Orthodoxy and Catholicism

[Matariel]

I’ve just never fully understood the Orthodox claim (but I have tremendous respect for them, don’t get me wrong). But how can they claim to be the Church when they are a collection of separate churches divided by national lines? Don’t get me wrong, I want to see the Orthodox churches unite with the Catholic Church, I just don’t know why they don’t see that division is not good?

Hope this helps.

 

[Peter_J]

Yeah, St. Peter was a bit of a Sanguine, and always seemed to find a way to put his foot in his mouth. And yet God still used him to be the first Bishop of Rome and the Rock upon which the Church is built.

And the first Bishop of Antioch. And the first Pope.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Prayer and Fasting may take away those scales which are blinding you. You’re welcome to join us for the Nativity Fast which recently started: No wine, no olive oil, no meat or meat products, no fish, no dairy and no dairy products. The Fast ends on the Nativity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That’s even stricter than most Russian’s fast - they use (olive) oil, fish, and on weekends also wine, during the Nativity Fast.

Do you celebrate Nativity on Dec 25 (New Calendar) or Jan 7 (Old Calendar)? If you celebrate according to NC, what would you say to those OC Churches (primarily Russian but also some Greek, etc) that regard the NC as not truly Orthodox? And if you celebrate according to OC, what would you say about the decision of the Patriarch of Constantinople to transition to the NC in the early 20th century - do you accuse him of heresy?

Your earlier post about the Holy Fire is appreciated. I shall watch the youtube videos as soon as I get to a real computer (not a cellphone). Once I did an internet search about eyewitness accounts of Holy Fire and came away convinced that the miracle is real - why would 5-6 different persons post fake accounts on the internet, claiming they saw the miracle with their own eyes? I learned this miracle is traced back to the 4th century and possibly even earlier; the Roman Catholic Church accepted it during the first milennium but later rejected it around the 13-14th century and later and the Franciscan friars in the Holy Land mocked it as a fraud. I believe the Holy Fire is a prime example of something happening in the Orthodox Church that we Catholics should take a second look at, and ask: why did we accept it first, and reject it later? And if the miracle is true and still happening every year, why don’t we pay attention to it? What is God telling/teaching us with this miracle?

Of course, I would similarly appreciate if our Orthodox brethren would take a second look at the apparition of Theotokos and her message of Fatima (Portugal), 1917: that Russia will spread her errors around the world, provoking persecutions of the Church. To save Russia, God will ask the Holy Father (=Pope) to consecrate her to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, in union with the Bishops. In addition, the faithful are being asked to practice the devotion of “5 First Saturdays of reparation” for Holy Mary, in reparation for the blasphemies with which men offend her, including blasphemies against her Immaculate Conception. In the end, Mary’s Immaculate Heart will triumph, and Russia will be converted.

Regarding the above message of Fatima, this is what I ask: why did God tell the Pope to Consecrate Russia to Mary’s Immaculate Heart? Why not tell this to the Patriarch of Moscow, if the Pope is a supposed heretic who has fallen away from true orthodoxy, and has no jurisdiction over Russia? Why did Theotokos appear in Catholic Portugal with this message, to Catholic children, causing the devotion of “5 First Saturdays of Reparation” to spread throughout the Catholic World, so that we have millions of Catholics praying for the conversion of a historically Orthodox country that is Russia? Why didn’t Theotokos appear in an Orthodox country such as Greece or Romania, causing this devotion to spread among the world’s Orthodox population? To be more correct, after Holy Mary’s apparition in 1917 to the 3 children of Fatima, Jesus appeared twice around 1925-1926 to Sister Lucia (the surviving one of the three), and insisted that this devotion of reparation be spread. I really hope our Orthodox brethren of good will and a humble heart will give serious consideration to the apparitions and message of Fatima, just as I (although I’m a sinner) and those Catholics who are friends of the Orthodox take the miracle of the Holy Fire and its message seriously.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Pope JP-II really wanted to unify the date of Pascha (Easter) and B16 continues to walk the same path. In fact, in Damascus, Syria, where the relations between Orthodox and Catholics are very good, Easter is being celebrated on the same day since 2003, and the Pope (JP-II) agreed that the Catholic celebration be held according to the Orthodox schedule, since there are more Orthodox than Catholic Christians there. This is not a matter of pride or “I will go halfway if you go halfway” for us Catholics and for our Popes - both JP-II and B16 were/are deeply committed to mending the old wounds and improving relations with the Orthodox Churches. We Catholics are open to any solution and really want to celebrate Pascha on the same day with the Orthodox, and we are willing to move the date to the same date as the Orthodox celebrate it, because this is a matter of arbitrary agreement, unlike the dogmas which are non-negotiable. I know that the World Council of Churches is working on a recommendation regarding the date of Pascha, and Catholic officials stated that the Catholic Church will accept that recommendation whatever it may be. Apparently there are some disagreements between the New Calendar and Old Calendar Orthodox Churches in the WCC, but once they agree with each other, the Catholic Church will accept their proposed solution.

