Orthodox Christianity - Am I missing anything?

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Mohommed was apparently aware of the Holy Scripture of the Jews and the Christians and pronounced it suitable for his people, although he did not accept it as the Christians or the Jews do.
Yes; just like Joseph Smith. Mohammed and his associates were more than just “aware” of Jewish and Christian Scriptures. They based their heretical faith on them, and intentionally rewrote them in order to suit their novel doctrines.
Islam was, in fact, just another form of pagan monotheism that did not arise from any prior existing group.
No, Islam is based entirely on Judaism and Christianity. It draws from the mythos of Abraham, not from any Canaanite or other Semitic concept of the god El/Allah. Islam simply took Judaism, Christianity (and, to a lesser extent, Zoroastrianism) as they existed in the 7th Century and incorporated their doctrines into a theocratic cult that could unite and advance the Arabic peoples. The only thing “pagan” about Islam is the fact that Arab paganism included the pan-Semitic concept of “El” - the chief God of the Semitic pantheon who was equated with the God of Abraham by the early Hebrews - and also whatever pagan Arab folk traditions that were retained in the popular expression of Islam. Other than this, Islam is clearly a bastardized form of the Judeo-Christian religion; and specifically of Syrian (Semitic) Christianity.

To see this, one must gain an appreciation of Syrian (Semitic) Christianity, in which this native people sees itself, not as Gentiles, but as the living continuation of the people of Israel (which is true, since these Aramaic-speaking Semitic Christians are the direct cultural descendants of the original Jewish Church) and which also possessed a tradition of appreciating certain truths of the Zoroastrian faith (e.g. the faith of the Magi who sought out Christ in the Gospel of Matthew). Islam is built directly upon this Christian tradition.
So it isn’t comparable to…Congregationalism (for example), which has clear roots in the Roman Catholic church, nor Mormonism, which has clear roots in other Christian groups that originated from the Roman Catholic church.
I’m sorry, but your analysis could not be more incorrect. Islam is exactly like Mormonism.
I suggest that you reference support for your outrageous statement above, or explain how you made such a mistake. Or you might as well accept the fact that people here will consider that you are spreading lies to manipulate their thinking.
See above. 🙂
 
After much reading, deliberation & prayer I am ready to convert to the Greek Orthodox Church. It appears that they have “stayed-the-course”, have a more unblemished history, i.e., no crusades, inquisition, misappropriation of funds [think abuse of “indulgences”], etc.

Surprisingly I found their apologetics more defensible and easily palatable than answers I discovered in the Catholic theology. Their responses to such issues like the Eucharist, Immaculate Conception appear to be more simplistic yet cerebral; consequently, I ponder serious conversion to the OCA. Enlightenment welcomed. Thank you and God Bless and have mercy on us all.
Your bio says you’re seeking. What is your current faith that you are converting from?
 
I hope everyone readstothe bottom of this article to discover that 200 years after the introduction of Absolution Certificates, theCouncil of the Church condemned it as well as all other Latin heresies that had infected the OC.

As for the abuse of indulgences by the Orthodox, this article may prove enlightening:

pravoslavie.ru/enarticles/041125153738
 
Though their profiles do not show it, the vast majority of Orthodox members at CA have been banned, and those few who haven’t like myself, have little desire to post here anymore.
That’s a red herring John. Have you ever counted the number of Catholics who have been banned?
 
That’s a red herring John. Have you ever counted the number of Catholics who have been banned?
Seeing as Catholics are by far the majority on this forum, it is inevitable that some of them will cross the line and find themselves banned. That is no comparison to what befell the tiny minority of Orthodox on this forum.
 
Seeing as Catholics are by far the majority on this forum, it is inevitable that some of them will cross the line and find themselves banned.
You’ve just identified why Catholics AND Orthodox or anyone else, would be banned.
Prod:
That is no comparison to what befell the tiny minority of Orthodox on this forum.
John,

It has nothing to do with minority or majority. As you say, it has to do with crossing the line. Obviously lines got crossed.
 
