Orthodox Christian feeling like West/East are divorced parents

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jofantioch
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jofantioch

Guest
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I was baptized Roman Catholic, but my parents raised me Atheist. I discovered Evangelical Christianity (good bible education via the protestants) in college and fell in love with Christ. Always feeling a need for more ceremony, I would cross my forehead with ashes from my grill on ash Wednesday and give up stuff for lent. It wasn’t until I went on tour to Russia that I came face to face with the ancient church.

I saw the work of thousands of Catholic (Orthodox) Christians who were long dead, their gifts to God were spectacular. Vestments encrusted with pearls, chalices bejeweled, and gorgeous painting. It wasn’t the opulence that struck me, it was the craftsmanship and love that were put into objects that were solely for devotion. I saw liturgy in Russia and was amazed at how much more respectful and beautiful it was than my protestant mega-church.

I went home and told my church that they need not send missionaries to Russia, “they’re already Christian.” I was kicked out of that church. I became Orthodox in 1994.

Now I have fallen in love with a Latin-Rite man. 😃 We feel like we’re in a little menage-a-toi with God. God gives us little romantic gifts each day and is blessing our chastity with a hotness I’ve never experienced before. It’s wonderful, but as we discuss marriage, I’m coming up against the divorce of the Eastern and Western churches. The thought of not taking communion with my beloved is physically painful. 😦 There’s so much nastiness about this, especially from the Orthodox side. I feel like a child of divorced parents. The parents shouldn’t be divorced and now the kids suffer.

I believe that the reconciliation of our churches will happen one home at a time. I’d sure like your (name removed by moderator)ut on this.
 
I agree that our Apostolic Church often feels like a broken home. It even feels that way from the Catholic perspective, despite our Communion containing the same traditions as the Orthodox plus our own unique ones. As long as there is a seperation between the Apostolic Churches, there is going to pain for us.

It’s actually good that you’re feeling that pain, IMO, because it seems to me that it shows you’re closer to Christ’s own Heart on the matter. Keep working on reconciliation, and your contribution of prayers and other efforts will certainly bear fruit. I really think all that God is waiting for is for us on Earth to truly WANT to be together again, and He will make it happen in a spectacular way. Until that desire is there, and the pain of divorce that goes along with it, I don’t think we’ll see much in the way of serious reunion across all the Churches.

Nurture your love for God, and for His many children, and hold tight to the pain of the split between the Churches. :byzsoc:

Peace and God bless!
 
My advice is simple, direct, and probably not what you want to hear:

if your conscience permits, you can “swim the Tiber”, and be in union with the See of Peter. But you need not become latin.

The Eastern churches in union with Rome are mostly Byzantines, being either descended from Constantinople’s or Moscow’s patriarchates.

If you can’t “make the swim” even to the “Eastern shores” of the Catholic church in Union, see if he will convert.

If neither, reconsider marriage.

A difference of praxis is livable, but a constant pain. (My wife is non-christian…) But, under Canon Law, your fiancé is required to have the children raised Catholic… just as under Orthodox Tradition, you are required to raise them within Russian Orthodoxy.
 
Dear sister Jofantioch,
Jofantioch said:
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I was baptized Roman Catholic, but my parents raised me Atheist. I discovered Evangelical Christianity (good bible education via the protestants) in college and fell in love with Christ. Always feeling a need for more ceremony, I would cross my forehead with ashes from my grill on ash Wednesday and give up stuff for lent. It wasn’t until I went on tour to Russia that I came face to face with the ancient church.

I saw the work of thousands of Catholic (Orthodox) Christians who were long dead, their gifts to God were spectacular. Vestments encrusted with pearls, chalices bejeweled, and gorgeous painting. It wasn’t the opulence that struck me, it was the craftsmanship and love that were put into objects that were solely for devotion. I saw liturgy in Russia and was amazed at how much more respectful and beautiful it was than my protestant mega-church.

