ORTHODOX-VATICAN - Bartholomew: With Francis, we invite all Christians to celebrate the first synod of Nicaea in 2025 [AN]

[spina1953]

Frankly, I’m glad I’m not the Patriarch as well. We aren’t in communion precisely because we believe the RCC teaches heresy. Until Rome repudiates her heresies we can’t even honestly say we hold the same faith. Were the Patriarch of Constantinople to accept unity with the RCC at this point the faithful ultimately won’t accept it. It’s also our job to protect and maintain the True Faith.

I understand that Orthodox and Catholic’s are not in communion. That being said. however, from all of the posts I’ve read by orthodox posters, most do not share your view or opinion that the Catholic Church teaches heresy. While they do not agree with all of the Catholic teachings, they do not make the claim that the Catholic Church teaches heresies.

 

[Wandile]

So do Catholics, but the difference is that we developed a dogma that the Pope has authority over the entire church, not as a bishop of bishops, but as a center of unity.

Makes a lot of sense given the practicality of organizing a church spanning billions of people and thousands of cultures and hundreds of countries. The ecumenical patriarch understands this, the Russians fear centralized authority because it’s a threat to thier power.

My biggest issue with the EO is that they confuse spirituality and dogmas. For many of the EO, using unleavened bread or enforcing celibacy is a stumbling block. Nothing less than a nearly complete byzanification of the Roman Rite would suffice. basically, fundamentalism is more of a problem with the EO than with Catholics IMO.

Post of the Month! How true this is!

 

[jimmy]

So do Catholics, but the difference is that we developed a dogma that the Pope has authority over the entire church, not as a bishop of bishops, but as a center of unity.

Makes a lot of sense given the practicality of organizing a church spanning billions of people and thousands of cultures and hundreds of countries. The ecumenical patriarch understands this, the Russians fear centralized authority because it’s a threat to thier power.

My biggest issue with the EO is that they confuse spirituality and dogmas. For many of the EO, using unleavened bread or enforcing celibacy is a stumbling block. Nothing less than a nearly complete byzanification of the Roman Rite would suffice. basically, fundamentalism is more of a problem with the EO than with Catholics IMO.

Interestingly enough, the thing that is most attractive to me about the Orthodox is their identification of theology with spirituality. Dogma is pointless, except in as much as it draws us closer to God.

The ecumenical patriarch doesn’t accept any of the dogmas regarding the bishop of Rome. They agree with the Russians on that issue.

 

[Nine_Two]

the Russians fear centralized authority because it’s a threat to thier power.

If you knew anything about the Russians and their history you would know this is not the reason.

This is a polemic coined by Catholics who can’t be bothered to understand the people they are dealing with. If you think this attitude of blaming what you don’t understand contributes to anything but disunity then you are mistaken.

 

[Shuttlepiper]

I’m sorry to step on anyone’s toes, but to put forth vision-as-doctrine is dangerous. The Church is by its nature conciliar, not visionary.

Visions as the basis for doctrine is fundamentally dangerous. Visions are ultimately subjective, both from the POV of the visionary(s) and those who believe them. Only a couple have been ‘accepted’ by the Church Catholic, the rest just merely acknowledged as a source of popular piety.

You know, I was away from from the Church for years, and what brought me back was the Scriptures - the Gospels and the historicity of the the Church, not Fatima or Lourdes.

Yes, I was raised Scottish Presbyterian, converted to the Church, fell away, and have, thanks be to God, returned.

Just trying to make a point that to look to visions/etc for a ‘prophecy’ or some kind of guiding light for Holy Mother Church is bad theology and just plain weird.

 

[Wandile]

As promised. I will provide more

Joaquim Merlin ~

Abbot Joachim Merlin (born circa 1480, died 1541) was a canon of Notre Dame; in 1529 he became the grand penitentiary after being imprisoned for two years in the court of Francis I, and he was exiled in Nantes for a year because of his opposition to the Lutherans. Upon his return to Paris in 1530 he became the vicar-general. The following lengthy prophecy of his is about the Great Pope:

"After many prolonged sufferings endured by Christians, and after a too great effusion of innocent blood, the Lord shall give peace and happiness to the desolated nations.** A remarkable pope will be seated on the pontifical throne, under the special protection of the angels. Holy and full of gentleness, he shall undo all wrong, he shall recover the states of the Church, and reunite the exiled temporal powers. He shall be revered by all people, and shall recover the kingdom of Jerusalem. As the only Pastor he shall reunite the Eastern to the Western Church, and thus only one faith will be in vigor. The sanctity of this beneficent Pontiff will be so great that the highest potentates shall bow before his presence. This holy man shall crush the arrogance of religious schism and heresy. All men will return to the primitive Church, and there shall be only one pastor, one law, one master — humble, modest, and fearing God.** The true God of the Jews, our Lord Jesus Christ, will make everything prosper beyond all human hope, because God alone can and will pour down on the wounds of humanity the oily balm of sweetness.

