Orthodox Churches, and Eastern Rite

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CONTINUATION OF THE ABOVE

Chapter 4. On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff:
we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
that is, when,
  1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
  2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
  3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church,
    he possesses,
    by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
    that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed His Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
    Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.
    It is not possible to reconcile the collegiality expressed in Canon 34 of the Holy Apostles with its requirement that the Primate, “do anything without the consent of all” with the unlimited authority given to the Pope by the 1st Vatican Council.
    This is not the opinion of an historian, but is the only conclusion possible by comparing the canon 34 of the Holy Apostles with the decrees of the 1st Vatican Council. The canons of the Apostles and of Antioch in 431 reflect the conciliarity that characterized the administration of the ancient Church and which still remains the standard of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The decrees of the 1st Vatican Council reflect a different spirit that is foreign to the spirit of the ancient undivided Church, the spirit of papal absolutism. If the Popes would return to the conciliarism of the ancient undivided Church, the most important barrier to unity with Orthodoxy would be overcome. However, as long as Rome operates according to the papal absolutism of Vatican I, unity will not be possible because we are not willing to betray the heritage of the ancient undivided Church to submit to unlimited papal authority.
Fr. John
 
However, as long as Rome operates according to the papal absolutism of Vatican I, unity will not be possible because we are not willing to betray the heritage of the ancient undivided Church to submit to unlimited papal authority.
It seems that union between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic is at an insurmountable impasse.
 
The texts used by the Eastern Orthodox Church clearly state that Mary died. The Melkite Eastern Catholics and Byzantine Catholics use the same texts.
I disagree about “clearly” part of this sentence about the Byzantine liturgical texts. There is no clear statement: she died, rather we hear about dormition or her having having come to the end of her earthly life. References to “death” are about the phenomenon and are written as paradox - eg virgin after childbearing and alive after death; death could not hold her, etc. This is far from saying she died, because the the feast is clear about her being alive, united in body and soul, in heaven. The texts * clearly*, indeed explicitly, refer to her “deathless dormition”. Your fixation on her death misses the whole point of the feast. The tradition is that she died: the icon of the feast does depict the separation of her soul and body, but the idea that that separation - be it for days or seconds of femtoseconds - has some great significance mystifies me. Is there any such teaching in the liturgical texts. That is not the message of the feast.
… it is obvious that belief that Mary actually died before she was assumed is not in contradiction with Catholic doctrine
.
Yes, this is certainly true. The CC has never made a dogmatic statement on her death (why would it?). More importantly, as you apparently perceive, her death represents no contradiction whatsoever to the dogma of the Immaculate Conception,
 
It seems that union between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic is at an insurmountable impasse.
It all depends on Rome. If Rome insists that we submit to Vatican I. You are right. I cannot accept Vatican I and am sure that the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy is not willing to give up our ancient conciliarism to place ourselves under what amounts to an absolute dictatorship. I can find no justification for giving one man as much power as Vatican I gave the Popes. That is not the way things were in the age of the ancient undivided Church or according to the canons of the Ecumenical Councils during which the Church followed conciliarism.

Fr. John
 
St Maximus the Confessor; Life of the Virgin, pg136 chp 110.

“As She escaped the pains of childbirth in the ineffable nativity, so the pains of death did not come upon Her at the time of Her Dormition, for both then and now the Lord of natures altered nature.”
 
Same page…

"Then the Lord held forth His right hand, Blessed His Mother and said to Her; “Let your heart rejoice and be glad, O Mary Blessed among women, for every Grace and Gift has been given to you by my heavenly Father, and every soul that calls on your name with holiness, will not be put to shame, but will find mercy and comfort both in this life and the age to come” "
 
It all depends on Rome. If Rome insists that we submit to Vatican I. You are right. I cannot accept Vatican I and am sure that the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy is not willing to give up our ancient conciliarism to place ourselves under what amounts to an absolute dictatorship. I can find no justification for giving one man as much power as Vatican I gave the Popes. That is not the way things were in the age of the ancient undivided Church or according to the canons of the Ecumenical Councils during which the Church followed conciliarism.