I went home and told my church that they need not send missionaries to Russia, “they’re already Christian.” I was kicked out of that church. I became Orthodox in 1994.

Now I have fallen in love with a Latin-Rite man. 😃 We feel like we’re in a little menage-a-toi with God. God gives us little romantic gifts each day and is blessing our chastity with a hotness I’ve never experienced before. It’s wonderful, but as we discuss marriage, I’m coming up against the divorce of the Eastern and Western churches. The thought of not taking communion with my beloved is physically painful. 😦 There’s so much nastiness about this, especially from the Orthodox side. I feel like a child of divorced parents. The parents shouldn’t be divorced and now the kids suffer.

I believe that the reconciliation of our churches will happen one home at a time. I’d sure like your (name removed by moderator)ut on this.
Click to expand...
Like brother Aramis pointed out, translation to Eastern Catholicism could be an option for you. Since you have experienced a lot of “nastiness” coming from the Orthodox side (a common enough occurence, sad to say), if you wish your husband to become Orthodox, you might consider transferring jurisdictions to one which is more accepting of Catholicism. I don’t know where you live, but, for example, the Greek Orthodox Church in Boston has good fraternal relations with the local Catholic Church (despite the fact that the Greek Orthodox in the “old country” are rather anti-Catholic). I guess it really depends on your local Orthodox Church, and not even the jurisdiction in general.

Another thing to consider (if you do not already know) is that the Catholic Church officially and on the highest levels of our hierarchy accept the Eastern Orthodox Church as a sister Church. Unfortunately, the Eastern Orthodox Church does not have the same perception of the Catholic Church. That would be a major reason why you might be experiencing more nastiness from the Orthodox side.

If Eastern Orthodoxy becomes your family’s choice, it would be best for the children spiritually if you do find such a jurisdiction (or even local diocese or eparchy) that has good relations with the Catholic Church. It would be spiritually damaging for the children to grow up in an environment where prejudice and hatred of another because of religion is commonplace.

Here is the story of my own translation to the Catholic Church from Coptic Orthodoxy:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=202141&highlight=My+Witness

Note that I use the word “translation” instead of “conversion,” The reason will become evident if and once you read my story.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I agree with Ghosty that it is a good thing that you and your fiance feel the pain of separation and long for unity.

I disagree with those who say that your marriage alone is cause for conversion of one of you. Inter-faith marriages are not easy and I make no claims to the contrary. If it is the catalyst for one of you to study the other’s faith and convert then I have no problem, but my rule of thumb is this: if the engagement went horribly wrong and you split on bad terms, would the one who was converting remain in the new church for the rest of his or her days, convinced it was the true Church of God? If not, I don’t think the person should be converting.

I do encourage you to read about Catholicism and to visit Eastern Catholic Churches with the intention of knowing and understanding your husband-to-be better. If you become convinced that you belong there along the way then you can pursue it, and if you don’t then you will be able to share that part of your husband with him in a way you otherwise would not have been able to.

If you are Orthodox and he is Catholic, you can find ways to share unity with your husband without compromising on your faith. Saturday evening at one church and Sunday morning at another will become trying over time, especially after children arrive, but many people do it. You may also receive communion in the Catholic Church without converting. Your church does not ordinarily allow it because receiving communion is a sign of unity with the faithful present, but that would be your intention in receiving with your husband.

As someone else said, if it brings you pain and you are unable to resolve it, you might need to reconsider the wedding. The purpose of marriage is to get each other to heaven and if faith is a point of hurt and pain in your engagement it will only be harder down the road, and marrying other people who share your passion for your own faith might be the most loving thing both of you could do to help the other get to heaven.

