"Orthodox in Communion with Rome"

[jam070406]

Alexander - Thank you for the description of Christianity in Ukraine, in particular as it relates to “Latinizations”. I had formerly believed that Latinizations had been imposed by Rome as a way to homonogenize Catholic churches, but I’ve come to realize that they’re more the result of other factors such as the ones you mentioned. A nation’s religious identiy is always complicated by political, historical, cultural, and other factors, and these can’t simply be done away with for the sake of an ideal. I think it’s important to remember that both eastern and western traditions are good, and adopting a tradition that is foreign to your church’s historical praxis is not necessarily bad. A good example of this is the rosary, which as you’ve demonstrated originated in the east, then became so prevalent in the west that many EO today don’t realize it’s origin is actually eastern, including myself until recently. In my experience in Eastern Orthodoxy, anything which is western is viewed with suspicion if not outright rejected. I suspect this is due to the power of western society which it exerts on the rest of the world, even if unintentionally, which must be consciously resisted if other traditions are to be maintained. One example of this was in my own small mission parish several years ago during Nativity. We had just received our own full time priest who had been with us for less than a year, and before that we were served by visiting priests supplied by the Archdiocese. We had begun a tradition since our founding of singing “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence”, to the tune found in Lutheran Worship, which was an old French melody. After the Nativity liturgy, our priest chewed out the chanters for singing this, and said that it was a western, Protestant hymn, that had no business being sung in an Orthodox parish. Now read the following history from Wikipedia:

“Let all mortal flesh keep silence is an ancient chant of Eucharistic devotion based on the verses taken from Habakkuk 2:20: ‘Let all the earth keep silence before Him’ taken from one of the books of the 12 minor prophets of Bible. The original was composed in Greek as a Cherubic Hymn for the Offertory of the Divine Liturgy of St James in the fourth Century AD, with local Churches adopting arrangements in Syriac.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_all_mortal_flesh_keep_silence

He rejected an ancient eastern hymn either because of ignorance about its origin or bias against the tune we used, I’m not sure which. Needless the say the chanters were embarassed and upset, and this incident probably ruined the night for them. I’m finding it increasing difficult to be open about any positive appraisal of western Christianity in Eastern Orthodoxy.

Just a few weeks ago the Priest at my Latin Parish, during his homily, spoke & taught about the Jesus Prayer and recommended the Way of the Pilgrim book.
Your post made me think of that.

 

[dcointin]

That’s what upsets me, Catholics are very positive about eastern traditions, but I don’t see that reciprocated with Eastern Orthodox. If I reposted this in an Orthodox forum, I guarantee you the response I would get is “what positive things in western Christianity?”

 

[JohnVIII]

I hope this isn’t considered hijacking the thread, but I have been asking myself a question lately and this post brought it to mind. So, I figured this might be best asked in here rather than a new thread. If it is hijacking, just post that and I’ll happily start a new thread.

I know Catholics are allowed by the Catholic Church to receive Communion in the Orthodox Churches in an extreme situation, but the Orthodox priest generally won’t provide Communion if they know the person is Catholic. But, will that same Orthodox priest generally allow an Eastern Catholic to receive Communion at their Orthodox Church in the same situation? Thanks!

It does happen! Perhaps in most cases it is “unofficial”, but the way the Eastern Orthodox mindset is that if someone communes unofficially, it becomes essentially official. In the canons there is a place where the question is asked, ‘What if an unbaptized person accidentally takes communion’, and the canonical answer is, ‘Baptize him, for he is called of God’.

 

[malphono]

That’s what upsets me, Catholics are very positive about eastern traditions, but I don’t see that reciprocated with Eastern Orthodox. If I reposted this in an Orthodox forum, I guarantee you the response I would get is “what positive things in western Christianity?”

FWIW, in my experience, EO seem to come two main flavors. There are the hard-line sycophants (who, regardless of which branch of Orthodoxy they hail from, seem to take their marching orders from MP), and in general seem to deride anything and everything non-Byzantine as a matter of course. And even with Byzantines, the very thought of EC’s sends them into apoplexy (never mind their own ventures into “Western Rite” etc). On the other side of the coin, there are those who are more attuned to the EP and are actually cooperative with the RC and OO, and even the EC and OC Churches.

The Antiochians seem to span the gamut, but over the years I’ve noticed that clergy born and raised in the Middle East are more likely to be in the EP camp, while those born in the US are far too often in the MP camp. The same would seem to be true for lay folk as well.

