Orthodox catholics

[TEPO]

But see, I don’t think it comes from any sort of disdain. The Orthodox are naturally more conscious of the communal aspect of the Eucharist. I would not feel comfortable communing in a Catholic Church or Oriental Orthodox Church without first receiving the approval of my own bishop and then of the bishop who would be allowing me to commune, and I suspect that most of my fellow Orthodox posters would feel the same way. And if either denied me such permission, I would not feel dejected, but know only that either my bishop did not think that it would be beneficial for my salvation, or that the other bishop did not believe that it would be beneficial either for my salvation or for the salvation of his flock.

Hogwash!

 

[Cavaradossi]

We take Peters injunction to discern the Body of Christ very seriously. I do believe Peter and Paul were together on this…? Sooo, why aren’t we?

Because you do not seem to share our understanding that that injunction is in the context of unity within the eucharistic community. You to interpret that passage to mean discerning that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ in a literal sense, while we would interpret discerning the Body of Christ as meaning not that one must discern that the Eucharist is the literal flesh and blood of Christ (although we believe this), but that one must discern that the Eucharist is a manifestation of the unity of community of believers, and be of this same unity of faith before communing.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Hogwash!

You are free to have that opinion, but I think I would know better than you whether I would feel comfortable communing in a church not in communion with mine without the permission of the bishop of that church. However, since it is clear that your responses are becoming increasingly hostile, I think we should cease our correspondence here, before things become heated.

 

[TEPO]

Because you do not seem to share our understanding that that injunction is in the context of unity within the eucharistic community. You to interpret that passage to mean discerning that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ in a literal sense, while we would interpret discerning the Body of Christ as meaning not that one must discern that the Eucharist is the literal flesh and blood of Christ (although we believe this), but that one must discern that the Eucharist is a manifestation of the unity of community of believers, and be of this same unity of faith before communing.

Is this really true…? The Orthodox don’t really believe in transubstantiation? If that’s true then, I really don’t I guess.

 

[TEPO]

You are free to have that opinion, but I think I would know better than you whether I would feel comfortable communing in a church not in communion with mine without the permission of the bishop of that church. However, since it is clear that your responses are becoming increasingly hostile, I think we should cease our correspondence here, before things become heated.

I just didn’t understand what you meant by communal. I thought you were trying to say that the Orthodox were naturally more conscious than Catholics of what Communion actually is… But that was when I assumed that we believed it was the same thing.

I thought you were trying to say we took it too lightly, therefore we were unworthy. That would have been a slur. But I guess it wasn’t.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Is this really true…? The Orthodox don’t really believe in transubstantiation? If that’s true then, I really don’t I guess.

No, I meant just the opposite. My meaning was that even though we believe that the Eucharist is literally the Body and Blood of Christ, we do not just interpret Paul’s injunction in 1 Corinthians 11 to mean discerning that fact. We would interpret it to have the meaning of discerning the unity of the believers as the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[TEPO]

Oh I get it now it’s both. Transubstantiation and communal. And Catholics think its transubstantiation and personal. Hmmm.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I just didn’t understand what you meant by communal. I thought you were trying to say that the Orthodox were naturally more conscious than Catholics of what Communion actually is… But that was when I assumed that we believed it was the same thing.

I thought you were trying to say we took it too lightly, therefore we were unworthy. That would have been a slur. But I guess it wasn’t.

I see. Apologies for the misunderstanding. What I meant to say was not that Catholics are somehow personally unworthy of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, God forbid! That would indeed be a terrible insult. I meant to say that we (Orthodox) should not commune in Catholic Churches and vice-versa, without the approval of the local bishop (that is, out of economy), because we do not yet share unity in faith.

 

[lssanjose]

Because Eastern Catholics, more or less, share the same heritage, as Eastern Orthodox, there’s a clause in the Liturgical Book stating the very thing cavaradossi brings up. Therein, it says, “those who aren’t properly disposed, or not in communion with the universal church, may not be permitted to partake in communion.” It’s the same deal. I feel as cavaradossi would, especially since I’ve been to a number of Orthodox services, and it wouldn’t be right of me to insist I partake in the mystical supper, due to my not being in communion with them.

 

[TEPO]

Because Eastern Catholics, more or less, share the same heritage, as Eastern Orthodox, there’s a clause in the Liturgical Book stating the very thing cavaradossi brings up. Therein, it says, “those who aren’t properly disposed, or not in communion with the universal church, may not be permitted to partake in communion.” It’s the same deal. I feel as cavaradossi would, especially since I’ve been to a number of Orthodox services, and it wouldn’t be right of me to insist I partake in the mystical supper, due to my not being in communion with them.