It would be nice to think that you were called to be a bridge between the faiths or called to feel this pain acutely in your marriage by God’s design as a way of healing the schism. You both have to be solid, grounded, and of great faith and humility for an arrangement like that to work over time, and even then it will not be happy and lovely as most young women would like their marriages to be. If you are thinking of continuing the engagement on those grounds, I strongly encourage you both to set up regular spiritual direction and to discuss this calling you feel with your chosen director. The pain of schism is a heavy burden to take on.
 
Jofantioch said:
There’s so much nastiness about this, especially from the Orthodox side. I feel like a child of divorced parents. The parents shouldn’t be divorced and now the kids suffer.

I believe that the reconciliation of our churches will happen one home at a time. I’d sure like your (name removed by moderator)ut on this.
Click to expand...
very good analogy
the Popes since the last half of the last century including the current one have made restoration of Christian unity a priority, and so should we.

your actual rite depends on where you were baptized, or where your father was baptized, if you have not formally joined an orthodox church or an eastern rite you may become a latin rite CAtholic. Your children will belong to their father’s rite. This is my opinion based on other info posted here in the past, best to consult the priest overseeing your marriage preparation about this.
 
Thank you for your words of warning and encouragement. Here are my thoughts.
  1. I became Orthodox to align myself with the church that Christ planted. I didn’t want a cheap imitation.
  2. Christ’s will is NEVER separation. The schism is man-made and therefore not recognized by Christ.
  3. If indeed the Roman Catholic Church is the original church and the Orthodox church is the original church, than they are one. God does not separate.
  4. If a man and woman become “one flesh”, wouldn’t that be a reconnecting of our churches within our family?
  5. All leaders are human, but the holy spirit (given at baptism), isn’t. If my leaders say one thing, but God says another, whom am I to follow? There are Popes who have been unholy and there have been Patriarchs who have been unholy. Ultimately, we need to behave according to what Jesus wants. He is the true head of the church. No?
  6. The tragedies of the Western Church occurred because there were no checks and balances with the East. The same is true of the Eastern Church. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Dark Ages, Indulgences, etc. were a result of unchecked power in the West and lack of communication with the East. Our churches’ separation makes both churches weaker. All of the sins of the Eastern Church that I’ve read on this site were the result of a lack of checked power and lack of communication with the West. Certainly we can see this. Why are we continuing to honor a separation that is detrimental to the Church of Christ?
  7. As far as marrying my Roman Sweetheart: I love him and want our home to be a peaceful one. I think that my Orthodoxy is more a daily thing than a Sunday thing. I need an icon corner, singing my prayers, censing the house, etc. I’m perfectly happy belonging to a Roman Parish. We’ll see if he will propose.
I know I ranted, but I needed to get this off my chest. As a convert, I am more interested in Christ than heirarchy. Maybe it’s the American in me.
 
Jofantioch said:
As far as marrying my Roman Sweetheart: I love him and want our home to be a peaceful one. I think that my Orthodoxy is more a daily thing than a Sunday thing. I need an icon corner, singing my prayers, censing the house, etc.
Click to expand...
Amen. God bless you!
Jofantioch said:
I’m perfectly happy belonging to a Roman Parish. We’ll see if he will propose.
Click to expand...
Have you asked him how he would feel belonging to an Orthodox parish?

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif
 
Jofantioch said:
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I was baptized Roman Catholic, but my parents raised me Atheist. I discovered Evangelical Christianity (good bible education via the protestants) in college and fell in love with Christ. Always feeling a need for more ceremony, I would cross my forehead with ashes from my grill on ash Wednesday and give up stuff for lent. It wasn’t until I went on tour to Russia that I came face to face with the ancient church.

I saw the work of thousands of Catholic (Orthodox) Christians who were long dead, their gifts to God were spectacular. Vestments encrusted with pearls, chalices bejeweled, and gorgeous painting. It wasn’t the opulence that struck me, it was the craftsmanship and love that were put into objects that were solely for devotion. I saw liturgy in Russia and was amazed at how much more respectful and beautiful it was than my protestant mega-church.