Just my :twocents: although I’ll probably get slammed for posting it.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I hope this isn’t considered hijacking the thread, but I have been asking myself a question lately and this post brought it to mind. So, I figured this might be best asked in here rather than a new thread. If it is hijacking, just post that and I’ll happily start a new thread.

I know Catholics are allowed by the Catholic Church to receive Communion in the Orthodox Churches in an extreme situation, but the Orthodox priest generally won’t provide Communion if they know the person is Catholic. But, will that same Orthodox priest generally allow an Eastern Catholic to receive Communion at their Orthodox Church in the same situation? Thanks!

One will hear of areas where EC’s and Orthodox live together in harmony and will allow intercommunion here and there - but that is the exception to the rule.

Eastern Catholics will sometimes be considered “worse” than Roman Catholics since we “masquerade” as Orthodox while holding to “heretical RC beliefs.”

Guilty as charged, I suppose!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Alexander - Thank you for the description of Christianity in Ukraine, in particular as it relates to “Latinizations”. I had formerly believed that Latinizations had been imposed by Rome as a way to homonogenize Catholic churches, but I’ve come to realize that they’re more the result of other factors such as the ones you mentioned. A nation’s religious identiy is always complicated by political, historical, cultural, and other factors, and these can’t simply be done away with for the sake of an ideal. I think it’s important to remember that both eastern and western traditions are good, and adopting a tradition that is foreign to your church’s historical praxis is not necessarily bad. A good example of this is the rosary, which as you’ve demonstrated originated in the east, then became so prevalent in the west that many EO today don’t realize it’s origin is actually eastern, including myself until recently. In my experience in Eastern Orthodoxy, anything which is western is viewed with suspicion if not outright rejected. I suspect this is due to the power of western society which it exerts on the rest of the world, even if unintentionally, which must be consciously resisted if other traditions are to be maintained. One example of this was in my own small mission parish several years ago during Nativity. We had just received our own full time priest who had been with us for less than a year, and before that we were served by visiting priests supplied by the Archdiocese. We had begun a tradition since our founding of singing “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence”, to the tune found in Lutheran Worship, which was an old French melody. After the Nativity liturgy, our priest chewed out the chanters for singing this, and said that it was a western, Protestant hymn, that had no business being sung in an Orthodox parish. Now read the following history from Wikipedia:

“Let all mortal flesh keep silence is an ancient chant of Eucharistic devotion based on the verses taken from Habakkuk 2:20: ‘Let all the earth keep silence before Him’ taken from one of the books of the 12 minor prophets of Bible. The original was composed in Greek as a Cherubic Hymn for the Offertory of the Divine Liturgy of St James in the fourth Century AD, with local Churches adopting arrangements in Syriac.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_all_mortal_flesh_keep_silence

He rejected an ancient eastern hymn either because of ignorance about its origin or bias against the tune we used, I’m not sure which. Needless the say the chanters were embarassed and upset, and this incident probably ruined the night for them. I’m finding it increasing difficult to be open about any positive appraisal of western Christianity in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I thank YOU sir for sharing your deep reflections and wisdom! I’ve nothing to add to what you’ve written, and you said it better than I ever could.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

That’s what upsets me, Catholics are very positive about eastern traditions, but I don’t see that reciprocated with Eastern Orthodox. If I reposted this in an Orthodox forum, I guarantee you the response I would get is “what positive things in western Christianity?”

I’m doing a lot of reading and study of the Western Orthodox Rite, especially in the Antiochian Orthodox Church and must say that the Antiochians never cease to amaze!

Even ROCOR has now adopted a Western Rite. Recently, I received a copy of the St Ambrose Prayerbook for Western Orthodox Christians and what it contains made me blink more than once.

They even have the Sacred Heart devotions there, the Western Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, the Rosary (arranged in a very doable format) and, as far as I could see, every conceivable western devotion.

There are also many Western Catholics who see absolutely nothing good in the Eastern Churches. I recently had an unpleasant experience in this regard with an RC professor of theology whom one would have thought would know better.

alex

 

[JohnVIII]

I’m doing a lot of reading and study of the Western Orthodox Rite, especially in the Antiochian Orthodox Church and must say that the Antiochians never cease to amaze!

Even ROCOR has now adopted a Western Rite. Recently, I received a copy of the St Ambrose Prayerbook for Western Orthodox Christians and what it contains made me blink more than once.

They even have the Sacred Heart devotions there, the Western Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, the Rosary (arranged in a very doable format) and, as far as I could see, every conceivable western devotion.