I may just do that :), its pretty obvious that you wont 👍
John,

It’s not that I won’t, I have not seen the point you elude to, developed into an apologetic here by the Orthodox. That doesn’t mean it never happened, I just don’t recall seeing it from the Orthodox regulars who posted here…
 
If any clergyman has a dispute with another…let him first submit his case to his own bishop, or let it be tried by referees chosen by both parties and approved by the bishop. Let anyone who acts contrary be liable to canonical penalties. If, on the other hand, a clergyman has a dispute with his own bishop or with some other bishop, let it be tried by the synod of the province. But if any bishop or clergyman has a dispute with the metropolitan of the same province, let him apply either to the exarch of the diocese or to the throne of the imperial capital Constantinople, and let it be tried before him.
The ninth Canon of the fourth ecumenical synod (451)
 
You’ve just identified why Catholics AND Orthodox or anyone else, would be banned.
That is not the reason the Orthodox were banned however.
It has nothing to do with minority or majority. As you say, it has to do with crossing the line. Obviously lines got crossed.
We know that wasn’t the case, but by all means carry on believing what you want.
 
Then, at the very end of the Middle Ages, Protestantism came along. I think it’s safe to say that most of the ancient heresies which were condemned in the past have arisen again within the various Protestant bodies. I don’t think the argument that the West is more correct because more heresies arose in the East is that convincing, as those heresies were dealt with, whereas Protestantism is alive and well.

Arianism has been alive for ages - it’s not dead. Far from it. Probably most Christological heresies are alive. Most heresies had a life-span of centuries: Arianism did famously - no Catholic converted the Goths from paganism; the Arians got there first.​

Were it not for the rise of Protestantism, there might never have been a Catholic reform of any great extent; just a few squibs of reform here and there, & more good measures favouring reform never getting anywhere. The ancient anti-heretical Councils did not roll back heresy, nor did they reform the Church. Thanks to the shock of Protestantism, Trent did both.
 
Then, at the very end of the Middle Ages, Protestantism came along. I think it’s safe to say that most of the ancient heresies which were condemned in the past have arisen again within the various Protestant bodies. I don’t think the argument that the West is more correct because more heresies arose in the East is that convincing, as those heresies were dealt with, whereas Protestantism is alive and well.
I’m not so sure about the “well” part.
 
True. But, considering a) that Islam is really a Gnostic form of Syrian Christianity and b) the only reason why Islam succeeded and took over the East was because of the Monophysite majority among the native Christians in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Armenia, and Anatolia, who welcomed the Muslims as “liberators” from the “oppressive” Melkite (a.k.a. Greek Orthodox) bishops and imperial magistrates from Constantinople, the reality is that the East still holds the title for most rampant problem with heresy.

1/2 billion disunited Protestants isn’t much of a problem compared to 1.2 billion Muslims, and about 60 million non-Chalcedonian (a.k.a. Monophysite and Nestorian) heretics. We can thank the Eastern Church/Empire for this. So, when that good Russian Orthodox, Dostoevsky, said that “Roman Catholicism is an error, and Protestantism is the error of the error,” he should have taken a better look at his own backyard. What’s more, if you look at the REAL reason behind Protestantism, it was essentially a back-lash against the wealth, power, and imperial-style pomp of the Roman Papacy; and the only reason that the Roman Papacy adopted this wealth, power, and pomp in the first place was to contend with the Byzantine Emperors (those “Christs on earth”/ “heads of the Church”), who were constantly leading the Church into heresy. It was because of the caesaro-papism in the East that the Bishops of Rome (who, in the early days, acted as final courts of appeal and not hands-on autocrats) were forced to behave like emperors and to wield their Christ-given authority in ways that the secular “Christian” Empire could understand, appreciate, and take seriously.

If you think about it, this is the only way to be a primal shepherd in a theocratic Empire, and a pastor for an emperor who considered himself God’s representative over the temporal realm. But, among the late medieval N. Europeans - the non-Roman/Byzantine “barbarians” (who became the first Protestants) - this “style of Papacy” (which was designed to operate in the realm of Byzantine “Romanitas”) seemed haughty, sinful, and unbiblical; and it was this style of Papal authority that the Protestants “protested” against. Once one realizes this, then suddenly the Byzantines can even be blamed for Protestantism! …because the Protestant revolt was indirectly the Eastern Church’s fault too, since the “imperial-style Papacy” that the Protestants called “the Beast” and “the Whore of Babylon” came into existence (as a necessary evil) to counter the immense influence of heretical Byzantine Emperors. And, in Revelation, it is the Emperor who is “the Beast.” Let those with understanding take heed. 🙂
…and ignore this post.

Talk about revisionism.

