Orthodoxy on divorce and annulments

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Catholic_Dude said:
You are putting secular authorities above religious ones. Marriage, divorce, adultery, legitimacy, etc all have religious components to them, to say that only Webster has the authority to define them is unacceptable and will come back to bite you.
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Amen, bro! They even choose to accept the Protestant definition of porneia over that of an ancient Greek father (Clement)! Selective re-definition to get around the Scripture.

Ron
 
VARC said:
Yeah why stop at 3? If the orthodox granted annulments, you could have 10 marriages and just go back and find a reason to invalidate 9 of them. All without a shread of repentance.
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Yes. How unfortunate.😦
 
VARC said:
The Orthodox are intent on making you face the realty of what you are saying. Catholics want to ignore the truth in this regard because the truth makes you feel uncomfortable. Good, you should be uncomfortable, because what you are saying is cruel.
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Yes. It is difficult to break through the barrier of denial.
 
Originally Posted by roncriss
“provide us with evidence of a single case where an annulment was granted for “irreconcilable differences”.”
Mickey said:
You want me to start naming names on the internet? Get real.
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As I suspected all you have is hearsay. You can’t cite a single case of a Catholic marriage being annulled because of irreconcilable differences because it simply isn’t done because irreconcilbale differences don’t make a marriage illegitimate in the first place.

Ron
 
Mickey said:
Vatican, Sep. 17, 2004 (CWNews.com) - Marriage tribunals in some countries are abusing Church laws regarding annulments, a leading Vatican authority has charged.
Tribunals in some countries (notably the United States) are quick to provide annulments on uncertain grounds, while in other countries the faithful find it difficult to pursue even clear-cut cases of nullity. That was the testimony of Joaquin Llobel, a canon-law instructor at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross and a member of the tribunal for the Apostolic Signatura.

It is scandalous. The couple says “I do” and “until death do us part” and then years later after some children they find out that they can appeal to the Roman Catholic Church to declare that they were never really married at all!
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No one has suggested that the process has never been abused. The recent Kennedy case where a tribunal’s decision was reversed by Rome is an example. We are discussing doctrine, not the fact that some Catholic tribunals do not follow it. But even these tribunals will pretend to find the marriage illegitimate for established reasons. They know darn well Rome would reverse an annullment for “irreconcilable differences”.

Ron
 
roncriss said:
No one has suggested that the process has never been abused. The recent Kennedy case where a tribunal’s decision was reversed by Rome is an example.
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Yeah. That’s a good one!
roncriss said:
We are discussing doctrine
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No. You are trying to justify the legalistic process by which a sacrament is declared to have never existed–yet the children are not affected. Sheesh!
roncriss said:
But even these tribunals will pretend to find the marriage illegitimate for established reasons. They know darn well Rome would reverse an annullment for “irreconcilable differences”.
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So the tribunals will get creative so that Rome does not reverse the annulment? Oh my!
 
Mickey said:
Again, you have proved nothing except that Rome can magically and legalistically go back and declare the sacrament of Holy Matrimony to be null and void–oftentimes for trivial reasons–even if it is a 20 year marriage with children!

The Orthodox Church counsels with love. If all efforts fail, and fallen human nature results in a separation, the Orthodox Church may grant an Ecclesiatical divorce. Then the parties involved show repentance and the Holy Church administers the medicine of love, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness.

This is the Christian way.

Amen.
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No, its the “Orthodox way”, which is contrary to the commandments of Christ and Paul. Christians follow the commandments of Christ. Deal with it.

Ron
 
roncriss said:
No one has suggested that the process has never been abused. The recent Kennedy case where a tribunal’s decision was reversed by Rome is an example. We are discussing doctrine, not the fact that some Catholic tribunals do not follow it. But even these tribunals will pretend to find the marriage illegitimate for established reasons. They know darn well Rome would reverse an annullment for “irreconcilable differences”.

Ron
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They don’t have to claim “irreconcilable differences.” All that needs to be claimed is that one of the partners was spiritually or emotionally immature. Under Catholic Canon law this is perfectly legitimate. But the vast majority of people in this world (including myself) are spiritually and emotioinally immature. So it follows that the vast majority of marriages that occur are likely null and void even if they haven’t made it to the annulment tribunal.
 