"The heavens proclaim the glory of God, and the faithful are in joy and happiness, because the Lord has vouchsafed to be merciful to them. He shall invite his elect to the banquet of the Lamb, where melodious canticles and harmonious concerts will be heard.

"The power of this Pontiff’s holiness will be so great as to be able to check the fury and impetuosity of threatening waves. Mountains shall be lowered before him, the sea shall be dried up, the dead shall be raised, the churches shall be reopened and altars erected.

"**It should be known that there will be two heads, one in the East, and the other in the West. This Pope shall break the weapons and scatter the fighting hordes. He will be the joy of God’s elect. This angelic pope will preach the gospel in every country. Through his zeal and solicitude the Greek Church shall be forever reunited to the Catholic Church. **

"Before, however, being firmly and solidly established in the Holy See, there will be innumerable wars and violent conflicts during which the sacred throne shall be shaken. But through the favor of divine clemency, moved by the prayers of the faithful, everything will succeed so well that they shall be able to sing hymns of thanksgiving to the glory of the Lord.

"**This holy Pope shall be both pastor and reformer. Through him the East and West shall be in everlasting concord. The city of Babylon shall then be the head and guide of the world. Rome, weakened in temporal power, shall forever preserve her spiritual dominion, and shall enjoy great peace. During these happy days the Angelic Pope shall be able to address to Heaven prayers full of sweetness. The dispersed nation shall also enjoy tranquillity. Six and a half years after this time the Pope will render his soul to God. The end of his days shall arrive in an arid province, situated between a river and a lake near the mountains… **

"At the beginning, in order these happy results, having need of a powerful temporal assistance, this holy Pontiff will ask the cooperation of the generous monarch of France. At that time a handsome monarch, a scion of King Pepin, will come as a pilgrim to witness the splendor of this glorious pontiff, whose name shall begin with “R.”… A temporal throne being vacant, the Pope shall place on it this king whose assistance he shall ask.

"When a monster shall appear in the sky, thou shalt find a ready escape towards the east, and after nine years thou shalt render thy soul to God.

"A man of remarkable sanctity will be his successor in the Pontifical chair. Through him God will work so many prodigies that all men shall revere him, and no person will dare to oppose his holy precepts. He shall not allow the clergy to have many benefices. He will induce them to live by tithes and offerings of the faithful. He shall interdict pomp in dress, and all immorality in dance and songs. He will preach the gospel in person, and exhort all honest ladies to appear in public without any ornament of gold or precious stones. After having occupied the Holy See for a long time he shall happily return to the Lord.

“His three immediate successors shall be men of exemplary holiness. One after the other will be models of virtue, and shall work miracles, confirming the teaching of their predecessors. Under their government the Church shall spread, and these Popes shall be called the Angelic Pastors.”

 

[Wandile]

St. Caesarius of Arles ~

Saint Caesarius (469-542) served as Archbishop of Arles from 502 to 542, and he was the papal vicar for Gaul and Spain at the same time. He is considered to be one of the truly relevant writers of the patristic age. In his book Mirabilis liber prophecias revelationes, he correctly predicted the French Revolution. He also gave this prophecy of the Great Pope and Grand Monarch:

"When the entire world, and in a special manner France, and in France more particularly the provinces of the north, of the east, and above all, that of Lorraine and Champagne, shall have been a prey to the greatest miseries and trials, then the provinces shall be succored by a prince who had been exiled in his youth, and who shall recover the crown of the lilies.

