepted already and the Filioque was said not to be a stumbling block once the Catholic views was fully explained to the Orthodox leaders (think it was the Greek Patriarch). I actually think #2 is not that big of a problem if that is explained completely as the Pope does not run an area as most people seem to think he does. He is more the conscience of the church and tries to correct the bishops who are not guiding their people well. I have seen this often in the U.S. because if the Pope ran it completely I know of several bishop that would be gone (and maybe should be gone).
So #1 and maybe 3.
 
You’re right in that many of my items already exist in Byzantine Catholic circles, etc. But I wonder if most Orthodox would play ball with what you said about the papacy? My gut says no way…
Tomb54 said:
I would say 1,2 maybe 3 but I am not fully up on the Orthodox view on Atonement,
as for the rest I have seen or read they are not issues. Eastern Catholic leavened bread is accepted already and the Filioque was said not to be a stumbling block once the Catholic views was fully explained to the Orthodox leaders (think it was the Greek Patriarch). I actually think #2 is not that big of a problem if that is explained completely as the Pope does not run an area as most people seem to think he does. He is more the conscience of the church and tries to correct the bishops who are not guiding their people well. I have seen this often in the U.S. because if the Pope ran it completely I know of several bishop that would be gone (and maybe should be gone).
So #1 and maybe 3.
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
You’re right in that many of my items already exist in Byzantine Catholic circles, etc. But I wonder if most Orthodox would play ball with what you said about the papacy? My gut says no way…
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Yes I agree most would not but tell me as an Eastern Rite if you did not know the Pope as the head of the Church would you see much interfernce in your daily Christian life? I see him more a person in the background working for unity and as a guide for the faithful, very seldom do I ever see the Pope using the strong hand of a leader forcing anything but more often the hand of a guide or servant to help.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Everyone knows my opinion on this by now!!
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I do not know your opinion. But if it is Anselmian, then we will surely be at odds. 😃

I am not a big fan of the juridical writing of Anselm.

But I suppose it is too big to start that discussion during Holy Week–perhaps after Holy Pascha. 🙂

Peace.
 
StevieD said:
I recommend this link to anyone interested in Orthodoxy, its internal problems and a contrast with Catholicism.
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Oh brother. This is exactly what Andrew was talking about when he said these discussions disintegrate fast. Do you know how many websites there are that start with, “Why I am not Roman Catholic” ?

I do not think Scott wants this thread to turn into a “My Church is better than your Church” thread.😦
 
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