Orthodoxy and council government

[Reuben_J]

Dear brother Reuben,

I don’t think the comment highlighted above is fair. The fact is, the Catholic Churches MOST of the time works exactly the same way as the Orthodox Churches. The Pope’s primacy is only exercised in rather rare circumstances.

I believe a more interesting question is “If the papacy has worked for the Catholic Church since the inception of the Church, why would it not work for the Orthodox today?”

I think to the more intellectually-minded, the answer lies in the perception of the orthodoxy of the teachings of the Catholic Church, which the Pope represents. A papacy CAN work for the Orthodox, but only if the papacy is orthodox. Of course, that is where the whole issue lies. Catholics believe the teachings of the Catholic Church are orthodox, whereas many Orthodox don’t (notwithstanding the Absolutist Petrine misunderstanding of Catholic ecclesiology, which is unfortunately rather popular, even among Catholics).

Blessings,
Marduk

Hi. I am saying that I should not question the Orthodox Church practice in response to Rawb. I agree with you. I just want some answers from them for personal knowledge on Orthodoxy. At the same time I question their laws and practice which Rawb said it is difficult to explain. I took it that then that I don’t have to ask if the explanation is not forthcoming, or is it?

I understand what you are trying to say but I want to go down to the root of it why certain law is adopted. Is not this what the Protestants ask us all the time and we tried to answer them too and debate with them? We do not say it is difficult to explain, that it is so because it is and because the Holy Spirit moves it so.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

I think to the** more intellectually-minded**, the answer lies in the perception of the orthodoxy of the teachings of the Catholic Church, which the Pope represents. A papacy CAN work for the Orthodox, but only if the papacy is orthodox. Of course, that is where the whole issue lies. Catholics believe the teachings of the Catholic Church are orthodox, whereas many Orthodox don’t (notwithstanding the Absolutist Petrine misunderstanding of Catholic ecclesiology, which is unfortunately rather popular, even among Catholics).

Blessings,
Marduk

Unfortunately I am a very simple person and I talk very simply. I am sorry about that.

 

[mardukm]

Unfortunately I am a very simple person and I talk very simply. I am sorry about that.

Don’t worry. When I said “intellectually-minded,” I just meant people who think rationally and don’t let emotions rule their thoughts. I think you are intellecually-minded. Well – yes, my father is a Vulcan, and my mother is an Earthling.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Reuben_J]

Don’t worry. When I said “intellectually-minded,” I just meant people who think rationally and don’t let emotions rule their thoughts. I think you are intellecually-minded.

Blessings,
Marduk

I don’t know brother. You don’t have to be nice, I can accept it.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

mardukm:

Well – yes, my father is a Vulcan, and my mother is an Earthling.

And I was exposed to a very high dose of radiation, it affected the brain a bit and now I am a green man and a hulk when agitated.

 

[mardukm]

And I was exposed to a very high dose of radiation, it affected the brain a bit and now I am a green man and a hulk when agitated.

Prayer always helps in this regard. We Vulcans (or half-Vulcan in my case) are very religious folk, and regard prayer as one of the means to keep our emotions in check.

I won’t comment on the possibility that you might be a Marvel fan.Being a DC fanatic, my emotions might start flaring up.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Reuben_J]

Prayer always helps in this regard. We Vulcans (or half-Vulcan in my case) are very religious folk, and regard prayer as one of the means to keep our emotions in check.

I won’t comment on the possibility that you might be a Marvel fan.Being a DC fanatic, my emotions might start flaring up.

Blessings,
Marduk

I have been spending too much time on the computer and yes, that affects prayer life. Vulcan must save me this time, I need that prayer or rather with the power of your mind.

Well, it might just as well. You don’t like me when I get angry.

 

[Wandile]

The Holy Spirit cannot work in many churches that do completely different and contradictory practices. Either they are right or they are wrong. So it is just claim, merely claim of having the Holy Spirit to justify their laws and practices.

:tsktsk:I think this is an incorrect statement. God cannot be limited for with God all things are possible. The Holy Spirit works through the Catholic Church fully as was promised by Christ. However other Churches (Eastern with apostolic succession) and ecclesial communities (as the Pope calls protestants) have the spirit in them too although, he does not work fully in them as the suffer from defects of schism and heresy in some cases.