On a more humorous note: I hope nobody on this forum will start teaching us Catholics that “Easter” is a pagan celebration coming from the pagan god Eostar, and that it should always be called “Pascha” but never “Easter”, I heard this lesson one too many times already…

 

[rad]

Of course, I would similarly appreciate if our Orthodox brethren would take a second look at the apparition of Theotokos and her message of Fatima (Portugal), 1917: that Russia will spread her errors around the world, provoking persecutions of the Church. To save Russia, God will ask the Holy Father (=Pope) to consecrate her to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, in union with the Bishops. In addition, the faithful are being asked to practice the devotion of “5 First Saturdays of reparation” for Holy Mary, in reparation for the blasphemies with which men offend her, including blasphemies against her Immaculate Conception. In the end, Mary’s Immaculate Heart will triumph, and Russia will be converted.

Regarding the above message of Fatima, this is what I ask: why did God tell the Pope to Consecrate Russia to Mary’s Immaculate Heart? Why not tell this to the Patriarch of Moscow, if the Pope is a supposed heretic who has fallen away from true orthodoxy, and has no jurisdiction over Russia? Why did Theotokos appear in Catholic Portugal with this message, to Catholic children, causing the devotion of “5 First Saturdays of Reparation” to spread throughout the Catholic World, so that we have millions of Catholics praying for the conversion of a historically Orthodox country that is Russia? Why didn’t Theotokos appear in an Orthodox country such as Greece or Romania, causing this devotion to spread among the world’s Orthodox population? To be more correct, after Holy Mary’s apparition in 1917 to the 3 children of Fatima, Jesus appeared twice around 1925-1926 to Sister Lucia (the surviving one of the three), and insisted that this devotion of reparation be spread. I really hope our Orthodox brethren of good will and a humble heart will give serious consideration to the apparitions and message of Fatima, just as I (although I’m a sinner) and those Catholics who are friends of the Orthodox take the miracle of the Holy Fire and its message seriously.

This apparition mentioned above and all the other ones in the catholic church that speak be it mary or jesus are considered false…deception satanic…by orthodox christians,it wouldn’t take much to decieve 3 uneducated country bumkins… This mary of fatima didn’t know that russia was under the protecting mantel of the theotokos…

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

This apparition mentioned above and all the other ones in the catholic church that speak be it mary or jesus are considered false…deception satanic…by orthodox christians,it wouldn’t take much to decieve 3 uneducated country bumkins… This mary of fatima didn’t know that russia was under the protecting mantel of the theotokos…

How do you know Fatima was a satanic deception and the Holy Fire is not? How do you know the holy icons streaming myrh in your churches are not satanic deceptions? That the incorrupt body of St. John Maximovitch in the Russian Orthodox Cathedral of San Francisco is not satanic deception? I will give you an answer but won’t try to persuade you beyond that, because I have better things to do.