There are also many Western Catholics who see absolutely nothing good in the Eastern Churches. I recently had an unpleasant experience in this regard with an RC professor of theology whom one would have thought would know better.

alex

Did you know that St John Maximovich brought several Anglican Churches into ROCOR and allowed them to follow everything of their customs that they were used to, even including celebrating Easter according to the Western date (one exception only, they had to take “and the Son” out of the Creed)?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Did you know that St John Maximovich brought several Anglican Churches into ROCOR and allowed them to follow everything of their customs that they were used to, even including celebrating Easter according to the Western date (one exception only, they had to take “and the Son” out of the Creed)?

Yes - love that Holy Man! (Also heard that he loved the Gallican Rite and served it many times).

His ancestor, as you know, also St John Maximovych, Metropolitan of Siberia, translated the DL into Chinese, but never got across the border to serve it there. His descendant, St John Maximovych, Archbishop of Shanghai and San Francisco, did serve it in Chinese and there are still two Orthodox Churches in Shanghai.

He established the Orthodox Church in the Netherlands, France and Spain as well. The Western Orthodox venerate him as the “Patron of the Western Rite.”

He often went barefoot in France and one local RC priest once told his congregation during a sermon, "You want proof of God’s existence? Why should I give you any other proof than that of the living saint among us “St Jean nus pieds?” He also wore an extremely large icon of the Kursk-Root Mother of God on a strap around his neck. There was an Episcopal parish that went on pilgrimage to his shrine in San Francisco and actually applied to change the name of their parish to “St John Maximovych.”

My wife is a distant relative of his.

Alex

 

[JohnVIII]

Yes - love that Holy Man! (Also heard that he loved the Gallican Rite and served it many times).

His ancestor, as you know, also St John Maximovych, Metropolitan of Siberia, translated the DL into Chinese, but never got across the border to serve it there. His descendant, St John Maximovych, Archbishop of Shanghai and San Francisco, did serve it in Chinese and there are still two Orthodox Churches in Shanghai.

He established the Orthodox Church in the Netherlands, France and Spain as well. The Western Orthodox venerate him as the “Patron of the Western Rite.”

He often went barefoot in France and one local RC priest once told his congregation during a sermon, "You want proof of God’s existence? Why should I give you any other proof than that of the living saint among us “St Jean nus pieds?” He also wore an extremely large icon of the Kursk-Root Mother of God on a strap around his neck. There was an Episcopal parish that went on pilgrimage to his shrine in San Francisco and actually applied to change the name of their parish to “St John Maximovych.”

My wife is a distant relative of his.

Alex

Very COOL!

That Icon too, the “Kursk-Root Mother of God of the Sign” is the most amazing Icon I have ever seen! The spiritual fragrance that that comes off of it over-powered the incense used in the Russian Church that I saw it in! I have no doubt that it is a miracle working Icon!

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

That’s what upsets me, Catholics are very positive about eastern traditions, but I don’t see that reciprocated with Eastern Orthodox. If I reposted this in an Orthodox forum, I guarantee you the response I would get is “what positive things in western Christianity?”

Sadly, from personal experience, I agree with you.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

One will hear of areas where EC’s and Orthodox live together in harmony and will allow intercommunion here and there - but that is the exception to the rule.

Eastern Catholics will sometimes be considered “worse” than Roman Catholics since we “masquerade” as Orthodox while holding to “heretical RC beliefs.”

Guilty as charged, I suppose!

Alex

Me. too!!!

 

[Aramis]

I hope this isn’t considered hijacking the thread, but I have been asking myself a question lately and this post brought it to mind. So, I figured this might be best asked in here rather than a new thread. If it is hijacking, just post that and I’ll happily start a new thread.

I know Catholics are allowed by the Catholic Church to receive Communion in the Orthodox Churches in an extreme situation, but the Orthodox priest generally won’t provide Communion if they know the person is Catholic. But, will that same Orthodox priest generally allow an Eastern Catholic to receive Communion at their Orthodox Church in the same situation? Thanks!

Some, if approached quietly, out of earshot of the congregation, before vespers, will permit Eastern Catholics to confess following vespers, and then be communed the next morning. A few are less picky still, allowing any Catholics, and confession before Matins or Liturgy. But it is always done as an individual case-by-case.

It’s less likely in urban parishes with multiple clergy. In some villages in Alaska, it’s actually not uncommon… but still it is handled case by case.

 

[mardukm]

I have some questions:

What was the status of ROCOR from the perspective of the canonical EO before the reunion? Were they considered Orthodox or not?

What about Old Believers? Are they considered “Orthodox” by the canonical EO?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Ghosty]

He rejected an ancient eastern hymn either because of ignorance about its origin or bias against the tune we used, I’m not sure which. Needless the say the chanters were embarassed and upset, and this incident probably ruined the night for them. I’m finding it increasing difficult to be open about any positive appraisal of western Christianity in Eastern Orthodoxy.

This reminds me of the teaching of the Immaculate Conception, which originated in the East (St. Gregory Palamas was an ardent preacher of the teaching). It was actually rejected by many in the West specifically because it was an “Eastern devotion, foreign to our practice”. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote against the Immaculate Conception, and when his works were translated into Greek by the Patriarch of Constantinople, his view on this subject was one of the few singled out as an “error” of the otherwise great Western theologian (his rejection of the Immaculate Conception was lumped in with the Filioque, if that gives you an idea ).

I don’t intend any of this as an argument for or against the Immaculate Conception, just pointing out that strange things can happen when a tradition passes back and forth from East and West, and finally gets identified as “other” at a later date.

Peace and God bless!

 

[JohnVIII]

What was the status of ROCOR from the perspective of the canonical EO before the reunion? Were they considered Orthodox or not?

Originally, ROCOR was included in the diptychs of the Church of Constantinople, and remained so for over 30 years (the canonical time frame), but right after Met. Philaret of ROCOR wrote to the Patriarch of Constantinople his objections to the removal of the anathema against the Pope (known as the “Sorrowful Epistles”) no reply was given, but the ROCOR was removed from the diptychs. Today they will say that ROCOR (prior to the reunion) was uncanonical, but they will also say the their sacraments were all canonical.

What about Old Believers? Are they considered “Orthodox” by the canonical EO?

Mostly no, they are in schism. However, the ROCOR at some point (before the reunion) decided that the Russian Church was wrong for banning them and even asked for their forgiveness. As a result, their is a beautiful Old Believer “rite” in union with ROCOR in Erie, Pennsylvania. I’ve been there and experienced the most beautiful hierarchical service (done in English!) that I have ever seen! Since the official Church in Russia had not been a part of this reunion between ROCOR and some of the Old Believers I do not know what was decided about them when ROCOR joined the Moscow Patriarch. If anyone knows I would like to hear as well.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Me. too!!!

FYI, I used to write for an independent website, “Ukrainian Orthodoxy” but resigned completely from it when, as I’ve been told, the Ukrainian Orthodox church actually proscribed it, for reasons unknown to me.

One individual contacted me to tell me that I should convert to Orthodoxy before I would presume to write about it . . .

In fact, I wrote about what I always thought were traditions and saints shared by both Ukrainian Orthodox and Greek-Catholics. I would never comment on matters that were clearly outside my competence. Those were left to the priest-administrator. Also, the website states I’m Ukrainian Catholic at the outset.

I was also accused of “pretending to be Orthodox” (when did that happen?) and somehow promoting papal supremacy (I have never mentioned this even once over 500 + articles and when writing about the saints, stuck to only Orthodox saints).

Someone also accused me of having said that I would never take Communion in an Orthodox Church.

And that is true, I never would, since that would be breaking the Canons of the Orthodox Church.

When listing the Saints of Ukraine, I included all those Orthodox saints who lived, at one time or another, on Ukrainian territory but who may not have been ethnically Ukrainian themselves. That got me the label of being “pro-Russian.”

But since the website, as my “friends” told me, is now proscribed officially, there is nothing further to say.

In fact, that experience with my Orthodox friends left me with a very bad taste in my mouth and has definitely opened my eyes to a number of things.

Throughout my exchange with one fellow, epithets against the Pope were hurled at my direction as well.

I think I’ll stick only with the Catholic Church and the Pope from now on!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Originally, ROCOR was included in the diptychs of the Church of Constantinople, and remained so for over 30 years (the canonical time frame), but right after Met. Philaret of ROCOR wrote to the Patriarch of Constantinople his objections to the removal of the anathema against the Pope (known as the “Sorrowful Epistles”) no reply was given, but the ROCOR was removed from the diptychs. Today they will say that ROCOR (prior to the reunion) was uncanonical, but they will also say the their sacraments were all canonical.

Mostly no, they are in schism. However, the ROCOR at some point (before the reunion) decided that the Russian Church was wrong for banning them and even asked for their forgiveness. As a result, their is a beautiful Old Believer “rite” in union with ROCOR in Erie, Pennsylvania. I’ve been there and experienced the most beautiful hierarchical service (done in English!) that I have ever seen! Since the official Church in Russia had not been a part of this reunion between ROCOR and some of the Old Believers I do not know what was decided about them when ROCOR joined the Moscow Patriarch. If anyone knows I would like to hear as well.