Their practices that fall out of favour with the revealed truth , the ways of the Catholic Church, surely are not the work of the Spirit and in this I agree with you when you say they claim the Holy Spirit to justify these erroneous practices

 

[Rawb]

My goodness, my friend, I am not offended or upset at all. I am questioning your religion, why should I be offended or upset? In fact I am so afraid with all my questioning or talking about the Orthodox that I may offend you all. I remember you walked out of the conversation in the other thread as I discussed issues of Orthodoxy.

I wasn’t offended in that other discussion, I just didn’t think there was any point in continuing it, because the answer had been given repeatedly and it apparently wasn’t satisfactory for you. If, for example, I told someone that 2+2=4 and they said that wasn’t good enough, they wanted more than just “4” I don’t know what I can tell them, there’s no point in my going on and on repeating “4. Four. Quatre. The number after 3.” (This is also assuming that we’re not able to go into proofs and all that other stuff, that the answer stops at 4). I wasn’t upset though.

here you couldn’t explain your belief and says it is the Holy Spirit at work to dismiss the question. I am amazed actually that you converted to a religion simply out of ‘instinct’ and could not articulate some of the important issues therein.

Told you people think it’s a cop out. I didn’t dismiss the question - I gave it an answer. You just don’t think the answer is satisfactory. That’s fine, doesn’t prevent it being the answer.

I didn’t convert out of “instinct.” I converted for a variety of other reasons, the primary one being that papal infallibility was proven to me to be false, but that’s not the topic of this thread.

The Holy Spirit cannot work in many churches that do completely different and contradictory practices. Either they are right or they are wrong. So it is just claim, merely claim of having the Holy Spirit to justify their laws and practices.

Your own church disagrees with you on this.

I feel that all law and practices must pass the test of hard scrutiny but I can understand if you don’t want to go through that.

I don’t think that’s necessary. helpful, or even possible, so no, lol, I don’t want to go through that. Others might have more willingness in this though.

 

[Nine_Two]

Thank you. That would have answered my question. I hope that speaks for the Orthodox Church on this issue and not just your personal opinion.

One more question while we are at this. What is the definition of an Ecumenical Council? Say, if the Orthodox Church decides to convene one today, I mean hypothetically since I understand that she must have a reason for convening one and now she does not, who should attend or which church should be represented, for the council to be called ecumenical?

An Ecumenical Council is a Council that is accepted by all Churches as being Ecumenical. I am sorry, but there is no formula to it.

Can the Orthodox Church call herself the true Church and defends her doctrine if she does not address heresy committed outside the confine of her Church?

Thanks.

I’m not aware of the Catholic Church addressing heresy committed outside of it (has a council addressed the Prosperity Gospel?).
The Church has never addressed such issues. It has only ever addressed those issues which she is forced into contact with. So yes, she can still call herself the True, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church even if we don’t issue a formal condemnation of the pet heresy of a region.

 

[Reuben_J]

"Reuben J:

The Holy Spirit cannot work in many churches that do completely different and contradictory practices. Either they are right or they are wrong. So it is just claim, merely claim of having the Holy Spirit to justify their laws and practices.

:tsktsk:I think this is an incorrect statement. God cannot be limited for with God all things are possible. The Holy Spirit works through the Catholic Church fully as was promised by Christ. However other Churches (Eastern with apostolic succession) and ecclesial communities (as the Pope calls protestants) have the spirit in them too although, he does not work fully in them as the suffer from defects of schism and heresy in some cases.

Their practices that fall out of favour with the revealed truth , the ways of the Catholic Church, surely are not the work of the Spirit and in this I agree with you when you say they claim the Holy Spirit to justify these erroneous practices

You should read my post again and maybe what did I say? The Holy Spirit cannot work in many churches that do completely different and contradictory practices.

How could the works of the Holy Spirit contradict each other? It must be new to me that the works of the Holy Spirit should contradict themselves.

What I know is that there are different gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given to different people for the upbuilding of the body. But they will never contradict each other because the Holy Spirit is not a spirit of confusion but a spirit of order.

I never say the Holy Spirit does not work in the Orthodox Church if that is your insinuation. No, I did not. I am talking about certain practices which I do not agree with. One of it is the Orthodox Church allowing remarrying, divorce and therefore adultery. For example, the Catholic Church does not allow these. So the practices of the two Churches are contradicting to each other.

You are free with your opinion and so am I. Just give out your reason for saying so instead of just generalizing.

You can pick out practices which you think are not from the Holy Spirit and then give your reasons for saying so.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

You should read my post again and maybe what did I say? The Holy Spirit cannot work in many churches that do completely different and contradictory practices.