Fatima was believed by every Pope - Pius 12, John 23, Paul 6, John Paul 2, Benedict 16. Unless you consider JP-2, who was fluent in 8 languages, or B-16, one of the most accomplished scholarly theologians of our time, as uneducated country bumkins… And the 3 children… Do you feel vastly superior to them? Two of them have already been beatified, and I bet all 3 will be declared saints in due time. They happily gave up their lunches to the poor children and subsisted on acorns and berries, they imposed heavy penances on themselves such as going without water all day long while tending the sheep, and they beared the ridicule of their own families and the threats of atheist authorities while they were 10, 9, and 7 years old. Do you feel like you are more humble, more heroic, and closer to God than these 3 children?

They indeed didn’t know that Russia was a country, they thought that the Lady from Heaven (Holy Mary) was talking about an evil woman named Russia. Heaven chose such uneducated children on purpose - so that they would convey a prophetic message that they didn’t understand and couldn’t have possibly invented, but nevertheless that prophecy became fulfilled later on.

I have met this attitude before. A certain Orthodox website even suggested that the UFO-s appeared on Oct 13, 1917 and caused the “miracle of the Sun” which was witnessed by seventy thousand (70,000) people at Fatima.

But only God can give true prophecies that will be fulfilled, because only God knows the future. Satan cannot do this. Several prophecies were given at Fatima, which were fulfilled: that the war (WWI) will soon end, but a greater war (WWII) will erupt if people do not amend their ways, and this greater war will be announced by a strange light in the sky (which did happen in 1938). Portugal did amend its ways, and miraculously escaped involvement in WWII. The prophecy about Russia spreading her errors around the world and provoking persecutions of the faithful was also fulfilled. Personal prophecies given to Francisco and Jacinta were also fulfilled - they both knew beforehand the exact day and manner of their death.

The spiritual fruits of Fatima have been repentance and conversion to God - did Satan appear to call for this??

The Catholic Church has carefully examined the apparitions of Fatima and has deemed them worthy of belief. It’s not like you “have to” or “must” believe them. You also don’t “have to” sell your belongings and buy the field with the hidden treasure. It is just smart to do so, and you will never regret that you did.

 

[rad]

How do you know Fatima was a satanic deception and the Holy Fire is not? How do you know the holy icons streaming myrh in your churches are not satanic deceptions? That the incorrupt body of St. John Maximovitch in the Russian Orthodox Cathedral of San Francisco is not satanic deception? I will give you an answer but won’t try to persuade you beyond that, because I have better things to do.

Fatima was believed by every Pope - Pius 12, John 23, Paul 6, John Paul 2, Benedict 16. Unless you consider JP-2, who was fluent in 8 languages, or B-16, one of the most accomplished scholarly theologians of our time, as uneducated country bumkins… And the 3 children… Do you feel vastly superior to them? Two of them have already been beatified, and I bet all 3 will be declared saints in due time. They happily gave up their lunches to the poor children and subsisted on acorns and berries, they imposed heavy penances on themselves such as going without water all day long while tending the sheep, and they beared the ridicule of their own families and the threats of atheist authorities while they were 10, 9, and 7 years old. Do you feel like you are more humble, more heroic, and closer to God than these 3 children?

They indeed didn’t know that Russia was a country, they thought that the Lady from Heaven (Holy Mary) was talking about an evil woman named Russia. Heaven chose such uneducated children on purpose - so that they would convey a prophetic message that they didn’t understand and couldn’t have possibly invented, but nevertheless that prophecy became fulfilled later on.

I have met this attitude before. A certain Orthodox website even suggested that the UFO-s appeared on Oct 13, 1917 and caused the “miracle of the Sun” which was witnessed by seventy thousand (70,000) people at Fatima.

But only God can give true prophecies that will be fulfilled, because only God knows the future. Satan cannot do this. Several prophecies were given at Fatima, which were fulfilled: that the war (WWI) will soon end, but a greater war (WWII) will erupt if people do not amend their ways, and this greater war will be announced by a strange light in the sky (which did happen in 1938). Portugal did amend its ways, and miraculously escaped involvement in WWII. The prophecy about Russia spreading her errors around the world and provoking persecutions of the faithful was also fulfilled. Personal prophecies given to Francisco and Jacinta were also fulfilled - they both knew beforehand the exact day and manner of their death.