It seems to me like Catholics commune on a global scale while the Orthodox commune on a parish level. Is this right?

 

[Marybeloved]

I answered the point about not causing scandal to Orthodox. You never answered it (I invite you to go back and look through what I posted if you don’t remember it). Just because no one is aware of it to get offended by it, doesn’t make it alright.

Once again it is about respect, something you clearly don’t have for us.

Believe what you want about it. I certainly cant stop you. Its not about you anyway. And as for its being wrong, you just stated it was wrong and I disagreed. You used wild analogies that I did not agree with, its not like you established anything. I see nothing wrong with it apart from a clear act of disobedience. There’s just nothing damning about a Catholic receiving in grave circumstances without lying apart from disobedience just because I’m Catholic.

 

[lssanjose]

It seems to me like Catholics commune on a global scale while the Orthodox commune on a parish level.

I wouldn’t go that far, in my mind, to say this. They take the issue of being in communion with another entity, very seriously. Although, I’ve only heard of certain instances where churches who were apparently out of communion with each other, still communing with each other. Put it this way: I was told by an Orthodox friend of mine, if I was to go into Orthodoxy, I’d get a full chrismation, and not a partial one. I think he only got the partial one, despite being lutheran. I’d have to double check with him. I did have another friend at the Orthodox parish, who recently moved to Orthodoxy say she, herself, received a full chrismation (I think, and caravadossi, and other Orthodox brethren can correct me) because of being a schismatic.

 

[TEPO]

I wouldn’t go that far, in my mind, to say this. They take the issue of being in communion with another entity, very seriously. Although, I’ve only heard of certain instances where churches who were apparently out of communion with each other, still communing with each other. Put it this way: I was told by an Orthodox friend of mine, if I was to go into Orthodoxy, I’d get a full chrismation, and not a partial one. I think he only got the partial one, despite being lutheran. I’d have to double check with him. I did have another friend at the Orthodox parish, who recently moved to Orthodoxy say she, herself, received a full chrismation (I think, and caravadossi, and other Orthodox brethren can correct me) because of being a schismatic.

I don’t really know what you mean. Are you saying a full body Chrismation?

 

[Cavaradossi]

It seems to me like Catholics commune on a global scale while the Orthodox commune on a parish level. Is this right?

On a diocesan level. No eucharistic community is complete without a bishop. The catholic Church, in Orthodox thought, is made manifest in the presence of the bishop and his people, hence the saying that ‘where the bishop is, there is the Church.’ The bishops establish communion with each other in synods, each with a metropolitan at the head, and these synods establish communion with others, forming a universal or global Church. Now to commune with in any community under any bishop within this framework, I would not need his permission, by virtue of his communion with my bishop (thus, if I were to go to Moscow, I would not need the permission of Patriarch Kirill to commune, because he is already visibly in communion with my own bishop, Metropolitan Isaiah). Needing permission only applies to those who exist outside of this framework, like the Catholics, the Oriental Orthodox, etc… So for example, were I traveling to a city in Texas where there is no Orthodox Church (let’s say Llano, though, I don’t know if there is or is not one in Llano, or even if there is a Catholic parish there). Before communing at a local Roman Catholic Church, I’d have to get the permission if my own bishop, Metropolitan Isaiah, and of whoever is the bishop of the area around Llano, Tx.

 

[lssanjose]

I don’t really know what you mean. Are you saying a full body Chrismation?

Yeah: I think, he said head, arms, and maybe other places, too.

 

[Rawb]

There’s just nothing damning about a Catholic receiving in grave circumstances without lying apart from disobedience just because I’m Catholic.