Fr. John
However, according to present teaching of the RCC, the obstacle lies with the E. Orthodox Church which will not submit to RC teaching. Since both sides feel the same way about the other, and neither side is willing to compromise on its doctrines, I don’t see any chance of reunion unless each side accepts pluralism, such as they have in the Anglican Church of today. Of course, the argument can be made that pluralism in doctrine weakens the credibility of the Church.
 
St Maximus the Confessor; Life of the Virgin, pg136 chp 110.

“As She escaped the pains of childbirth in the ineffable nativity, so the pains of death did not come upon Her at the time of Her Dormition, for both then and now the Lord of natures altered nature.”
The liturgical texts used for the Feast of the Dormition clearly refer to the death of the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary. They also refer to her assumption after her death. I wonder why it was even necessary for Pope Pius IX to declare the Assumption a dogma of the Church since the Church had celebrated her falling asleep and assumption for centuries. St. John of Damascus wrote about the Assumption. The actual feast on August 15 was established in the East Emperor Maurice in around 600 and in the West by Pope Leo IV two centuries later. In Eastern Orthodoxy we adhere strictly to the principle Lex orandi, lex credendi which means the law of prayer is the law of belief. If our liturgical texts teach something like the Assumption, we do not need an official declaration that we believe in the Assumption.

Fr. John
 
However, according to present teaching of the RCC, the obstacle lies with the E. Orthodox Church which will not submit to RC teaching. Since both sides feel the same way about the other, and neither side is willing to compromise on its doctrines, I don’t see any chance of reunion unless each side accepts pluralism, such as they have in the Anglican Church of today. Of course, the argument can be made that pluralism in doctrine weakens the credibility of the Church.
Not pluralism, but allowance for different forms of administration. There would have to be doctrinal agreement with the provision that both sides can use their particular terminology to express the same belief.
There has never been a question that the Pope had authority over the West or that he led a primacy of honor over the entire Church. The West would simply continue to follow its traditions while the East continue our own conciliar form of government. The only difference would be that the Pope would not exercise more than a symbolic authority over the East, but he never did exercise more than that in the East.
The ultimate authority would be an Ecumenical Council, which with modern transportation would be much easier to assemble. The Pope or his representative would preside over an Ecumenical Council, but neither the Pope nor the ancient Patriarchs could have an individual veto, although if they all agree, that should carry enough weight to override a decision of an Ecumenical Council to avoid any repetition of the fiasco of 449. They could even form a sort of executive committee of the ancient Patriarchates, to meet between Ecumenical Councils to discuss issues of common concern. Vatican I could be overruled by a new Ecumenical Council. After all that would not be the first time that Rome has overruled what it considers an Ecumenical Council. The decree “Sanctrosancta” of the Council of Constance in 1415 was overruled by Rome.

Fr. John
 
I RESPOND: You are right. I do not give a balanced assessment of Blessed Augustine, because Augustine contradicts himself. At times he affirms free will, but other times, he denies it. That is one of the problems with Augustine. People can read different and conflicting teachings from Augustine.
Augustine penned over 100 extant works, cumulatively containing in excess of five million words; so synthesizing particular doctrines can be difficult. Hopefully as a saint and Father of the Church Augustine gets the same presumption of consistency in his works as the eastern saints, until the contrary is proven. I don’t always find that the EO treat him this way though.
For example, he is very close if not identical to Calvin when he wrote:
Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated. For whom He predestinated, them He also called, with that calling, to wit, which is according to the purpose. Not others, therefore, but those whom He predestinated, them He also called; nor others, but those whom He so called, them He also justified; nor others, but those whom He predestinated, called, and justified, them He also glorified; assuredly to that end which has no end. Therefore God elected believers; but He chose them that they might be so, not because they were already so. “On the Predestination of the Saints,” Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers Series I, vol. 5, p. 515
With respect, I think you are doing the same thing the Reformers did when they would pick and choose a single chapter from a single work to somehow fully express Augustine’s thought on the matter. Predestination was a response to a request from St. Prosper for assistance against the teachings of Pelagius. The Semi-Pelagian heresy claimed that initial faith is given as a result of our own merits. Augustine forcefully argued that initial faith is a result of unmerited grace, not our good works:

And, therefore, commending that grace which is not given according to any merits, but is the cause of all good merits, he says, Not that we are sufficient to think anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God. 2 Corinthians 3:5 Let them give attention to this, and well weigh these words, who think that the beginning of faith is of ourselves, and the supplement of faith is of God.Chapter 5.

Augustine is not interested in treating the concept of free will at all. He is focused on correcting the semi-Pelagian notion that initial faith is the result of meritorious good works rather than unmerited grace. In fact, other than quotes from Pelagius, Augustine only references “free will” once in Predestination. Here is what he says:

Was He not born the only Son of God, of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary—not of the lust of the flesh, but by God’s peculiar gift? Was it to be feared that as age matured this man, He would sin of free will? Or was the will in Him not free on that account? And was it not so much the more free in proportion to the greater impossibility of His becoming the servant of sin? Chapter 30.

Notice that Augustine does not deny free will, here in connection with Christ. Instead he states that he who receives more grace is more free than he who receives less grace. This is the mystery of the relationship between grace and free will. It is a very catholic statement.
He also wrote the following which certainly seems to deny free will, “It came by the freedom of choice that man was with sin; but a penal corruption closely followed thereon, and out of the liberty produced necessity. Hence the cry of faith to God, “Lead Thou me out of my necessities.” With these necessities upon us, we are either unable to understand what we want, or else (while having the wish) we are not strong enough to accomplish what we have come to understand. Now it is just liberty itself that is promised to believers by the Liberator. “If the Son,” says He, “shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”For, vanquished by the sin into which it fell by its volition, nature has lost liberty. “ “On Man’s Perfection In Righteousness” Ibid, p. 162
My interpretation of this passage is quite different from yours, although that may be because I am very familiar with On Free Will and the related Retractationes. It is not possible that Augustine is denying free will here, because he explicitly states that “t came by the freedom of choice that man was with sin.” It is only when man gives up his liberty and agrees to let Christ work through him (and this is done freely, yet with the assistance of grace) that he shall truly be free. I simply do not see the problem with this passage.
 
. . . continued
However, you are right, in other works Blessed Augustine taught free will.
In my opinion he teaches free will in the two paragraphs you provided. I have never seen a passage where Augustine explicitly denies that free will is an existential of mankind.
There is no doubt that Augustine’s writings led to a major controversy in the West because many read his writings to deny free will. St. Vincent believed that some of Augustine’s writings were contrary to the teaching of the Fathers.
St. Vincent of Lerins opposed the writings of St. Prosper, who was a proponent of Augustine. I have never read this exchange, so I can’t really comment on it. St. Augustine is a Father, so if he contradicted other Fathers I would need to see the citations.
I RESPOND Luther and Calvin did teach on the necessity of Baptism for salvation. Only the Anabapists denied infant Baptism. Later some Calvinists fell under Anabaptist influence and invented the Baptist religion which is a combination of Calvinism and Anabaptism.
You have a point here. The Book of Concord and the Westminster Confession of Faith both implicitly require the sacrament of baptism for salvation, although I would argue not on the same basis as proffered by Augustine. He taught that original sin is actually removed (original holiness is restored - in the theology of Aquinas) through baptism. Luther and Calvin never really affirmed this. I believe they viewed baptism as a kind of legalistic requirement that is a command performance on the part of God without the corresponding reality of its effect.
They also twisted Augustine to fit their theology. I do not have time to find the exact citation, but there are followers of the Reformed Movement who quote Augustine to justify their denial of the transformation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. However, I once looked up their reference and found that they had taken Augustine completely out of context. Because as we all know Augustine believed in the correct doctrine that the bread and wine become the actual Body and Blood of Christ during the Eucharist.
Yes, I was actually going to bring that up in my original post to you, but thought it to be off topic. I’m glad you brought it up though, because it probably is the most stark example of how the Reformers misrepresented Augustines sacramental theology.
I RESPOND: Followers of both Luther and Calvin will tell you that their beliefs are straight from Augustine. From his reading of Augustine, Luther got his teaching of total depravity as he expressed in his work “The Bondage of the Will.”
They will also tell you that their beliefs are based on St. Paul’s Epistles, particularly Romans. Yet we certainly can’t blame St. Paul for his emphasis on predestination in Romans when he elsewhere (and even in Romans really) affirms individual merit. I see St. Augustine the same way. Ironically, the Reformers exercised their free will to ignore the teachings of the undivided Church, which apparently was able to understand Augustine’s theology.
 