The spiritual fruits of Fatima have been repentance and conversion to God - did Satan appear to call for this??

The Catholic Church has carefully examined the apparitions of Fatima and has deemed them worthy of belief. It’s not like you “have to” or “must” believe them. You also don’t “have to” sell your belongings and buy the field with the hidden treasure. It is just smart to do so, and you will never regret that you did.

From the orthodox view point were all imaculate conceptions…born with out sin Innocent…like Mary…

 

[rad]

Some orthodox views on fatima…

Fatima consists of more than the supposed apparitions. The purported appartions are long gone, the locutions are alive and well.

Gnosis = esoteric spiritual knowledge available through direct experience.
Fatima locutions = secret ‘knowledge’ (message) imparted directly to (insert ‘visionary’ here), and in this instance, the ‘secrets’ are entrusted to the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

There are many of us here and elsewhere who still get a bad taste in our mouths when the issue of Fatima comes up. Why? Because we were kids in the fifties when we were constantly being told by our Roman Catholic friends and classmates that the Theotokos had appeared and asked them to pray for the conversion of Russia TO ROMAN CATHOLICISM!

What we were being told, in essence, is that she had appeared primarily for the sole purpose of asking for prayers for the destruction of our Holy Orthodox Catholic faith! Now here we are approximately 50 years later being told what she meant was for the destruction of communism and the return to the faith. The question becomes WHAT FAITH? I’m sorry, but at the time, there were just too many Roman Catholics from too many different RC parishes, all telling me the same story - Prayers had to be said for the conversion of Russia to RCism - for me to believe THEY ALL misinterpreted what their various priests and nuns were telling them…

It is an insult to the most holy Theotokos above all else. It is her full coperation in her free will that allowed the Saviour to become incarnate. The “immaculate conception” makes the Theotokos more than human, thus lessoning her role in the incarnation. If she were a sort of “super-human” and the rest of us mere humans that seperates us then ipso facto from the human nature of the Lord - ruining the concept of the incarnation in the process. If the Holy Theotokos were removed from the effects of original sin then should would not die, sorrow, etc. etc.

Another thing about accepting RC “apparations” is that is a de facto acceptance of the branch theory or worse. Rather than looking to Rome for Marian Piety why not look to the very heart of Orthodoxy, the Holy Mountain? There are awsome miracles of miraculous icons and true apparitions from the Holy Mountain.

Dear Friends in Christ,

I personally do not accept the Fatima revelation. In 1951 Pius XII announced that the VM had told him:“You will consecrate Russia to me”. While we must be grateful to the Pontiff for his war on communism, we did not need the RCC to solve our spiritual problems. As the Metropolitan of Mt Lebanon in 1947? reported: The Mother of God told me she saved Russia through the prayers of her saints, especially St Serafim of Vyristsa. So on the western side, the RCC guided by the Theotokos enlists the NAZI party (German Catholicis were told to vote for it) to attack Russia, while the Theotokos of the Orthodox Church defends Russia from the NAZIs.

Again the devil appears in Mary’s clothes at Meji…suddenly disappears at returns as the Theotokos, who tells her seer to ignore what she saw. This was simply a technical hitch (backstage in Hell).