How could the works of the Holy Spirit contradict each other? It must be new to me that the works of the Holy Spirit should contradict themselves.

What I know is that there are different gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given to different people for the upbuilding of the body. But they will never contradict each other because the Holy Spirit is not a spirit of confusion but a spirit of order.

I never say the Holy Spirit does not work in the Orthodox Church if that is your insinuation. No, I did not. I am talking about certain practices which I do not agree with. One of it is the Orthodox Church allowing remarrying, divorce and therefore adultery. For example, the Catholic Church does not allow these. So the practices of the two Churches are contradicting to each other.

You are free with your opinion and so am I. Just give out your reason for saying so instead of just generalizing.

You can pick out practices which you think are not from the Holy Spirit and then give your reasons for saying so.

Whether or not the Orthodox Church is guided by the Holy Spirit is outside of the scope of this thread. The OP was asking about Orthodox practice, not whether or not whether members of CAF find that practice to be valid or not. The same can be said about the discussion concerning second marriages in the Orthodox Church (in fact I think there is another thread going on right now specifically about that). I know it’s not my job to moderate this thread, forgive me if this comes off in a condescending manner! Out of respect for the OP and the conversation at hand perhaps it would be best if we don’t derail?

Peace

 

[Reuben_J]

I wasn’t offended in that other discussion, I just didn’t think there was any point in continuing it, because the answer had been given repeatedly and it apparently wasn’t satisfactory for you. If, for example, I told someone that 2+2=4 and they said that wasn’t good enough, they wanted more than just “4” I don’t know what I can tell them, there’s no point in my going on and on repeating “4. Four. Quatre. The number after 3.” (This is also assuming that we’re not able to go into proofs and all that other stuff, that the answer stops at 4). I wasn’t upset though.

Told you people think it’s a cop out. I didn’t dismiss the question - I gave it an answer. You just don’t think the answer is satisfactory. That’s fine, doesn’t prevent it being the answer.

I am glad that you didn’t. I had the feeling you did and I felt bad about it.

I came in to inquire but I am a Catholic so it is with Catholic background. That was how I discuss, argue or reason out. It is my character; I wanted to get to the bottom of it where I would be sufficiently satisfied. I thought I could get that from those who are from the Orthodox Church.

I didn’t convert out of “instinct.” I converted for a variety of other reasons, the primary one being that papal infallibility was proven to me to be false, but that’s not the topic of this thread.

I was thinking you have converted and here you are unable to defend an aspect of your new religion from scrutiny and more so by saying that others cannot understand. Isn’t that jumping from one frying pan to the other and in the process blaming others for it?

All issues are subjected to scrutiny and debate. We have to get to the bottom of them if we want to. If you do not want, that is your choice also which I respect and am not going to push you on it.
"Reuben J:

The Holy Spirit cannot work in many churches that do completely different and contradictory practices. Either they are right or they are wrong. So it is just claim, merely claim of having the Holy Spirit to justify their laws and practices.

Your own church disagrees with you on this.

The word is “contradictory” not “many churches”.

I will give an extreme example. One church allows murder the other church does not. These two practices are contradictory to each other. And both churches claim that their practices are from the work of the Holy Spirit. Do you agree that both practices are from the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit is inspiring both works?

I don’t think that’s necessary. helpful, or even possible, so no, lol, I don’t want to go through that. Others might have more willingness in this though.

Fair enough if you don’t want. But do you think that our Church laws and practices should stand the test of hard scrutiny or not?

 

[Reuben_J]

Whether or not the Orthodox Church is guided by the Holy Spirit is outside of the scope of this thread. The OP was asking about Orthodox practice, not whether or not whether members of CAF find that practice to be valid or not. The same can be said about the discussion concerning second marriages in the Orthodox Church (in fact I think there is another thread going on right now specifically about that). I know it’s not my job to moderate this thread, forgive me if this comes off in a condescending manner! Out of respect for the OP and the conversation at hand perhaps it would be best if we don’t derail?

Peace

You came in an picked on a statement which you disputed. Now you are saying something else and tell me that we should stick to the OP’s topic. I am one who would try to stick to the topic but there are posts that I have to reply to which I thought are unfair comments to me. There is a bit of joke in some of the posts to diffuse the situation.

But if you must comment, then stick with what you said and defend it. Otherwise you are merely trying to sound unhappy and pick on a subject that you perhaps do not know about.

 

[Rawb]

I am glad that you didn’t. I had the feeling you did and I felt bad about it.