VARC said:
Nice dodge. I’m thinking in worldy categories because illegitimacy is a worldly issue. Christ was not the product of fornication. The incarnation was a miracle. According to you, couples whose marriages have been annulled were never married. Therefore, whether they knew it or not,they were commiting fornication. Those children being the product of fornication are bastard children.

I’m really kind of surprised that you guys are resisting the unavoidable conclusion of your annulments. Do you feel guilty for saying that those children are bastards?
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No, Varc, because it is you saying it, not me or the Catholic Church. You are the one hung up on attaching the lable of “bastard” to innocent children.

Ron
 
roncriss said:
Don’t change the subject. Was Christ illegitimate? Do you care? It makes no difference except in man’s law.
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Now you are becoming offensive in your tone. The Saviour’s virgin birth is sacred. It does not help your argument by consistently asking “if Christ was illegitimate”.

Lord have mercy!
 
melkite_orthodo said:
They don’t have to claim “irreconcilable differences.” All that needs to be claimed is that one of the partners was spiritually or emotionally immature. Under Catholic Canon law this is perfectly legitimate. But the vast majority of people in this world (including myself) are spiritually and emotioinally immature. So it follows that the vast majority of marriages that occur are likely null and void even if they haven’t made it to the annulment tribunal.
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You are correct, my brother in Christ.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif
 
VARC said:
The Orthodox are intent on making you face the realty of what you are saying. Catholics want to ignore the truth in this regard because the truth makes you feel uncomfortable. Good, you should be uncomfortable, because what you are saying is cruel.
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On the contrary, Varc, you are attempting to justify the Orthodox disregard for the commandments of Christ and Paul not to divorce your spouse and, if separated, to remain single. If you have no qualms about accepting such a church that is between you and the Lord. I can’t bring myself to accept such Orwellian logic.

Ron
 
roncriss said:
No, its the “Orthodox way”, which is contrary to the commandments of Christ and Paul.
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I suppose that if you write this enough times, you will eventually believe it. 😦
roncriss said:
Deal with it.
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Don’t get angry.

As a Christian, I attempt to keep the commandments. But the wretched sinner that I am–I often fall short. We are are a deranged and fallen people and I thank God every night for His infinite love, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness.
 
VARC said:
Yeah why stop at 3? If the orthodox granted annulments, you could have 10 marriages and just go back and find a reason to invalidate 9 of them. All without a shread of repentance. Can anyone say “Corban”
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Christ Himself ruled that bigamous marriages were excluded from the rule of not divorcing. So, yes, any number of illegitimate marriages would be just that, illegitimate. Its logic my friend. I notice you din’t answer my question for the obvious reason that you don’t like the implications of the answer: there is no logical reason why, if it is commpassionate and just to allow two divorces and re-marriages, it is any less compassionate and just to allow an infinite number of divorces and re-marriages. The Orthodox violate Christ’s commandment knowingly even if they try to limit the number of times out of guilt.

Ron
 
roncriss said:
No, Varc, because it is you saying it, not me or the Catholic Church. You are the one hung up on attaching the lable of “bastard” to innocent children.

Ron
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No that is what you are saying. You just don’t want to live up to it. Gulit prevents you, I suspect.
 
Mickey said:
Admission for what? That the NAB is a horrible translation? It surely is. Many in the Roman Catholic Church agree.
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LOL! And you Orthodox think the KJV is a good translation! It doesn’t matter what “many” in the Catholic Church think. The NAB is a reliable and accurate translation if less eloquent. So is the NJB (except for some of the gender-related changes) which I prefer for readability. You really need to study the Greek to discover all the nuances of the text. ANY translation will fail to capture all of them.

This issue of the mistranslation of porneia in the KJV and the slavish following by Orthodox (read “Protestant”) translations is a good example of the inferiority of the Orthodox translations.

Ron
 
roncriss said:
On the contrary, Varc, you are attempting to justify the Orthodox disregard for the commandments of Christ and Paul not to divorce your spouse and, if separated, to remain single. If you have no qualms about accepting such a church that is between you and the Lord. I can’t bring myself to accept such Orwellian logic.

Ron
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I have yet to even make a statement regarding the orthodox position. I have demonstrated that the catholics wants to have their cake and eat it too. Very hypocritical.
 
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