Orthodox Vs. Catholic

[Alexius]

This has to do with the traducian soul theory, doesn’t it? What do the Orthodox think? Do they say we inherit the guilt of Adam?

I don’t think the Orthodox have a unified view on this point (neither did the Church Fathers). The Catholic Church has settled on Creationism. This makes my head spin…When I spoke of spiritual and bodily death, I simply mean that the body has certain passions and inclinations to sin, it gets sick, we have to labor, there is pain–because of sin. This is human nature. The soul is not evil for it was created good (as far as Creationist theory is concerned), but it is simply without the favor (grace) of GOD since the Fall. We share in Adam’s sin, but we are not personally responsible (I guess this is a quasi-guilt). I know this is not quite detailed as far as the whole Traducian vs. Creationist, but it is really late…

Yes, some Protestants I know also say that sin is past on patrilinially, through the man. I often wondered how they arrived at this conclusion.

Based on Traducian teaching…The male passes on the guilt/nature through procreation. This is why many reject Mary’s Immaculate Conception–because they believe that without an earthly father to pass on the inheritance, Christ was free from sin.

How does it differ from the common notion?

Well, simply put, it is “guilt” by way of our common human nature. We all share the same nature, the same sinful nature.

Catholics, I guess, say that physical death and disease, as well as spiritual death, are the consequences of Original Sin. They also say that this is why animals fight/die/have predatory instincts-- they suffer too, because Adam, their caretaker sinned.

Yes, all of creation has been affected because GOD cursed the ground. This is also Orthodox teaching. Furthermore, we suffer from passions, necessity to labor for food and work, pain, etc.

That’s good. I hope Holy Orthodoxy and Holy Catholicism will one day re-unite.

I hope so. It really comes down to the Bishop of Rome and his position. The way the world is heading, unity is necessary. I guess if they do, it will make an easier decision for you

Good advice. The nearest Orthodox church is 45 miles away.

Just curious, but, what were you raised and how’d you join the Holy Orthodox Church?

Born Roman Catholic, then dad died. My mom got re-married and raised me in a bunch of Protestant churches (Baptist, Presbyterian, non-Denom.). I started leaning Catholic in beginning of high school, began attending Orthodox churches as soon as I was old enough to drive, studied other religions, read Qur’an in tenth grade, made private Shahadah, almost became a Sunni Muslim (officially), went back to Eastern Christianity, now attending a Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. It’s been fun

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Wesley7]

minus - the vs.

 

[Diamantina]

*Quote:
Catholics, I guess, say that physical death and disease, as well as spiritual death, are the consequences of Original Sin. They also say that this is why animals fight/die/have predatory instincts-- they suffer too, because Adam, their caretaker sinned.

Yes, all of creation has been affected because GOD cursed the ground. This is also Orthodox teaching. Furthermore, we suffer from passions, necessity to labor for food and work, pain, etc.*

One thing that confuses me is that animals were dying – even becoming extinct – long before God made Adam and Eve (whom I see as metaphors for the first hominids who had an inkling of the Divine and could be seen as having free will). It would seem that God “cursed” the ground eons before people even existed. Or is it that those early hominids were the first to see the earth as under the rule of death, because they were the first to sin (i.e., had enough free will for their actions to be seen as sin and not as instinct)?

 

[Peter_J]

Then can I say, “One is the complete true Church, but the other is a defective part of that same Church.” Or would this still compromise unicity?

Sounds good to me.

What’s your opinion? Are you Catholic or Orthodox or niether?

Catholic.

 

[TriuneUnity]

*Quote:
Catholics, I guess, say that physical death and disease, as well as spiritual death, are the consequences of Original Sin. They also say that this is why animals fight/die/have predatory instincts-- they suffer too, because Adam, their caretaker sinned.

Yes, all of creation has been affected because GOD cursed the ground. This is also Orthodox teaching. Furthermore, we suffer from passions, necessity to labor for food and work, pain, etc.*

One thing that confuses me is that animals were dying – even becoming extinct – long before God made Adam and Eve (whom I see as metaphors for the first hominids who had an inkling of the Divine and could be seen as having free will). It would seem that God “cursed” the ground eons before people even existed. Or is it that those early hominids were the first to see the earth as under the rule of death, because they were the first to sin (i.e., had enough free will for their actions to be seen as sin and not as instinct)?

This is only true if you adhere to the theory of evolution.

 

[Diamantina]

This is only true if you adhere to the theory of evolution.