Those Melkites you deride were YOU (I’m assuming that you claim that the EO didn’t come into existence until 1054).

And a shred of evidence on this Islam-is-gnostic-Orthodoxy? North Africa (i.e. the Latin part) was Islamicized LOOONG before Syria and Egypt (which still have sizable Christian populations).

Who took the title pontifex maximus?
 
Isu,

I’m a little confused. If you’re under the Pope of Alexandra, Shenouda, then you’re Oriental Orthodox. And your communion of Churches is not in communion with Eastern Orthodoxy. Am I missing something?
Pope Theodore is the EO Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria. We already have limited official recognition (we accept each others baptisms and weddings) and widespread unofficial recognition (intercommunion).
 
I must say this thread is terrible. Some of the arguments are…well…irrelevant and blanketed heavier than a Siberian couple. Ones like “well, most heresies were from the East…” and “the East treated the heretics poorly” and finally the most classic blanket: “They don’t have the Pope, so they’re wrong.” The last one may be relevant to dogma if expanded upon, but certainly not to maintaining the Orthodox unity. They have withstood (as posted many times) more problems than any other group. Blanket statements do absolutely nothing. Most heresies were from the East? I mean, someone of tribal origin could just as easily say that disease is from the West. Does that mean there are not just as deadly diseases from the East and even from within the tribes? No, of course not. You must look at it from other view points! Furthermore, the old “East treats everyone badly” is a shot in the foot to EVERY Westerner as well. Besides that, one cannot blame the POLITICAL prerogatives of the East on the Orthodox Church anymore than one can blame Western political problems on the Catholic Church.

I have been off this forum for several days now and I’m not too thrilled with what I now see…😦

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
I must say this thread is terrible. Some of the arguments are…well…irrelevant and blanketed heavier than a Siberian couple. Ones like “well, most heresies were from the East…” and “the East treated the heretics poorly” and finally the most classic blanket: “They don’t have the Pope, so they’re wrong.” The last one may be relevant to dogma if expanded upon, but certainly not to maintaining the Orthodox unity. They have withstood (as posted many times) more problems than any other group. Blanket statements do absolutely nothing. Most heresies were from the East? I mean, someone of tribal origin could just as easily say that disease is from the West. Does that mean there are not just as deadly diseases from the East and even from within the tribes? No, of course not. You must look at it from other view points! Furthermore, the old “East treats everyone badly” is a shot in the foot to EVERY Westerner as well. Besides that, one cannot blame the POLITICAL prerogatives of the East on the Orthodox Church anymore than one can blame Western political problems on the Catholic Church.

I have been off this forum for several days now and I’m not too thrilled with what I now see…😦

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
…As a follower of Our Lord…who comes from the Greek Orthodox Church…I tooo have not been around here very much. I don’t like it when my own family members squabble…even more so the Body of Our Lord…I grew up in a mixed household…family dinners and celebrations often turned into “verbal food fights” just like I have seen and heard here. NONE of us has ALL the answers…we do the best we can to defend the faiths we LOVE. But I have seen over the 40+years of my life…just how unkind and unloving the various branches of the faith are to one another…
THIS BREAKS THE WOUNDED-SACRED HEART OF OUR LORD…😦 I dont know about you…but I would rather stab my own heart…than ever to hurt Our Dear Precious Lord…but every time we throw stones at each other…it is HIM we are wounding…I just pray the words HE prayed…“Father forgive them…for they know not whatthey do.” and the prayer we say every Sunday…“Forgive MY transgretions…voluntary or involuntary…known and unknown” 😊

I long for the day when OUR LORD comes back…but as my priest asked the other day…ARE YOU TRULY READY? Are you ready to stand infront of the Son of The Most High??? and I’ll give you the same answer I gave my Priest? No I am not ready to stand…I am ready to throw myself at HIS feet and beg for Mercy for what we are ALL about to receive…

The Church is HIS beloved BRIDE…I pray I dont get what I truly derseve…but beg for the forgiveness, mercy and most of all LOVE.

(((if anyone want to know their Orthodox brothers and sister…go visit the church…everyone is welcome to come to The Divine Liturgy…or go to the next Greek Festival where there is usually chance to go inside the host church for a chance learn and share)))
 
Is it not troubling to see the practice of calling great devotions meant for the Whole Church with the negativistic term of ’ latinisation’ in the East !

