Orthodox

[rcwitness]

One thing that hasn’t yet been stated but which I believe is crucial is that Orthodoxy is, first and foremost, concerned with what leads an individual to commit certain sins. Sins are the visible symptom of a deeper illness and it should be the priority of an individual with guidance from their parish priest or spiritual father to heal this deeper illness. This distinguishes Orthodox Christianity from other Christian perspectives that focus more on the actions themselves rather than on what it is that makes an individual choose those actions.

Do you have a resource to help show the Orthodox’s teaching about this? And maybe give examples of what you mean by “a deeper illness” which causes us to sin?

I am not sure I understand how this is concept and practice is different from most all Christianity. When we learn in the Catechism what sin is, we can see that sin has its deep seated roots, underneath the ways it is manifested. I think many Catholic priests do try to bring out the source of people’s struggles when counseling them.

1849Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

1850Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

1851 It is precisely in the Passion, when the mercy of Christ is about to vanquish it, that sin most clearly manifests its violence and its many forms: unbelief, murderous hatred, shunning and mockery by the leaders and the people, Pilate’s cowardice and the cruelty of the soldiers, Judas’ betrayal - so bitter to Jesus, Peter’s denial and the disciples’ flight. However, at the very hour of darkness, the hour of the prince of this world,126 the sacrifice of Christ secretly becomes the source from which the forgiveness of our sins will pour forth inexhaustibly.

I agree with what you are expressing. And I think it means asking ourselves, “Why, am I doing this?” And this can probably be helpful in overcoming sins. We have a human nature that bends toward our fleshly desires, not to God’s. “Our spirit is willing but flesh is weak”.

The question becomes, what am I doing to overcome this? We know that we need God’s grace, but how to we get it and hold on to it? The answer is Baptism, contrition, Confession, prayer, and perseverance. In short, receiving Eucharist in a worthy manner. Doing what we are asked to do by the Spirit out of love of God and neighbor. When we sin, we are opposed to this love and His Spirit. When we sin, we are looking to satisfy and gratify the flesh.

 

[Jake_Parker]

I have always thought the Orthodox Church’s teaching on Heaven and Hell made the most sense, even when I was a [evangelical/calvinist] Protestant.

One thing that really intrigues me is how so many Protestants are huge supporters of C.S. Lewis, even though he has some very Orthodox/Catholic beliefs (which makes sense considering he was an Anglican). Yet they are quick to condemn Catholicism and Orthodoxy in general.

Very strange indeed. Although, if you take the time to listen to or talk with these Protestants, you quickly discover most have been very misinformed. That is the reason they reject Catholic/Orthodox teaching. I was one of them a few years ago.

Great quote from the OCA website:
. . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises).

 

[PatrickC]

I have always thought the Orthodox Church’s teaching on Heaven and Hell made the most sense, even when I was a [evangelical/calvinist] Protestant.

One thing that really intrigues me is how so many Protestants are huge supporters of C.S. Lewis, even though he has some very Orthodox/Catholic beliefs (which makes sense considering he was an Anglican). Yet they are quick to condemn Catholicism and Orthodoxy in general.

Very strange indeed. Although, if you take the time to listen to or talk with these Protestants, you quickly discover most have been very misinformed. That is the reason they reject Catholic/Orthodox teaching. I was one of them a few years ago.

Great quote from the OCA website:
. . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises).

I know this really isn’t a good analogy but it’s always struck me as a small taste of hell. Ever lied to a loved one (a parent perhaps) saying you did a good or the right thing when you know you didn’t and they praise you for it and say that they’re proud of you? That’s about the most gut wrenching feeling I’ve ever had. It almost actually burns. The idea of a love so undeserved burning in my chest gives me more pause than any idea of being tortured by demons with claws or anything of that medieval sort.

 

[Rohzek]

Do you have a resource to help show the Orthodox’s teaching about this? And maybe give examples of what you mean by “a deeper illness” which causes us to sin?

I am not sure I understand how this is concept and practice is different from most all Christianity. When we learn in the Catechism what sin is, we can see that sin has its deep seated roots, underneath the ways it is manifested. I think many Catholic priests do try to bring out the source of people’s struggles when counseling them.

A good Orthodox resource on this is Timothy Ware’s The Orthodox Church. In all my years as a Catholic, I’ve had only one Catholic priest do what you describe. The others never did it. In Orthodoxy, it just seems to be more common.