However, according to present teaching of the RCC, the obstacle lies with the E. Orthodox Church which will not submit to RC teaching.
That assertion may be made by some Catholics, but not all of us feel that way. In fact …

“Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other”
  • the Balamand Statement
If you wish to enter into communion with Rome, then the door is certainly open, but you have to take responsibility for that decision.
 
I disagree about “clearly” part of this sentence about the Byzantine liturgical texts. There is no clear statement: she died, rather we hear about dormition or her having having come to the end of her earthly life. References to “death” are about the phenomenon and are written as paradox - eg virgin after childbearing and alive after death; death could not hold her, etc. This is far from saying she died, because the the feast is clear about her being alive, united in body and soul, in heaven. The texts * clearly*, indeed explicitly, refer to her “deathless dormition”. Your fixation on her death misses the whole point of the feast. The tradition is that she died: the icon of the feast does depict the separation of her soul and body, but the idea that that separation - be it for days or seconds of femtoseconds - has some great significance mystifies me. Is there any such teaching in the liturgical texts. That is not the message of the feast.
It is an important message. When one reads through the canons appointed for the feast, for example, there is a rather clear commentary on the paschal nature of death, and that it is a passing over into life. One encounters the paschal mystery specifically through death and the embracing of death.
 
The liturgical texts used for the Feast of the Dormition clearly refer to the death of the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary. They also refer to her assumption after her death. I wonder why it was even necessary for Pope Pius IX to declare the Assumption a dogma of the Church since the Church had celebrated her falling asleep and assumption for centuries. St. John of Damascus wrote about the Assumption. The actual feast on August 15 was established in the East Emperor Maurice in around 600 and in the West by Pope Leo IV two centuries later. In Eastern Orthodoxy we adhere strictly to the principle Lex orandi, lex credendi which means the law of prayer is the law of belief. If our liturgical texts teach something like the Assumption, we do not need an official declaration that we believe in the Assumption.

Fr. John
Regarding the bold text above, typically a Pope or council will declare a dogma because the believe is being challenged.

Regarding V1, keep in mind that since the 1500s, many of the Catholic councils or Dogmas were created to combat the protestants breaking away from the Roman Rite.

I might be wrong, but I believe V1 was not designed to address a relationship between the Pope and returning Patriarchs. I would imagine that if majority of the East returned to the Pope there would be another council. It’s possible that V1 could remain in effect for the Roman Rite and would allow for the Pope to be a “tie breaker” in the East.

Addtionally, since the Pope is no longer Patriarch of the West, it could be possible to have an Pope from one of the other Rites if unification took place.
 
I wonder why it was even necessary for Pope Pius IX to declare the Assumption a dogma of the Church since the Church had celebrated her falling asleep and assumption for centuries.
I believe all if it, the IC and Assumption was in defense of the reaffirmation of the hypostatic union. Following the arguments of Luther then which he encountered with the EO, then on to Calvin. Thus to here today, all the slight variance seems to come back to Christs Nature.

academia.edu/185130/Humanity_of_Christ_in_Cyril_and_Maximus
 
However, according to present teaching of the RCC, the obstacle lies with the E. Orthodox Church which will not submit to RC teaching. Since both sides feel the same way about the other, and neither side is willing to compromise on its doctrines, I don’t see any chance of reunion unless each side accepts pluralism, such as they have in the Anglican Church of today. Of course, the argument can be made that pluralism in doctrine weakens the credibility of the Church.
I could respond that the obstacle to unity lies with the Catholic Church while refuses to return to the teaching of the ancient undivided Church. It is not that the Eastern Orthodox Church expects the RCC to submit to our doctrine. That is not the case. The case is that we want to see the RCCC return to what we both believed during the age of the Holy Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils. We can compromise on administration, in that we would not interfere in the internal affairs of the Patriarchate of Rome, but Rome would not interfere in the internal affairs of our autocephalous Churches. Therefore if the West wants to concentrate all authority within their own branch of the Church in the hands of the Pope, that would not be our business, but if we continue our conciliar system, it would not be any of the Pope’s business. We can recognize the Pope as holding a primacy of honor like that held today by Constantinople, but nothing more. We would go back to the older system of an Ecumenical Council as the highest authority in the Church.

Fr. John
 
It is an important message. When one reads through the canons appointed for the feast, for example, there is a rather clear commentary on the paschal nature of death, and that it is a passing over into life. One encounters the paschal mystery specifically through death and the embracing of death.
I just reread all of the propers for vespers and matins of the feast, and cannot find anything that supports your contention. In the canon, we say that she passed from earth to the mansions of heaven and to life without end. From earth, not from death; not even through death.

Christ’s death, and resurrection, are essential in the paschal mystery. Our resurrection is the fruit of this mystery. I am surprised to hear the idea that our death, or hers, has significance. I think the idea is just the opposite: death by Christ’s death is vanquished, and we share in the triumph over death. Hwncw we speak of the “deathless dormition”…
 
The liturgical texts used for the Feast of the Dormition clearly refer to the death of the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary. They also refer to her assumption after her death. I wonder why it was even necessary for Pope Pius IX to declare the Assumption a dogma of the Church since the Church had celebrated her falling asleep and assumption for centuries. St. John of Damascus wrote about the Assumption. The actual feast on August 15 was established in the East Emperor Maurice in around 600 and in the West by Pope Leo IV two centuries later. In Eastern Orthodoxy we adhere strictly to the principle Lex orandi, lex credendi which means the law of prayer is the law of belief. If our liturgical texts teach something like the Assumption, we do not need an official declaration that we believe in the Assumption.
While again, I think you stretch the meaning of “clear” beyond recognition, I appreciate this post. Many of the Orthodox posters here have argued that only the matters adjudicated at Ecumenical Councils are binding, and that expressions that are only in liturgy lie in the realm of theologoumena. This discussion often comes up in the context of teachings on the Theotokos.
 
I just reread all of the propers for vespers and matins of the feast, and cannot find anything that supports your contention. In the canon, we say that she passed from earth to the mansions of heaven and to life without end. From earth, not from death; not even through death.

Christ’s death, and resurrection, are essential in the paschal mystery. Our resurrection is the fruit of this mystery. I am surprised to hear the idea that our death, or hers, has significance. I think the idea is just the opposite: death by Christ’s death is vanquished, and we share in the triumph over death. Hwncw we speak of the “deathless dormition”…
There is no such thing as a deathless dormition because dormition means falling asleep, which is the term used in the East for dying. The title for the fast itself means the death of Our Lady.
The very first sticherion for the Vespers of the Falling Asleep of Our Lady reads, “O Marvelous wonder! The Font of life hath been laid in a grave, and the tomb hath become a ladder leading to heaven. Rejoice, O Gethsemane, the holy chamber of the Theotokos…”

Since Eastern Catholic use the same text as we do, it is apparent that Rome accepts the teaching that Our Lady died before her assumption.

Fr. John
 
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