Nope, no worries. I’m fairly blunt, so if I’m going to leave a conversation I’ll just say it, and there is rarely any heat behind anything I say.

I was thinking you have converted and here you are unable to defend an aspect of your new religion from scrutiny and more so by saying that others cannot understand. Isn’t that jumping from one frying pan to the other and in the process blaming others for it?

I don’t know what you mean by blaming others for it. What is “it?” I’m also confused by what you mean jumping from one frying pan to another. I wasn’t leaving problems in Roman Catholicism (well, I mean I was, there are a lot of issues that bothered me there that are no longer issues in Orthodoxy, but what I mean to say is that the reason I left is not because of those issues). And I did defend an aspect of my faith - I said the Holy Spirit moves and guides us in ways that from the outside might appear arbitrary and obscure but to the Orthodox believer make perfect sense. Maybe put it another way - in my family there are certain rules and habits and ‘regulations’ that I know and follow because I have subconsciously picked them up from growing up in my family. I know that I am not going to discuss religion with Uncle Bruce and that I always have to nod assent to what Grandpa says. Someone from outside my family may very well ask “Why can you talk about religion with your cousin Jason but not with his dad Uncle Bruce?” I’d shrug and just say “that’s the way it is. It’s different situations, I just know not to.” Orthodoxy works the same way. You know what is allowed and what isn’t, it just makes sense for some reason.

All issues are subjected to scrutiny and debate. We have to get to the bottom of them if we want to. If you do not want, that is your choice also which I respect and am not going to push you on it.

I used to believe like this as well, but I’ve had to let it go. Human reason is not capable of discerning everything, especially where God is concerned. Oftentimes we must take things on faith. Too much logic results in absurd legal loopholes and backbends, trying to force God into boxes of human reason. He is greater than what we are able to think. I had to learn to let go of trusting my own understanding, trusting human logic, needing an answer for everything, and realizing that a lot of the hypotheticals I was so bent on double-checking would both probably never happen (and were pointless - hypotheticals always are) and, even more importantly, weren’t any of my business.

The word is “contradictory” not “many churches”.

I will give an extreme example. One church allows murder the other church does not. These two practices are contradictory to each other. And both churches claim that their practices are from the work of the Holy Spirit. Do you agree that both practices are from the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit is inspiring both works?

This is a misunderstanding on our parts. I wouldn’t claim that any church other than The Holy Orthodox Church is being guided by the Holy Spirit. What I originally said (or meant) was He could be working in any of them. I meant more on an individual basis, not the corporate guidance that governs an entire church, like His guiding a council. I’ve meant, every time, the Holy Spirit guiding individuals. If the majority of the individuals are guided in this way the Holy Spirit can be said to be guiding that church, but I don’t know if that happens outside of Orthodoxy. It’s not my concern.

Fair enough if you don’t want. But do you think that our Church laws and practices should stand the test of hard scrutiny or not?

Not really. What’s our scrutiny to the reasoning of God? He can see so far beyond our ability to do so that our attempts to understand His working through His church is laughable, and we’re right to oftentimes not even try.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Rawb. I am glad it is just a misunderstanding and now sorted out. I will not pursue it anymore to give chance for other posters to discuss the topic of the thread.

God bless you.

Reuben

 

[Wandile]

You should read my post again and maybe what did I say? The Holy Spirit cannot work in many churches that do completely different and contradictory practices.

How could the works of the Holy Spirit contradict each other? It must be new to me that the works of the Holy Spirit should contradict themselves.

What I know is that there are different gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given to different people for the upbuilding of the body. But they will never contradict each other because the Holy Spirit is not a spirit of confusion but a spirit of order.

I never say the Holy Spirit does not work in the Orthodox Church if that is your insinuation. No, I did not. I am talking about certain practices which I do not agree with. One of it is the Orthodox Church allowing remarrying, divorce and therefore adultery. For example, the Catholic Church does not allow these. So the practices of the two Churches are contradicting to each other.

You are free with your opinion and so am I. Just give out your reason for saying so instead of just generalizing.

You can pick out practices which you think are not from the Holy Spirit and then give your reasons for saying so.

Read the second paragraph of my reply to you. You would not have had to reply to me had you done just that as I agree when you say the Holy Spirit cannot guide contradictory practices and we both know the Catholic Church has the foulness of truth.

The only problem I had with you statement was when you said “The Holy Spirit cannot work in many churches that do completely different and contradictory practices.”