Does it even border on the sin of calumny …

How can any one worry that such devotions would diminsh the goodness and spiritual life of the faithful …

Happened to read that it was our Bl.Mother who had the first Stations of The Cross devotion , at Ephesus …

May be if one would see the Hand of our Lord in many events , would it not make us ask - what does He want …

True , the Popes have been good at encouraging The East to nurture its own traditions …and yet , never mentioned that the East has to discourage or not own up these great ’ talents’ and use it …esp. when these can be of good help in some all important areas of life and marriage .

Now , laxity in such practices as fasting or any such negative worldly ways can be attribted to ’ Westernisation ’ if one chooses to …

Hope these forums would help all to chesrih with reverence the great blessings The Father has given us all , to be shared …and to build up !

Blessings !
 
Talk about revisionism.

Those Melkites you deride were YOU (I’m assuming that you claim that the EO didn’t come into existence until 1054).
Correction: Those Melkites that I “deride” were in communion with Rome, but Rome had no direct control over their activities, and often looked with disfavor on them. You can see this quite clearly if you go back and look at the actual history. The Melkites were the agents of the Byzantine Emperor, who sent them to replace the native bishops of the “Oriental” provinces, often whether those native bishops were truly Monophysite or not. Those who were not Monophysite often ended up in exile in Rome, where they were welcomed and supported. This was certainly true of a great many Syrian bishops in the 7th & 8th Centuries, a few of whom were elected Pope. But, as for the Melchite agenda itself, it was merely a byproduct of having a theocratic state like the Byzantine Empire.

When Constantinople finally accepted Chalcedon as the rule of the state (it wavered on it for some time), it became necessary to maintain imperial law (the law of the Empire’s state cult) in all corners of the Empire, thus having Greek bishops who were loyal to the Empire when the native Coptic, Syrian, or Armenian bishops could not be trusted to uphold Chalcedon solved this problem. It was a practical solution for maintaining Chalcedonian orthodoxy; and medieval Rome could not argue with that. What Rome clearly continued to do (at least well into the 700’s) is argue for the primacy of Alexandria (and Antioch) over Constantinople, which was not in keeping with the Melkite agenda at all. So, don’t lay this problem at Rome’s feet.
And a shred of evidence on this Islam-is-gnostic-Orthodoxy? North Africa (i.e. the Latin part) was Islamicized LOOONG before Syria and Egypt (which still have sizable Christian populations).
🙂 Sorry, but you don’t know your history. Western N. Africa (which was, then, a Byzantine province, by the way - controlled directly from Constantinople) fell to the Muslims between 670 and 698. Damascus (Syria) fell to Islam back in 636. Jerusalem (Palestine) fell to Islam in 637. And Alexandria (Egypt) fell to Islam in 640, with most of the rest of Egypt in their control before that; so, you’re between 30 and 50 years off. What’s more, unlike in the East, the native peoples of Western N. Africa did not apostatize and accept Islam; rather, the vast majority of them fled to (still-Christian) Spain and S. Italy and were replaced with (mostly pagan) Berber people from the south (who welcomed the Muslims as liberators). This is in striking contrast to what happened among the Christian majority populations in Egypt and Syria, when (either immediately or over the course of time) many Christian families converted to Islam to get tax cuts and better treatment in Islamic society.
Who took the title pontifex maximus?
You mean, who was it given to? The Pope of Rome (back in the 370’s). But, this had nothing to do with the 7th Century Melkites. When the Melkites were first dispatched by the Emperor, the Pope of Rome had not yet begun to micro-manage the Church, especially not in the East. In fact, the very reason why the Papacy developed from the Church’s final court of appeal to a proactive, hands-on “manager” was precisely because the Pope had to compete with the (often-heretical) Byzantine Emperors, who saw themselves as the “Christ on earth” and the legal head of the universal Church (in its capacity of Byzantine state cult), and only the Pope could undo the nonsense that heretical Emperors were imposing on the Church. The Eastern Church tends to consistently forget about this. But, if you read the history, it was the Eastern bishops (and abbots of the Eastern monasteries) who consistently appealed to Rome and begged the Pope to involve himself directly and proactively.

Now, centuries later, the successors of these same Eastern bishops and abbots complain about this and argue that the Pope has no right to micro-manage things. 🙂 But, that’s not how their ancestors saw it; and it would be nice if the East would reconcile itself with its own history (viz. Rome) and the natural developments which came from this history.
 
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