Orthodox catholics

[TEPO]

I never knew you guys felt that way.

 

[TEPO]

…and even after that you still have the Pope’s back… Now that’s some strong faith. That’s extremely respectable in my opinion, in fact -I have a whole newfound respect for your Churches now.

I swear I say this in complete honesty and truth!

 

[Marybeloved]

I think that depends. Earlier I mentioned something that happened several years ago,

Now, even though I’m not keen on that approach, I can’t fault the Anglicans in question with respect to honesty. After all, Fr X pretty much said If you’re Anglican and you want to receive communion, then don’t tell me that you’re Anglican.
But then, finding an Orthodox priest who shares Fr X’s approach would be quite difficult – even more difficult, I would assume, then finding an Orthodox priest who wouldn’t ask whether you’re Orthodox or not.

Well if they asked then one would have to lie or not approach so the picture you present wouldn’t even fit in the scenario I spoke of.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Yes, I agree that there’s a major difference. The problem is hearing someone say “We’re the same.” and assuming that they mean “We have the same liturgy, theology, spirituality, beliefs, prayers, bingo, etc.” (Although, in retrospect, maybe I should have said “literalistic” rather than “nitpicking”.)

Ah, understood. I see your point now and agree.

Yes, we do insult them -but then again our Church is working on that too…

Wow, I disagree completely. I really don’t think our policy on reception of the Holy Eucharist insults them.

But hey, at least you’re consistent…

There’s a misunderstanding here. Catholics would be refused communion in an Orthodox Church NOT for the reason that we are not “in Grace,” but simply because we don’t share the same dogmatic Faith. The Catholic Church does not admit Orthodox to communion either who don’t believe they share that dogmatic Faith with us. There’s a little premise in the allowance of a non-Catholic apostolic Christian to receive the Catholic Eucharist that perhaps you don’t seem to fully understand or appreciate. Canon law states that the non-Catholic apostolic Christian must him/herself request the Catholic Eucharist. That indicates (to me at least) that such a person actually believes there is something true about the Catholic Faith that other apostolic Christians might not accept. I have met non-Catholic apostolic Christians (Orthodox and otherwise) who don’t really understand what the schism is about, have a very simple Faith and don’t really find anything wrong with the Catholic Faith. It is such as these who will actually approach the Catholic Eucharist if appropriate circumstances permit them, and it is FOR such as these that the Canons make allowance to receive the Catholic Eucharist. I am 99.9999999% sure that a non-Catholic apostolic Christian who has a different attitude about the Catholic Faith will NEVER ask to approach the Catholic Eucharist, and so the Canon does not and cannot apply to them.

Brilliantly explained, Marduk, and interestingly enough, I think this explanation of yours is the implicit answer to the question often posed to us by Orthodox: “Why are we allowed to receive Holy Communion in your church if we want, when a Catholic who rejects what we reject - the papal dogmas - should not be receiving?”

Your point revealed the answer quite succinctly - the Catholic Church essentially believes that we share the same faith as the Orthodox, and if any individual Orthodox believer requests the Catholic Eucharist, (s)he ostensibly agrees, therefore can receive our Sacraments.

If (s)he is convinced that our faith is heterodox, (s)he won’t be asking for the Eucharist from us in the first place.

So is the faith of the Eastern and Western parts of the Roman Catholic Church exactly the same to a “T”…?

Since Marduk was referring to our dogmatic faith, the answer to your question is yes. Yes, TEPO, all Catholics do share the same faith.

The matter would be entirely different if Marduk had been referring to our theology, spirituality, liturgy, beliefs, traditions, etc. Those pretty obviously differ.

But he was referring to the orthodox dogmatic Faith that we share.

Anyway, in TEPO’s defense, guys, the term “Roman Catholic Church” most often denotes, in colloquial use today, the whole Catholic Church rather than the Latin Church.

I know, I know: it’s obnoxious that it’s true, but that’s how the world uses the term. That’s also the preferred term, I’ve noticed, from Eastern Orthodox Christians online (obviously they don’t want to refer to us as just “the Catholic Church,” since they believe that’s their church). So he’s not necessarily wrong to have used “Roman Catholic Church” to refer to the whole Catholic Church.

And please keep in mind, I say that as a person who prefers the term “Catholic Church” myself and wishes that “Roman Catholic Church” would come to mean the Latin Church.

I personally find it troubling that the term “Roman Catholic” can be used to mean either “Latin Catholic” or “anyone in full communion with Rome”. (Incidentally, I’ve recently taken to avoiding the term “Roman Catholic”, for that reason.) I think that, terminology, is the issue here, not separatism.

I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, I have to admit that only on places like this forum does “Roman Catholic” mean “Latin Catholic.” I wish it were otherwise, but I admit that it’s not.

…and even after that you still have the Pope’s back… Now that’s some strong faith. That’s extremely respectable in my opinion, in fact -I have a whole newfound respect for your Churches now.

I swear I say this in complete honesty and truth!

 

[Peter_J]

Well if they asked then one would have to lie or not approach

I was talking about a situation in which the priest doesn’t ask. In fact, he goes considerably *beyond *not-asking: see where I said "After all, Fr X pretty much said If you’re Anglican and you want to receive communion, then don’t tell me that you’re Anglican."