Sorry to offend my RC friends. I studied at a RC College, loved those nuns! But Orthodoxy is the fullness of faith, the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

I shall be posting an article on modern day prelest on my website www.fatherserafim.info in a couple of days.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim

Yes it does sound like Bolshevik propaganda and was probably used by them to justify the defence of Russia. Interestingly enough Elder Savva of Pskov blessed young Orthodox to serve in the Red Army, because they were defending their fatherland. I am no admirer of current MP management, but the defence of Russia is a concept which democrats worldwide do not seem to understand. Also I do believe that Russia will play a signficant role in the preservation of Orthodoxy. I risk being accused of messianism - third Rome and all that stuff but I believe that the RCC is a threat to Orthodoxy. To quote: “His Holiness (Pius XII) thinks that even these crimes and this blood will one day be of service if it is going to be possible, when the wave of irreligion has passed, to attempt a Catholic evangelization in Russia. Orthodoxy no longer has any deep rooted life; its end as the official religion offers possibilities which would never have existed so long as a Tsar, Protector of the Church, continued to reign”. Cardinal Monti.

Quite recently Bishop Yuri (Yurchyk) of Donetsk, Ukraine indicated that he wishes to be an instrument of the Mother of God (Fatima) to assist in the fulfillment of her message at Fatima - that “Russia will be converted”. On 24th October, 2002, Bishop Yuri joined the RCC.

The love of God for the RC, who is leading a pious life and who is probably not aware of the political dimension of the Vatican, is not in question. God judges as He wishes.

The boundaries of the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ have been clearly defined by the Ecumenical Councils. But again God judges as he wishes.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim

.

 

[rad]

more views on fatima…

We didn’t need some religious phantom to predict all of those things. It’s odd that you write that Fatima was used to predict WWI, since the visions were reportedly seen in 1917-- a year before the end of WWI, which started in 1914. As for predicting the end of the war, I think studying the progression of the war up to that point can tell us what would have happened. Although I know it didn’t, if the apparition had predicted the start of WW1, we wouldn’t need that, either. I’m sure there were many people living at that time who saw how aggressive the nations of the world were against each other with all their political pacts of alliance. It’s like, if I cash a bad check, I know what’s going to eventually happen to me. It’s the same line of reasoning…
Also, seeing how the rest of the world treated Germany following the Great War, did we really need a religious ghost predicting that Germany would lash out in another World War like a cornered dog?
As for the prediction of Communism is Russia, the Marxist idea of Communism had gained many adherents, especially among the Russian
revolutionary intelligentsia, decades before the appearances of this apparition. The Russian Monarchy, like many monarchies before it, had its head stuck up its butt. The world didn’t need an apparition to show what we little people do to kings and queens who get too high on their horses.

Again, we shouldn’t put as much credibility to Fatima as the apparition in the news article because of what it preaches, and it preaches something contrary to the Truth of the Orthodox Church, especially since the Ghost wished Orthodox Russia to be “consecrated” to some “Immaculate Heart”. I don’t believe our Mother would not only insult Russia like that, but draw attention away from Jesus Christ

 

[Peter_J]

There are many of us here and elsewhere who still get a bad taste in our mouths when the issue of Fatima comes up. Why? Because we were kids in the fifties when we were constantly being told by our Roman Catholic friends and classmates that the Theotokos had appeared and asked them to pray for the conversion of Russia TO ROMAN CATHOLICISM!

Things can be spun in lots of different ways.

From the RC point of view, the Eastern Orthodox are not “Catholic” now, but they (you) will be if EOs and RCs enter into full communion. So in other words, from our p.o.v. “praying for reconciliation between EOs and RCs” could be rephrased as “praying for EOs to become Catholic”. (Well, unless you’re in the “No Spin Zone”. )

 

[Mickey]

The Roman Catholic Church hasn’t separated Herself from Orthodoxy, but has continued ever deeper in the leading of the Holy Spirit as Jesus said, and this is evidenced by the fact that She has never reversed Her doctrines once. Infallible.

Sorry my friend. Rome split and added doctrines to the Apostolic faith. You call it development but we call it innovations.

I pray that Rome returns to the fold of Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[Mickey]

But WHY was Peter the Spokesman?

Ah, because he spoke often?

Jesus never made him such.

So then you do not believe he was a spokesman?

WHy was John beloved?

Because the Scriptures tell us this.

If all are equal, no one has primacey.

Perhaps you misunderstand primacy. Let me ask you: If the Pope wanted to proclaim a new doctrine apart from a council, would he have the authority to do so?