Other possibilities (and it is unreasonable to assume that one is free from all of these passions and being “merely disobedient” (which is the worst sin of all, really. It’s the sin that guided Lucifer) so feel free to examine yourself and realize which of these apply to your motives)

1. Pride: “I believe I have a right to their communion whether or not they say I do” “I will receive if I want to.” “My church says I can and so even as a guest in other’s home I will do as I see fit.” “I am Roman Catholic and thus I can do as I see fit.”
2. Being uncharitable: “I am here as a guest but I will do what is gravely insulting from their point of view because I don’t care about their point of view.” “I’ve been asked not to do something, but I will do it anyway because I want to.”
3. Sloth: “There are proper channels to request this sort of thing but I’m too lazy to seek them out.”
4. Lack of Humility: “I know better than the Spiritual Fathers, Bishops, Saints and laity of the Orthodox Church.” “Rather than follow a course which will teach me humility I will do what will make me stand out, what will make me a cause of scandal, and I do not care.”
5. Greed: “I have a right to what I want because I want it” “I want it now and do not want to wait.”
6. Jealousy: “I am told that I can not have this thing, therefor I want it, and I will prove a point by taking it.”
7. Rejection of the Path Christ would take: “Christ would be humble, submit to a validly ordained priest and bishop who have refused me, but I am going to do this anyway.”

and I could go on and on and on. Don’t Roman Catholics still preach “Spiritual Communions?” Say you were in a grave circumstance, say you were about to die without any availability for Viaticum. Why would you request Communion from an Orthodox priest and willingly withhold that you are not Orthodox? If you ask and he says no, isn’t it better entering the Kingdom of God fully honest? What’s more likely, in the case of death, he’ll say yes and there’s no cause for concern anyway. Why not, if not about to die, not just receive a “Spiritual Communion” and be the humble servant that Christ modeled for us? I do not understand why a Roman Catholic would be so insistent that they had the right to another communion’s Communion. The arrogance is astounding and rather sickening. Is this not seen as a dark sin on one’s soul? If I felt this way about someone else’s communion I’d go to Confession for it, without even having actually taken their communion. It’s so anti-Christ, such an attitude should be ripped from our souls and not given any foothold.

 

[Marybeloved]

Oh you really need to calm yourself down, you’ll give yourself a stroke. This is a purely theoretical discussion of an imagined scenario that would never even happen in real life. I already said I had no plans of going into your church for communion considering just how unlikely the situation would be if it were true (It’s not, as Vico already showed, at least for Catholics). You need to ask yourself why you’re getting so upset over an imaginary situation that’s not even true in any real situation. You want me to believe in the threats of damnation that have been communicated here- You’re free to believe it all you want though I don’t owe you an assent of faith. And what you’re afraid of is not even going to happen (not by me at least), so calm down.

 

[The_Idiot]

Oh you really need to calm yourself down, you’ll give yourself a stroke. This is a purely theoretical discussion of an imagined scenario that would never even happen in real life. I already said I had no plans of going into your church for communion considering just how unlikely the situation would be if it were true (It’s not, as Vico already showed, at least for Catholics). You need to ask yourself why you’re getting so upset over an imaginary situation that’s not even true in any real situation. You want me to believe in the threats of damnation that have been communicated here- You’re free to believe it all you want though I don’t owe you an assent of faith. And what you’re afraid of is not even going to happen (not by me at least), so calm down.

Dear Marybeloved

This thread was perfectly OK - no-one got heated until you came in with your first post .

Your suggestion that it was perfectly OK to attempt to deceive someone but just going forward to approach the Chalice or ask for Confession was what threw us into disarray.

Now you want us to believe that you reckoned it was an imaginary situation !!

 

[Marybeloved]

Dear Marybeloved

This thread was perfectly OK - no-one got heated until you came in with your first post .

Your suggestion that it was perfectly OK to attempt to deceive someone but just going forward to approach the Chalice or ask for Confession was what threw us into disarray.

Now you want us to believe that you reckoned it was an imaginary situation !!

I said it right in my FIRST POST! I said it was purely hypothetical as it was so unlikely. anyway.

 

[Marybeloved]

@Idiot, Please look at my post especially the last line before you accuse me of changing what Ive said in this thread

I also think that if I had no other choice and they did not ask about my church or specifically state that no Orthodox should come up for reception, I would take communion or penance, if it was possible to do it anonymously. I certainly would waste no precious seconds fretting over “damning my soul” for it, unless I approached the Lord with unrepented mortal sin or without reverance; Plus the Orthodox wouldn’t know it and so wouldn’t have to be offended or scandalized by my receiption. Only the Lord and I would know and I don’t see him being offended by my receiving him just because some people would, especially if no one is aware of it or harmed by it in any way. While they may believe they’re protecting the Lord from me, I don’t -so if I had no other choice and I could do it without scandalizing anyone or having to lie, I would. But it’s highly unlikely that I wouldn’t be able to find Catholic options or that I’d be able to do it anonymously so it’s all purely hypothetical anyway