 

[Peter_J]

Ah, understood. I see your point now and agree.

Excellent.

Originally Posted by Peter J

But you have to wonder: why don’t we just say “Latin Catholic” if that’s what we mean? Why do we need an additional term to mean the same thing?

 

[docnerves]

The Eastern Orthodox Church is strict in this regard, so doesn’t allow Catholics and Protestants to receive communion at its Divine Liturgies.

Let’s keep praying for reunion, for which a miracle is required.

This is true to a certain degree… The Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox Churches are not as “hard line” and again, that may not be straight across the board however; my 45+ years has demonstrated very little issue here and I have numerous friends who are Catholic and Orthodox Priests and Bishops.
My personal hope is that the Uki church may be the one to “lead the way” toward restoring unity.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

My personal hope is that the Uki church may be the one to “lead the way” toward restoring unity.

Wouldn’t that be something! There is something to be said for that, as Kiev seems to be at the crossroads of controversy both within the Ukraine and with respect to the Russian Orthodox Church, the largest Church in Orthodoxy. As Kiev goes, so should the rest …

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

But you have to wonder: why don’t we just say “Latin Catholic” if that’s what we mean? Why do we need an additional term to mean the same thing?

Yeah, great point. I wish I had an answer to that.

I think people - outside contexts like this forum - avoid the term “Latin Catholic,” despite its self-evidently superior specificity, because in more casual, colloquial settings, no one will know what that is. If I told my secular friends that I’m a “Latin Catholic,” they’d have to ask what that is. They’d probably start thinking it’s some kind of euphemism for Catholics who prefer the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite or something. Most of them have no idea that the Catholic Church is actually a communion of self-governing churches.

I, personally, wish the term “Roman Catholic” could be retired forever. It’s too vague to be useful. As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t even apply meaningfully to most Latin Catholics, let alone Eastern Catholics or Oriental Catholics.

In my mind, the only “Roman Catholics” are those who are actually members of the Church (Diocese) of Rome itself.

 

[Peter_J]

Good post.

If I told my secular friends that I’m a “Latin Catholic,” they’d have to ask what that is. They’d probably start thinking it’s some kind of euphemism for Catholics who prefer the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite or something.

Or they might even think you’re talking about ethnicity.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

If I told my secular friends that I’m a “Latin Catholic,” they’d have to ask what that is.

Such is the life of the Eastern Catholic, and the explanation normally begins: “Well, I am Catholic, just not Roman Catholic.”

 

[TEPO]

Such is the life of the Eastern Catholic, and the explanation normally begins: “Well, I am Catholic, just not Roman Catholic.”

It’s funny to me that the majority of Catholics are all so aware of the “political” aspects of our faith, not that anything is really all that political in reality, it’s just that outside of the Mass, most Catholics learn about their faith through secular media outlets such as the ‘nightly news’. That’s a shame in my opinion because there’s so much more to our Church than just that.

 

[docnerves]

Not under normal circumstances, Catholics do not receive the sacraments in non-Catholic churches, except in grave circumstances, and then only when avoiding indifferentism, that is, belief that all religions are equally valid. Catholics hold that the Orthodox do not have the fullness of faith, even though their administration of the Holy Mysteries is valid.

CCEO Canon 671 §2. If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

CIC Canon 844 §2 Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ’s faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

Are you quoting Cannon Law or the Cannon of the Eastern Catholic Churches?
I apologize: I have my books packed at the moment so I haven’t been able to refer to them

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Are you quoting Cannon Law or the Cannon of the Eastern Catholic Churches?

CIC is the common abbreviation for the 1983 Code of Canon Law, whereas CCEO is the accepted abbreviation for the 1990 Code of Canon Law of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

So, Vico is quoting both.

 

[docnerves]

Wouldn’t that be something! There is something to be said for that, as Kiev seems to be at the crossroads of controversy both within the Ukraine and with respect to the Russian Orthodox Church, the largest Church in Orthodoxy. As Kiev goes, so should the rest …

It is possible and the only thing that stands in the way is the fact that we’re Uki’s… LOL…
Remember, put 5 of us together and you get 6 1/2 political parties so “unity” will still take some work but surprisingly, I do believe that we’re the closest to it as compared to the rest of the churches.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

It is possible and the only thing that stands in the way is the fact that we’re Uki’s… LOL…

Yes, and we all come from the same basic stock. As my grandmother would often say, “We’re a stubborn people!”. Of course, that had double meaning.

 

[Peter_J]

It is possible and the only thing that stands in the way is the fact that we’re Uki’s… LOL…
Remember, put 5 of us together and you get 6 1/2 political parties so “unity” will still take some work but surprisingly, I do believe that we’re the closest to it as compared to the rest of the churches.

Love it!

But seriously, I wonder if the combination of strong praise and strong criticism that we often hear about Ukrainians will eventually settle into a “They’re not really much better or much worse than other people” kinda thing.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Good post.

Or they might even think you’re talking about ethnicity.

Haha, yeah, that’s true too.