Then what occured in 1850 is not important.

I do not know what happened in 1850. But in 1854 the innovation of the Immaculate Conception was set forth by Rome. And in 1870 Pope Pius IX decided to tell the world that the Pope is infallible.

 

[Mickey]

If so why does he not want to make amends with the other apostles since they were worse than peter by leaving him alone to face the Sanehdrin alone?

All are sinners. You and I also. The Apostles abandoned Him. St Peter abandon him and denied Him. But St John did not abandon Him–could that be the reason that he was the only one not martyred for the faith? Food for thought.

you would have to ask yourself then why did Jesus most of the time always seem to confer with peter than with the rest of the apostles?

Confer with? Please explain.

This argument is not logical

I’m not arguing with you. I am explaining to you the teaching of the true faith of the Holy Orthodox Church.

that’s as convinient as the petra/petros argument from the protestants.

St Peter was not “the Rock”. His confession of faith was “Rock”. And Christ is the Cornerstone.

PS: My point wasn’t to point out papal infallibility but to possibly show papal supremacy among other bishops.

Neither one (infallibility or supremacy) was a belief of the early undivided Church.

 

[Peter_J]

Let me ask you: If the Pope wanted to proclaim a new doctrine apart from a council, would he have the authority to do so?

Well sir, Pastor Aeternus (1870) speaks of "when the Roman Pontiff … defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church … ". It seems clear that it is, at least implicitly, saying that he can do so. (Of course, I don’t know if I would use the phrase “new doctrine” b/c as I’ve said before, it has to be something contained at least implicitly in the Deposit of Faith.)

 

[ralphinal]

Ah, because he spoke often?

Then he was a loud mouth. Why did the other 11 not tell him to let them speak for a change? THey all had the same authority, right?

So then you do not believe he was a spokesman?

No, I think he was in charge. He was the face of the group. That is why he spoke for them.

Because the Scriptures tell us this.

Good answer. Why do they tell us this? Obviously he had a different relationship than the rest.

Perhaps you misunderstand primacy. Let me ask you: If the Pope wanted to proclaim a new doctrine apart from a council, would he have the authority to do so?

He hasn’t done it yet, so I do not know. Those that he has proclaimed have been taught in the past.

I do not know what happened in 1850. But in 1854 the innovation of the Immaculate Conception was set forth by Rome. And in 1870 Pope Pius IX decided to tell the world that the Pope is infallible.

Mistype, sorry. My point is simple. If we left you in the 11th century, than what has happened since should not prove anything. Either we were wrong then or not.

 

[cazayoux]

This apparition mentioned above and all the other ones in the catholic church that speak be it mary or jesus are considered false…deception satanic…by orthodox christians…

The point of the apparitions was to ask people to pray.
Would satan do this?

When Jesus was accused of being in league with satan, what was His response?

anyone?

anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

michel

 

[Mickey]

(Of course, I don’t know if I would use the phrase “new doctrine” b/c as I’ve said before, it has to be something contained at least implicitly in the Deposit of Faith.)

Or at least explained in a way where Rome can say that it was a part of the deposit of faith.

 

[Mickey]

St. Mary of Egypt walked on water too? So does that mean we ought to consider her a Pope? Yeah, didn’t think so.

 

[Mickey]

The reason one does not see earlier specific definement of the issue, is because the Power was always there and clearly understood. “I Jesus” give you (Peter) "the keys to the kingdom of heaven,’ to “you Peter.” That is specific and clear.

St Peter is a great and glorious saint. The Holy Orthodox Church has a great veneration for him. But nothing you have said points to a supreme infallible pontiff of Rome.

 

[Mickey]

BUT the Rock on which the Church is built is Christ and the correct understanding in who Christ is: 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity and the Son of God the Father, not on the person of St. Peter…disagreed!

Sorry, that seems to be reading into it. I tried to read it that way, and… I just can’t see it that way.

Eph 2:19-20
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: