Orthodoxy and Catholicism

[dvdjs]

I’m going to an Orthodox Church of America Divine Liturgy. I’m really looking forward to it. Anything I should expect? I know their liturgy is different from the Mass, but isn’t it older? Like dating to the sixth century?

Any reason that the West has changed theirs so frequently?

WetC: You may find many Eastern Christians who suggest that the Liturgies currently celebrated are largely unchanged from the fourth century. But this suggestion is incorrect. As is the suggestion that the" West has changed theirs so frequently".

Sts. John Chrysostom and Basil the Great would recognize little if any of the contemporary liturgies that bear their names; and much of what they would recognize they would also find in the contemporary Western mass. There are some scholarly treatments that you might like to read which detail the the evolution of the liturgies.
djs

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

But as Joseph Ratzinger said:

Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope’s visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more.

How would this work, I wonder? Rome has required all Catholics to accept these post-Schism doctrines. If East and West were to unify, and the East was not required to accept the doctrines in question, where would that leave Western Catholics? Could a Catholic who doubted papal infallibility feel free to do so, since his brothers and sisters in the East were free to disbelieve it? It is all supposed to be one Church, after all, and what is true (or not) for one is true (or not) for another.

 

[pr_catholic]

Sadly, the only way I think that the Schism ends is if both sides agree on the papal primacy. Let’s pray that one day we may hve full communion with the Orthodox church.

 

[Peter_J]

Peter J;4457951:

But as Joseph Ratzinger said:

Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope’s visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more.

How would this work, I wonder? Rome has required all Catholics to accept these post-Schism doctrines. If East and West were to unify, and the East was not required to accept the doctrines in question, where would that leave Western Catholics? Could a Catholic who doubted papal infallibility feel free to do so, since his brothers and sisters in the East were free to disbelieve it? It is all supposed to be one Church, after all, and what is true (or not) for one is true (or not) for another.

I’m not really sure either.

There are some (Melkites, in particular) who believe that Papal Infallibility and Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction are true, but that they have never been dogmatically defined (or perhaps “never been validly dogmatically defined” would be a better way to put it). Those people could reasonably say to the Orthodox “You are mistaken on this point, but we can be in full communion with you nevertheless.”

However, I’m pretty sure that Joseph Ratzinger has always considered P.I. and U.O.J. to be dogmas … so like I said, I’m really sure how it would work, from his p.o.v.

 

[mark_a]

Can someone tell me the differences between the two . . . . .?

You can keep more of your Protestant friends if you go Orthodox.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

You can keep more of your Protestant friends if you go Orthodox.

Or at least get less concerned and pitying glances from them.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I am not either Orthodox or Catholic but I want to join one of them. I have been reading a lot about them and am not sure what one to join.To be honest I think I am leaning more towards Catholicism. Can someone tell me the differences between the two and why the Catholic way is right? Much appreciated

Before making up you mind, I recommend you read this book by a Orthodox scholar named Vladimir Soloviev, called Russia and the Universal Church (available in an abridged edition called The Russian Church and the Papacy). From his Russian Orthodox perspective, he makes an excellent case for full communion with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter.

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/images/items/1832lg.jpg

 

[Alethiaphile]

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a great deal more demanding than in Catholicism, something which I, with my Evangelical Protestant background, would likely find to be a struggle. Plus, for all the Orthodox Church’s permissiveness when it comes to contraception, they don’t hesitate to tell married couple’s which nights of the year (less than half, I believe) they are allowed to have sexual intercourse.

As a Catholic very familiar with Orthodoxy, I think you have misstated the Orthodox practice with regard to marital intercourse. They do not “tell married couples what nights of the year” they can have intercourse. There are traditions concerning abstaining from intercourse on nights before great feasts, and during fast periods. However, these are traditions, not hard and fast rules. There is a very important Orthodox teaching about economia, or flexibility, in applying practices of abstaining or fasting. They are not always strictly applied.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I am not either Orthodox or Catholic but I want to join one of them. I have been reading a lot about them and am not sure what one to join.To be honest I think I am leaning more towards Catholicism. Can someone tell me the differences between the two and why the Catholic way is right? Much appreciated

See also:

***Did the Bishop of Rome originally have only “primacy of honor?” *

**

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

There is a very important Orthodox teaching about economia, or flexibility, in applying practices of abstaining or fasting. They are not always strictly applied.

True. Thank you for reminding me of that. Actually, I believe another difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is that the penalty for breaking fasts is much harsher in the Catholic Church. I remember some interesting discussions about whether or not Catholics used to go to Hell for eating meat (other than fish, of course) on Fridays. I believe that the Orthodox Church would say that a person missed an opportunity for growth by not keeping the fast, but I do not think the penalty of damnation was thought to be in effect. Then again, so much of what I know about the Orthodox Church is from Internet forum conversations, so I am far from the expert here.

 

[StMarina303ad]

As a Catholic very familiar with Orthodoxy, I think you have misstated the Orthodox practice with regard to marital intercourse. They do not “tell married couples what nights of the year” they can have intercourse. There are traditions concerning abstaining from intercourse on nights before great feasts, and during fast periods. However, these are traditions, not hard and fast rules. There is a very important Orthodox teaching about economia, or flexibility, in applying practices of abstaining or fasting. They are not always strictly applied.

Fasting is a requirement for all Orthodox Christians, including from marital relations in addition to meats, fish, dairy, olive oil, etc., but there is not a harsh penalty if one fails to have the self-control. Obtaining self-control is one of the purposes of the Fasts. It is something some struggle with, something their spiritual father helps them with. He can make the ruling more or less strict depending on that person’s or couple’s location on the narrow road to salvation.

Economia is needed for anyone’s true spiritual growth. It’s not about hard fast rules in Orthodoxy, it’s about spiritual progress.

From my experiences with the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church is more interested on obedience to the rule, whether that be Fasting, Birth Control, etc, than it is interested in the spiritual growth of the individual.

For example some couples, NFP is not in the best interest for the spiritual growth of the family…example, if the couple has not had any children yet, they are not learning how to truly place another’s needs above their own, something which is learned through caring for a child so by practicing NFP the couple is not growing spiritually so a spiritual father, who knows a couple intimately, will be able to make a judgement for the couple as to whether or not something is helpful or hurtful for them. Yet for some couples who’ve already had plenty of children one or more with special needs and the doctors have determined medically it could kill the wife if she conceives again and she’s already tried NFP with the assistance of the doctor and NFP councilor with the result of 4 more children, the spiritual father may determine that another method of birth control is needed, like sterilization of the husband for the good of the couple’s spiritual life and for the good of their family. The Catholic Church on the other hand, looks at their rule and whether or not the couple obeys the rule rather than looking at the spiritual good of the couple.

This mindset, I believe, comes from the Catholic Churches theology which is based soley around the idea of the Church as a Court Room rather than seeing the Church for what it is - a hospital where people come for spiritual (& physical) healing.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Before making up you mind, I recommend you read this book by a Orthodox scholar named Vladimir Soloviev, called Russia and the Universal Church (available in an abridged edition called The Russian Church and the Papacy). From his Russian Orthodox perspective, he makes an excellent case for full communion with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter.

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/images/items/1832lg.jpg

 

[StMarina303ad]

Before making up you mind, I recommend you read this book by a Orthodox scholar named Vladimir Soloviev, called Russia and the Universal Church (available in an abridged edition called The Russian Church and the Papacy). From his Russian Orthodox perspective, he makes an excellent case for full communion with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter.

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/images/items/1832lg.jpg

I own and have read that book, it was quite a bore, but maybe you’ll like it. Did not satisfy my desire for knowledge of the differences between the theology of the Catholic and Orthodox Church and why the Catholic Church is supposed to be better. Seemed to be more of a rant against the Russian Orthodox Church during her trails of Communism when it was hard for the average joe to realize if he or she were really in the Orthodox Church or in a KGB run fake of the Orthodox Church. It was a difficult time period for the Orthodox Christians who survived (at least 20 million Orthodox Christians were killed by the Communists - many bishops and priests and the priests families) the holocaust to determine what was and what was not the Orthodox Church. Which is why there are a few Russian Orthodox Churches now in the U.S. due to the Church mostly going underground, the communication was broken with the other parts of the Church. An individual may say, "Well I know I’m really a part of the real Orthodox Church, but I don’t know if those people in Moscow are part of the real Orthodox Church anymore or not, so I’m only in communion with this part of the Church, but not with that one. Things have begun to turn around now that Communism has largely fallen, but it will be a slow process to get the Russian Church reunited under the Patriarch in Moscow. Sadly, some have lost their faith during that trail which lasted nearly a century.
I would liken the situation in Russia with the Orthodox Church with the situation in China with the Orthodox & Catholic Churches. I remember hearing over Catholic Radio that anyone who went to China for the Olympics and needed to attend Mass, that they would have no way of knowing whether or not a Catholic Church they attended was actually in union with the Pope or not and that they should attend Mass, but not receive communion. The author of this book is one of those who lost his faith. It is sad and we, Orthodox Christians, pray for him and others like him daily. I would imagine that the Catholics also pray daily for those in the same situation in places like China who are also prone to losing their faith because of the trails against the Catholic Church posed by Communism.

A couple of books which I would highly recommend which clearly set out the differences theologically between Orthodoxy and Catholicism are:

The Truth: What Every Roman Catholic Should Know About the Orthodox Church by Clark Carlton reginaorthodoxpress.com/trutiwevromc.html

Two Paths: Papal Monarchy - Collegial Tradition by Michael Whelton reginaorthodoxpress.com/twopaths.html

 

[Peter_J]

Yet for some couples who’ve already had plenty of children one or more with special needs and the doctors have determined medically it could kill the wife if she conceives again and she’s already tried NFP with the assistance of the doctor and NFP councilor with the result of 4 more children, the spiritual father may determine that another method of birth control is needed, like sterilization of the husband for the good of the couple’s spiritual life and for the good of their family. The Catholic Church on the other hand, looks at their rule and whether or not the couple obeys the rule rather than looking at the spiritual good of the couple.

StMarina,

First, I absolutely agree with you that Catholics are too permissive about using NFP. I think it ought to be seen, not as the norm, but as an exercise of “economy”.

But second, I’m not at all convinced that sterilization is morally acceptable, even in a situation like you described. It seems to me that the thing to do there would be to completely abstain from sex (difficult as that may be).

 

[Peter_J]

I own and have read that book, it was quite a bore, but maybe you’ll like it. Did not satisfy my desire for knowledge of the differences between the theology of the Catholic and Orthodox Church and why the Catholic Church is supposed to be better. Seemed to be more of a rant against the Russian Orthodox Church during her trials of Communism when it was hard for the average joe to realize if he or she were really in the Orthodox Church or in a KGB run fake of the Orthodox Church.

Perhaps so, but the thing to keep in mind is this was written at a time when the “ecumenical spirit” was so hard to find, most people probably didn’t even know it existed. If we looked at some Orthodox or Protestant publications from the same era, I’m sure we’d find plenty of rants against Catholicism. (I don’t have any particular titles in mind, but if you want I’d be happy to look some up.) Don’t judge us by what Catholics said a few generations ago.

P.S. Or, even better, don’t judge something written a few generations ago by today’s standards.

 

[StMarina303ad]

StMarina,
But second, I’m not at all convinced that sterilization is morally acceptable, even in a situation like you described. It seems to me that the thing to do there would be to completely abstain from sex (difficult as that may be).

So in your opinion it is far better to for the couple to completely abstain from sex which would explode the husband’s pornography/fidelity problem (this is a real couple that I know), completely destroys their marriage which is their path to salvation (if their path of salvation had been monastic, they would have become a monk and a nun rather than become married) which in turn destroys both of their spiritual lives as well as hurts their 8 children’s spiritual lives since they would no longer be raised in a mini-Church, the Christian Home.

See this is why each Orthodox has a spiritual father or spiritual mother, because people who have not yet reached the stage of Illumination of the Nous do not have the adequate spiritual discernment skills to make such a judgement or ecomonia for a particular person for couple.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Perhaps so, but the thing to keep in mind is this was written at a time when the “ecumenical spirit” was so hard to find, most people probably didn’t even know it existed. If we looked at some Orthodox or Protestant publications from the same era, I’m sure we’d find plenty of rants against Catholicism. (I don’t have any particular titles in mind, but if you want I’d be happy to look some up.) Don’t judge us by what Catholics said a few generations ago.

P.S. Or, even better, don’t judge something written a few generations ago by today’s standards.

Hey, I’m not the one who recommended that book. I own it, but found no value in it as it is a rant and I think completely invalid for someone who really wants to look at the theology which still divides the Orthodox and Catholic Churches for the intent of determining which Church to join.

 

[Peter_J]

So in your opinion it is far better to for the couple to completely abstain from sex which would explode the husband’s pornography/fidelity problem (this is a real couple that I know), completely destroys their marriage which is their path to salvation (if their path of salvation had been monastic, they would have become a monk and a nun rather than become married) which in turn destroys both of their spiritual lives as well as hurts their 8 children’s spiritual lives since they would no longer be raised in a mini-Church, the Christian Home.

There’s probably a few different things that could be said here, but the main thing which comes to my mind is, I think you are taking an overly idealized view of celibate vocations.

Ideally, someone who is celibate is so purely and simply because it’s their special calling from God. However, in practice there are often multiple factors involved. Perhaps a person choosing a life of celibacy is influenced by the fact that most of his or her sexual attractions are toward the same gender. Or perhaps the one person he or she truly loved married somebody else. Or perhaps he or she is actually intending to marry someday, but goes decades without finding the right person.

I could go on, but the point is that I do agree that abstinence would very likely be difficult for the couple in your example; but at the same time abstinence is often difficult, for a lot of different reasons.

 

[Peter_J]

Hey, I’m not the one who recommended that book. I own it, but found no value in it as it is a rant and I think completely invalid for someone who really wants to look at the theology which still divides the Orthodox and Catholic Churches for the intent of determining which Church to join.

Fair point. I just wanted to give a little context to your statement that it is a “rant against the Russian Orthodox Church”.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Fair point. I just wanted to give a little context to your statement that it is a “rant against the Russian Orthodox Church”.

Context is good. A rant is a rant. An ant is an ant. And I am sleepy.