To say He cannot work in these churches is incorrect simply because they have different practices. YES the practices may not be of the Holy Spirit but that does not mean that these churches don’t have any of the Spirit with them. Or else how would you explain some of the genuine miracles in protestant churches?

I think we are saying the exact same thing but your wording was the problem

 

[Reuben_J]

Read the second paragraph of my reply to you. You would not have had to reply to me had you done just that as I agree when you say the Holy Spirit cannot guide contradictory practices and we both know the Catholic Church has the foulness of truth.

The only problem I had with you statement was when you said “The Holy Spirit cannot work in many churches that do completely different and contradictory practices.”

To say He cannot work in these churches is incorrect simply because they have different practices. YES the practices may not be of the Holy Spirit but that does not mean that these churches don’t have any of the Spirit with them. Or else how would you explain some of the genuine miracles in protestant churches?

I think we are saying the exact same thing but your wording was the problem

I don’t know how you interpret it but what I am saying is general truth.

It is this: One cannot say it is the work of the Holy Spirit if the outcome of that works contradict each other. So if two churches say their work is from the Holy Spirit but yet when we compared the two (work/laws), they are contradicting each other, then one of them cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit. Because as I said in another post, the Holy Spirit is not the spirit of confusion but of order.

I did not say the Holy Spirit cannot work in different churches. The Holy Spirit cannot contradict himself in the different churches. There is a difference there. The key word here is contradict / contradictory. It is not rocket science that’s so difficult to understand.

Different practice and contradicting practice is not the same. For example, my practice is drinking with straw and yours may be directly from a cup. These are different practices but the purpose is the same - drinking. Contradicting is different. Say, I drink water and you do not. That’s contradicting.

 

[Wandile]

I don’t know how you interpret it but what I am saying is general truth.

It is this: One cannot say it is the work of the Holy Spirit if the outcome of that works contradict each other. So if two churches say their work is from the Holy Spirit but yet when we compared the two (work/laws), they are contradicting each other, then one of them cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit. Because as I said in another post, the Holy Spirit is not the spirit of confusion but of order.

I didn’t disagree with you about this.

I did not say the Holy Spirit cannot work in different churches. The Holy Spirit cannot contradict himself in the different churches. There is a difference there. The key word here is contradict / contradictory. It is not rocket science that’s so difficult to understand.

Again I already stated in my first post that I agree with this.

Different practice and contradicting practice is not the same. For example, my practice is drinking with straw and yours may be directly from a cup. These are different practices but the purpose is the same - drinking. Contradicting is different. Say, I drink water and you do not. That’s contradicting.

Contradictory practices are not of the Holy Spirit. Never did I deny this. This is not the work of the Holy Spirit. However because of this , it does not mean that these churches suffer from the absence of the Holy Spirit as whole. This was what your wording insinuated.

All I’m saying is you should check your wording ,as in this case, your words said much more than what you intended them to say due to ambiguity.

 

[Reuben_J]

Contradictory practices are not of the Holy Spirit. Never did I deny this. This is not the work of the Holy Spirit. However because of this , it does not mean that these churches suffer from the absence of the Holy Spirit as whole. This was what your wording insinuated.

All I’m saying is you should check your wording ,as in this case, your words said much more than what you intended them to say due to ambiguity.

My goodness! You are letting your mind wandering too far. We should not be too suspicious too. There is no way that I say the church suffers just because the Holy Spirit is not at work in a particular practice especially since I did not say that the Holy Spirit cannot work in different churches.

Well, just for your information. I have nothing against the Orthodox Church. I am simply ignorance of their practices. I have never been to an Orthodox Church and I have no friends or acquaintances that are from that Church. I was just enquiring about their practice and at this time it is just a curiosity phase.

I know I disagree with some of their practices and from what I read here, it is their allowing divorce, remarriage and adultery. Also about Ecumenical Council. Some of them say it must be agreed by all churches, some say need not.

As it is with me and my Catholic background, I just want to go to the bottom of this. I believe the Orthodox Church is authentic church with apostolic succession. And if there seems to be contradictory in their practice with Catholicism, I just want to go to the bottom of it because definitely there must be reason for it that can be accepted by us (me), them being a true church.

It is just that the explanation is not forthcoming and some posters perhaps thought that I am anti-Orthodox, I don’t know, but the explanation is not what I am satisfied with. It is my nature that if I want to know something, my questions can be quite scrutinizing.

But anyway, I will let this go here. No point in arguing about this. It has been digressing from your original post too much.