Of course I adhere to the theory of evolution! The theory of evolution is not necessarily atheistic. The Bible is not a science textbook: it was written to reveal what God wants us to know about our salvation. When I was in high school, I came to the belief that God created evolution. So, since I believe in the theory of evolution, why were animals dying and becoming extinct (the ground being “cursed”, if you will) long before the first hominids (who can be labelled “Adam and Eve”) to have free will and to be capable of good and evil were born?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Of course I adhere to the theory of evolution! The theory of evolution is not necessarily atheistic. The Bible is not a science textbook: it was written to reveal what God wants us to know about our salvation. When I was in high school, I came to the belief that God created evolution. So, since I believe in the theory of evolution, why were animals dying and becoming extinct (the ground being “cursed”, if you will) long before the first hominids (who can be labelled “Adam and Eve”) to have free will and to be capable of good and evil were born?

Theistic evolution is incompatible with the biblical record of creation for the problems you yourself enumerated. It contradicts the concept of sin being the cause of death and decay. Evolution relies on death and decay in order for it to work.

Do not make God and His revelation subject to scientific inquiry.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I don’t see any division in the mystical aspects of the body of Christ in Catholicism either East or West. What I do see, is that the West has always been attacked for her doctrines. Thus defining them in time to those who came against them. This battle has been going on since the first century. The Pope has always taken the lead to refute christian heresy or explain and reveal Traditional Christian belief handed down to her from the apostles. While the West battles theological issues with those who protest the Christian faith, the East have had to battle just for their existance in the East. Now the West has had their share of many martyrs to keep the faith handed down to today.

My point is; here lyes the balance; It is good that the East remain in her orthodoxy, this confirms that they will not or cannot change what was handed down to them from the apostles, the Chair of Peter from the West, exists to keep the balance. The West is balanced from the East because she keeps the West from never forgetting her root. The difference is When Rome (West) defends the Catholic faith by explaining them in the language and thinking of the present age to understand them, The East by her pedigree checks the definition this is a good balance. The East helps the West to make slow changes to those things that are subject to change for example languages, cultures and societies ect. The West makes these new ages available to the Gospel of Jesus inorder for them to comprehend them. In other words there are two different fronts of the spiritual battle of Christianity, One battles just to exist, the other battles to defend and reveal the Gospel of Jesus to all changes of the ages, but never changing the Orthodox teachings handed down to her from Jesus and the apostles.

It makes sense that the East refuses to accept the revealed doctrinal definitions revealed to the new world by the West. For they do not live by the same language and thoughts from the new world. As the posters above have indicated, splitting hairs over defined terms, does not change the doctrinal belief, but reveals them to a people that can understand them and come to believe.
Today we are in that first century scene when Paul is on his way to visit Peter and discuss entry of the Gentiles into the body of Jesus Christ. The East (Paul) has not arrived yet to visit West (Peter) and confirm the belief and settle the Matter with Peter present day Pope.

 

[Matariel]

I don’t think the Orthodox have a unified view on this point (neither did the Church Fathers). The Catholic Church has settled on Creationism. This makes my head spin…When I spoke of spiritual and bodily death, I simply mean that the body has certain passions and inclinations to sin, it gets sick, we have to labor, there is pain–because of sin. This is human nature. The soul is not evil for it was created good (as far as Creationist theory is concerned), but it is simply without the favor (grace) of GOD since the Fall. We share in Adam’s sin, but we are not personally responsible (I guess this is a quasi-guilt). I know this is not quite detailed as far as the whole Traducian vs. Creationist, but it is really late…

This is a very good explanation of this view. Thanks.

Based on Traducian teaching…The male passes on the guilt/nature through procreation. This is why many reject Mary’s Immaculate Conception–because they believe that without an earthly father to pass on the inheritance, Christ was free from sin.

Oh, I get it… Is this why the Catholic Church tends to favour a Creationist/non-Traducian view, because it calls into question the Immaculate Conception? Isn’t it true that Orthodox believe holy Mary lived without actual sin, at least?

Well, simply put, it is “guilt” by way of our common human nature. We all share the same nature, the same sinful nature.

You must’ve studied this a lot. You know this well.

Yes, all of creation has been affected because GOD cursed the ground. This is also Orthodox teaching. Furthermore, we suffer from passions, necessity to labor for food and work, pain, etc.

At least Holy Orthodoxy and Holy Catholicism agree on this, as well as numerous other things.

I hope so. It really comes down to the Bishop of Rome and his position. The way the world is heading, unity is necessary. I guess if they do, it will make an easier decision for you

Yeah, it would! I think it is quite necessary. That would be amazing, especially if it happened in my lifetime. With Holy Orthodoxy and Holy Catholicism united, we’d be able to get so much evangelization and humanitarian work done, as well as being a louder, united voice against modernism and secularism, even the secularism and anti-sacramentalism which is invading the Protestant communities.

Born Roman Catholic, then dad died. My mom got re-married and raised me in a bunch of Protestant churches (Baptist, Presbyterian, non-Denom.). I started leaning Catholic in beginning of high school, began attending Orthodox churches as soon as I was old enough to drive, studied other religions, read Qur’an in tenth grade, made private Shahadah, almost became a Sunni Muslim (officially), went back to Eastern Christianity, now attending a Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. It’s been fun

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

How interesting. Mine was born Wesleyan, then we became Baptists for a short time, then Nazarenes, then independent, then when I was old enough to drive I became Anglican (Traditional, conservative). My parents are Nazarene now. My sister was also Old-Order Amish for 4 years.

I’m glad you left Islam! You make a great Orthodox believer, and you explain Holy Orthodoxy’s positions well. Keep up the good work.

 

[Matariel]

Of course I adhere to the theory of evolution! The theory of evolution is not necessarily atheistic. The Bible is not a science textbook: it was written to reveal what God wants us to know about our salvation. When I was in high school, I came to the belief that God created evolution. So, since I believe in the theory of evolution, why were animals dying and becoming extinct (the ground being “cursed”, if you will) long before the first hominids (who can be labelled “Adam and Eve”) to have free will and to be capable of good and evil were born?

This is why I think the past (i.e., the history of humanity and Creation) is ultimately unknowable. I’m not sure if I believe in macro-evolution, or transformation of one species to another. I do not think that Adam and Eve were “hominids”. I think they were a completely unique creation, and were just as normal men are today.

It’s just unknowable.

Alexius, Buddy List?

 

[Matariel]

Theistic evolution is incompatible with the biblical record of creation for the problems you yourself enumerated. It contradicts the concept of sin being the cause of death and decay. Evolution relies on death and decay in order for it to work.

Do not make God and His revelation subject to scientific inquiry.

I kind of have to agree with Triune on this one. It doesn’t make sense that there would be death and suffering before Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, Why would there be suffering in as sinless world? There wouldn’t be any!

From a Catholic viewpoint, the Church says it is permissible to hold a Theistic Macro-Evolutionist view, or an Old-Earth Creationist one, or even a Young-Earth Creationist view. As a Catholic you can adhere to any, as most people think it’s unknowable.

I think the Orthodox have the same view…?

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t see any division in the mystical aspects of the body of Christ in Catholicism either East or West. What I do see, is that the West has always been attacked for her doctrines. Thus defining them in time to those who came against them.

This reminds me of the old “The Latin Rite is the Mother and teacher of all rites”. (We had a poll about that in the “Eastern Catholicism” forum. It’s long since closed, but you can see the results here.)

 

[TriuneUnity]

I kind of have to agree with Triune on this one. It doesn’t make sense that there would be death and suffering before Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, Why would there be suffering in as sinless world? There wouldn’t be any!

From a Catholic viewpoint, the Church says it is permissible to hold a Theistic Macro-Evolutionist view, or an Old-Earth Creationist one, or even a Young-Earth Creationist view. As a Catholic you can adhere to any, as most people think it’s unknowable.

I think the Orthodox have the same view…?

Any form of macro-evolution must be rejected at the risk of contradicting what God has revealed about creation. It is a shame that the Roman Church says it is permissible to hold this view. Hopefully a future Pope changes that.

 

[Matariel]

Any form of macro-evolution must be rejected at the risk of contradicting what God has revealed about creation. It is a shame that the Roman Church says it is permissible to hold this view. Hopefully a future Pope changes that.

I tend to agree. But what do we say to the scientists?

 

[TriuneUnity]

I tend to agree. But what do we say to the scientists?

Repent and believe the Gospel.

 

[TriuneUnity]

This reminds me of the old “The Latin Rite is the Mother and teacher of all rites”. (We had a poll about that in the “Eastern Catholicism” forum. It’s long since closed, but you can see the results here.)

Those poll results are interesting. Frankly, I was never too enamored of the Eastern liturgy. It’s a little over the top. The Latin form of the liturgy just makes a lot more sense.

Maybe cause the West is over-rational

 

[Nicholas82]

Those poll results are interesting. Frankly, I was never too enamored of the Eastern liturgy. It’s a little over the top. The Latin form of the liturgy just makes a lot more sense.

Maybe cause the West is over-rational

I’m curious to know what you mean in saying the Latin Mass ‘makes more sense’?

 

[Nicholas82]

Repent and believe the Gospel.

All scientists need to repent and believe in the Gospel or just those who believe in evolution???

 

[TriuneUnity]

I’m curious to know what you mean in saying the Latin Mass ‘makes more sense’?

The theology behind what is done in the rubrics; the form, etc.

 

[Matariel]

The theology behind what is done in the rubrics; the form, etc.

I agree with Triune on this one.

And about the scientists.

Do you think they intentionally lie though?