**"This prince shall extend his dominion over the entire universe. At the same time there will be a great Pope, who be most eminent in sanctity and most perfect in every quality. This Pope shall have with him the Great Monarch, a most virtuous man, who shall be a scion of the holy race of the French kings. This Great Monarch will assist the Pope in the reformation of the whole earth. Many princes and nations that are living in error and impiety shall be converted, and an admirable peace shall reign among men during many years, because the wrath of God shall be appeased through their repentance, penance, and good works. There will be one common law, only one faith, one baptism, one religion. All nations shall recognize the Holy See of Rome, and shall pay homage to the Pope. But after some considerable time fervor shall cool, iniquity shall abound, and moral corruption shall become worse than ever, which shall bring upon mankind the last and worst persecution of the Antichrist, and the end of the world. **

"There shall be a great change and as great an effusion of blood as in the time of the Gentiles: the Universal Church and the whole world shall deplore the ruin and capture of that most celebrated city, the capital and mistress of France; the altars and temples shall be destroyed; the holy virgins after experiencing many outrages, shall fly from their monasteries: the pastors of the Church shall abandon their pulpits and the Church itself be despoiled of all temporalities.

 

[Wandile]

Anna Taigi ~

The Italian Trinitarian tertiary and mystic Anna Maria Taigi was born in Sienna on 1769; she died in Rome in 1857. One day in the 1790s, a Servite priest who met her in the streets of Rome heard a voice within him telling him that she would be entrusted by God to his guidance and become a saint. Anna later went to that priest for confession after the birth her first child. Anna was the wife of a foul-tempered valet (Domenico Taigi), and raised their seven children and nursed her repulsively ill mother in a crowded house. Despite such circumstances, she was often in ecstasy and had prophetic gifts. A mystic sun surrounded by a crown of thorns appeared to her, and within it she foresaw distant events. However, she exercised her gift only when it was demanded by charity. She was consulted frequently by Popes Leo XII and Gregory XVI, and by Napolean Bonaparte’s mother. Here is her account of a vision she received concerning our future:

"God will ordain two punishments: One, in the form of wars, revolutions and other evils, will originate on earth; the other will be sent from Heaven. I see above the earth an intense darkness which will last for three days and nights. Nothing will be visible and the air will vomit pestilence, which will claim principally but not exclusively the enemies of religion. During these three days, artificial light will be impossible. Only sacred candles can be lighted and will afford light. During this alarm, the faithful should stay in their houses and recite the Rosary and give Misericords to God. He who out of curiosity opens his window to look out or leave his house will fall dead on the spot.

"On this terrible occasion so many of these wicked men, enemies of His Church, and of their God, shall be killed by this divine scourge, that their corpses around Rome will be as numerous as the fishes, which a recent inundation of the Tiber had carried into the city. All the enemies of the Church, secret as well as known, will perish over the whole earth during that universal darkness, with the exception of some few, whom God will soon after convert. The air shall be infested by demons, who will appear under all sorts of hideous forms.

**"After the three days of darkness, Saints Peter and Paul, having come down from heaven, will preach throughout the world and designate a new Pope. A great light will flash from their bodies and settle upon the cardinal, the future pontiff. Then Christianity will spread throughout the world. Whole nations will join the Church shortly before the reign of the Antichrist. These conversions will be amazing. Those who survive shall have to conduct themselves well. There shall be innumerable conversions of heretics, who will return to the bosom of the Church; all will note the edifying conduct of their lives, as well as that of other Catholics. Russia, England and China will come into the Church.
**

 

[Seraphim73]

So do Catholics, but the difference is that we developed a dogma…

They did indeed do that.

Makes a lot of sense given the practicality of organizing a church spanning billions of people and thousands of cultures and hundreds of countries.

How so? I don’t agree with that at all. It’s precisely because people are different that local authority is best suited for overseeing different peoples.

My biggest issue with the EO is that they confuse spirituality and dogmas.

And one of our biggest issues is the seeming disregard for spirituality among Catholics. The only way you can wind up completely destroying a centuries old liturgy at Vatican II that eventually leads to clown masses and all other kinds of silliness is if you have very little regard for lex orandi, lex credendi. The kind of wholesale destruction that occurred at Vatican II could never happen int he Orthodox Church. The people would not allow it.

 

[Saints_Alive]

Along these lines, does anyone believe that the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, would be willing to accept the title of “First Among Equals” for the sake of reunification? Just asking.

I believe Pope Francis would. And I would support it 100%.

If this world is to be what I believe Our Father in Heaven wants it to be, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches must unite as one.

jmo

 

[Seraphim73]

I believe Pope Francis would. And I would support it 100%.

If this world is to be what I believe Our Father in Heaven wants it to be, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches must unite as one.

jmo

I don’t see how he can. The immediate and episcopal jurisdiction of the pope over the entire Church is a dogma of the Catholic faith.

 

[PatrickC]

Anna Taigi ~

The Italian Trinitarian tertiary and mystic Anna Maria Taigi was born in Sienna on 1769; she died in Rome in 1857. One day in the 1790s, a Servite priest who met her in the streets of Rome heard a voice within him telling him that she would be entrusted by God to his guidance and become a saint. Anna later went to that priest for confession after the birth her first child. Anna was the wife of a foul-tempered valet (Domenico Taigi), and raised their seven children and nursed her repulsively ill mother in a crowded house. Despite such circumstances, she was often in ecstasy and had prophetic gifts. A mystic sun surrounded by a crown of thorns appeared to her, and within it she foresaw distant events. However, she exercised her gift only when it was demanded by charity. She was consulted frequently by Popes Leo XII and Gregory XVI, and by Napolean Bonaparte’s mother. Here is her account of a vision she received concerning our future:

I have no regard for Roman Catholic visions. There are plenty in the Orthodox Church that say nothing of the sort. We could play “dueling visions”, but the whole attitude and way of thinking that seeks after these kind of things instead of simply trying to live the faith (which is difficult enough) leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know Catholics who are always looking for some new visionary or promise or some other thing as a diversion. I never see it bring any spiritual benefit, just cultish adherence and distrust of the hierarchy. I look at the Catholic Church and see an institution that has discarded the majority of its culture and barely has the ability to put a lid on a few heretical American nuns or stand up to pro abortion politicians. It appears to have become very much like it’s protestant offspring. What about that is supposed to tempt us to reunite is beyond me. It seems to me, looking at history, that the Pope has been anything But a source of unity.

 

[josie_L]

I have no regard for Roman Catholic visions. There are plenty in the Orthodox Church that say nothing of the sort. We could play “dueling visions”, but the whole attitude and way of thinking that seeks after these kind of things instead of simply trying to live the faith (which is difficult enough) leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know Catholics who are always looking for some new visionary or promise or some other thing as a diversion. I never see it bring any spiritual benefit, just cultish adherence and distrust of the hierarchy. I look at the Catholic Church and see an institution that has discarded the majority of its culture and barely has the ability to put a lid on a few heretical American nuns or stand up to pro abortion politicians. It appears to have become very much like it’s protestant offspring. What about that is supposed to tempt us to reunite is beyond me. It seems to me, looking at history, that the Pope has been anything But a source of unity.

I won’t bother responding to most of your post (don’t care to as it’s all subjective), but the reason Wandile is posting the visions in the first place was because a few of us vocalized our interests in learning about them, in other words, he was just being NICE.

 

[josie_L]

Anna Taigi ~

The Italian Trinitarian tertiary and mystic Anna Maria Taigi was born in Sienna on 1769; she died in Rome in 1857. One day in the 1790s, a Servite priest who met her in the streets of Rome heard a voice within him telling him that she would be entrusted by God to his guidance and become a saint. Anna later went to that priest for confession after the birth her first child. Anna was the wife of a foul-tempered valet (Domenico Taigi), and raised their seven children and nursed her repulsively ill mother in a crowded house. Despite such circumstances, she was often in ecstasy and had prophetic gifts. A mystic sun surrounded by a crown of thorns appeared to her, and within it she foresaw distant events. However, she exercised her gift only when it was demanded by charity. She was consulted frequently by Popes Leo XII and Gregory XVI, and by Napolean Bonaparte’s mother. Here is her account of a vision she received concerning our future:

Thank you, Wandile.

 

[dzheremi]

:yawn:

Indeed. Wake me up/thaw me out for the commemoration of the repudiation of Chalcedon in 2451…

 

[Saints_Alive]

I don’t see how he can. The immediate and episcopal jurisdiction of the pope over the entire Church is a dogma of the Catholic faith.

noted

 

[Holly3278]

The Roman Catholic Church does not officially teach heresy and neither has any pontiff. To hear someone say that they do or have is greatly offensive to me.

 

[malphono]

Indeed. Wake me up/thaw me out for the commemoration of the repudiation of Chalcedon in 2451…

So noted. Maybe we can share an infusion of some tana leaves …

 

[GaryTaylor]

We need more bonding and less plans for doctrinal world establishment.

We should plan a yearly social meeting.

We do need more social interaction? Maybe everyone is just not suppose to be together, you think? Division in unity is a bad thing?

 

[PatrickC]

The Roman Catholic Church does not officially teach heresy and neither has any pontiff. To hear someone say that they do or have is greatly offensive to me.

I’m sorry if it offends you. I don’t mean to cause offense. Sometimes it can’t be helped.