Yes, the Russian Orthodox Church formally lifted the anathemas against the Old Believers in 1971, but long before, it allowed Old Rite parishes called the “United Believers” or “Edinovertsy” and there were actually quite a few of them prior to the Russian Revolution. (There were also a Greek-Catholic group of Old Believers whose parish priest was martyred by the Soviets - Metropolitan Andrew Sheptitsky was fascinated by their traditions and had a fully equipped Old Rite, Eastern Catholic chapel in Lviv - Blessed Leonid Fyodorov, the Russian Catholic martyr, served in the Old Rite as well).

During one of its Synods, the Russian Orthodox Church declared that it has two formal Rites within it which are equal in status and allows for parishes in either Rite which should live side by side in peace and harmony. Several Russian Martyr Saints who were “bi-ritual” and served in both Rites have been canonized as well.

The Orthodox Psalter to this day has an explanation of making the Sign of the Cross with three fingers, rather than two, but adds that the Church allows for either method, as long as their is unity etc.

The Old Rite Church of the Nativity you mention continues as such in union with the Patriarch of Moscow. They even have an icon of St Avvakum the Old Believer in their Church!

Other Old Believer Churches have canonized a number of their Old Rite saints and martyrs including St Ambrose of Belakrinitsa, St Joseph of Siberia, the 300+ monk-martyrs of Solovki (shot en masse for refusing to accept the Nikonian reform), Sts Constantine and Arcadius (monastics who wore chains on their bodies and who were killed in their underground hermitage by robbers) and others. The Russian Orthodox Church was, at one point, thinking about acknowledging the sanctity of St Avvakum, but nothing as yet. The Old Believers with priestly orders act very much like a Particular Orthodox Church, including canonizing their own saints, having their own form of the rosary, the leather Lestovka, and other traditions.

Alex

 

[GaryTaylor]

This reminds me of the teaching of the Immaculate Conception, which originated in the East (St. Gregory Palamas was an ardent preacher of the teaching). It was actually rejected by many in the West specifically because it was an “Eastern devotion, foreign to our practice”. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote against the Immaculate Conception, and when his works were translated into Greek by the Patriarch of Constantinople, his view on this subject was one of the few singled out as an “error” of the otherwise great Western theologian (his rejection of the Immaculate Conception was lumped in with the Filioque, if that gives you an idea ).

I don’t intend any of this as an argument for or against the Immaculate Conception, just pointing out that strange things can happen when a tradition passes back and forth from East and West, and finally gets identified as “other” at a later date.

Peace and God bless!

Yes, the recitation of prayer to the Blessed Mother which at a later date turned into the Rosary also. I’m sure there are many issues.

God Bless, GT

 

[dcointin]

FYI, I used to write for an independent website, “Ukrainian Orthodoxy” but resigned completely from it when, as I’ve been told, the Ukrainian Orthodox church actually proscribed it, for reasons unknown to me.

One individual contacted me to tell me that I should convert to Orthodoxy before I would presume to write about it . . .

In fact, I wrote about what I always thought were traditions and saints shared by both Ukrainian Orthodox and Greek-Catholics. I would never comment on matters that were clearly outside my competence. Those were left to the priest-administrator. Also, the website states I’m Ukrainian Catholic at the outset.

I was also accused of “pretending to be Orthodox” (when did that happen?) and somehow promoting papal supremacy (I have never mentioned this even once over 500 + articles and when writing about the saints, stuck to only Orthodox saints).

Someone also accused me of having said that I would never take Communion in an Orthodox Church.

And that is true, I never would, since that would be breaking the Canons of the Orthodox Church.

When listing the Saints of Ukraine, I included all those Orthodox saints who lived, at one time or another, on Ukrainian territory but who may not have been ethnically Ukrainian themselves. That got me the label of being “pro-Russian.”

But since the website, as my “friends” told me, is now proscribed officially, there is nothing further to say.

In fact, that experience with my Orthodox friends left me with a very bad taste in my mouth and has definitely opened my eyes to a number of things.

Throughout my exchange with one fellow, epithets against the Pope were hurled at my direction as well.

I think I’ll stick only with the Catholic Church and the Pope from now on!

Alex

The internet unfortunately is full of people like that, which is why I once had a priest say that he never participated in such discussions because it disturbed his soul and ability to pray. Fortunately, for the most part, this forum is much better than the average, and I for one am grateful to have you and everyone else here! I think Ukranian Christianity is particularly important for us in the dialogue between Catholicism and Orthodoxy because it has really lived in both worlds simultaneously and can show us the potential difficulties and how to overcome them. It shows that reunion is possible, despite the differences that sometimes seem so vast.