I went home and told my church that they need not send missionaries to Russia, “they’re already Christian.” I was kicked out of that church.*** I became Orthodox in 1994***.

Now I have fallen in love with a Latin-Rite man. 😃 We feel like we’re in a little menage-a-toi with God. God gives us little romantic gifts each day and is blessing our chastity with a hotness I’ve never experienced before. It’s wonderful, but as we discuss marriage, I’m coming up against the divorce of the Eastern and Western churches. The thought of not taking communion with my beloved is physically painful. 😦 There’s so much nastiness about this, especially from the Orthodox side. I feel like a child of divorced parents. The parents shouldn’t be divorced and now the kids suffer.

I believe that the reconciliation of our churches will happen one home at a time. I’d sure like your (name removed by moderator)ut on this.
Click to expand...
go back to your baptism. :twocents: 🙂
 
East_and_West said:
Hmmmm. Trying to convert people from our Church? I think there is a rule here at Catholic Answers about that. :whistle:
Click to expand...
Oh please stop being so paranoid. She said that she had no problem joining the Roman rite, and I asked if she proposed Orthodoxy to him.

SHEESH!
 
My understanding of the Orthodox is that once you leave that church there is no return ever. Catholics do not work like that. They will accept a repentant person back. Such as a Catholic who left the church and decided to return. Just food for thought.
 
Mickey said:
Oh please stop being so paranoid. She said that she had no problem joining the Roman rite, and I asked if she proposed Orthodoxy to him.

SHEESH!
Click to expand...
Hey. What if I suggested the reverse at oc.net? The moderators would be up in arms. Here, just as there, there are rules and one of those rules is that here you don’t try to get people out of the Catholic Church. So, smiles and hugs and all…🙂
 
sambos671 said:
My understanding of the Orthodox is that once you leave that church there is no return ever. Catholics do not work like that. They will accept a repentant person back. Such as a Catholic who left the church and decided to return. Just food for thought.
Click to expand...
Are you sure this is true of the Eastern Orthodox? I am pretty sure they will accept you back if you return with sorrow, repentance, and penance.
 
I didn’t want a cheap imitation.
Click to expand...
Please explain.

Is this a reference to the Eastern Catholic Churches? If so, you’re wrong.

God bless,

Rony
 
Are you sure this is true of the Eastern Orthodox? I am pretty sure they will accept you back if you return with sorrow, repentance, and penance.
Click to expand...
I got this information from an Orthodox Priest. During our discussion I came up with the question whether a person becoming Orthodox once believing the faith could leave and return. He said unequivocally no. Also they are very sure that there is no salvation apart from their church. Catholics are very different in that they have allowed that protestants are christian though misled and hold heretical views but not out of the picture so to speak.
 
Hey, I’m not trying to convert anyone. Only the Holy Spirit can do that anyway and, since I’m not Him, the question is moot.

We went to an Eastern Catholic church last night for Compline. My beloved and I spoke with the priest at length and it was a very enlightening discussion. This man had a great sense of humor, something I trust and respond to. “Well, Peter was first at Antioch, and he was just fine when he left us!”

The main sticking point with my beloved is how to raise the children. This Eastern Catholic priest helped us in this regard.

Thanks again for all your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
I like the sentiments of the original poster. I do agree with those that at least a six week try at a good Eastern (Byzantine) Catholic Church might just be the way this nice couple can help bring the two lungs of the Church together.

CDL
 
Mickey said:
No one tried to get anyone out of anywhere. Please brother–do not be so paranoid.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_200v.gif
Click to expand...
Oh Mickey, you really like the word “paranoid” don’t you? However, no matter how much you use the word you still suggested that a Catholic become a member of an EO parish. That is trying to get them out of our Church, no matter how you choose to spin it. So, please, keep it out off the Catholic Forum. And hey, if makes you feel better, you can go over oc.net and suggest Catholics leave the Church to your heart’s content.
Many Blessings
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top