Orthodoxy on divorce and annulments

[roncriss]

You will believe as you may. I am not ignorant enough to give you names on an anonymous forum. You are a humorous man.

Note, everyone. He did not provide a single shred of evidence for a Catholic marriage tribunal annulling a marriage for “irreconcilable differences”. It simply doesn’t happen because such an annullment would be easily overturned.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

Yeah. That’s a good one!
No. You are trying to justify the legalistic process by which a sacrament is declared to have never existed–yet the children are not affected. Sheesh!
So the tribunals will get creative so that Rome does not reverse the annulment? Oh my!

Are you suggesting that nothing could cause a marriage to be illegitimate? Jesus Himself provided this exception, so it must be possible to have an illegitimate marriage.

Let’s posit the case of a couple discovering later that they were in fact brother and sister. Would Orthodoxy then consider such a marriage as legitimate or null from the start?

Ron

 

[roncriss]

They don’t have to claim “irreconcilable differences.” All that needs to be claimed is that one of the partners was spiritually or emotionally immature. Under Catholic Canon law this is perfectly legitimate. But the vast majority of people in this world (including myself) are spiritually and emotioinally immature. So it follows that the vast majority of marriages that occur are likely null and void even if they haven’t made it to the annulment tribunal.

As you must have read above the Church PRESUMES validity in all cases. It would require the annulment process to determine that a marriage was illegitimate.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

It doesn’t matter what “many” in the Catholic Church think.

That is always a good defense!

The NAB is a reliable and accurate translation if less eloquent.

Yeah I especially like the gender-neutral politically correct agenda.

I have spoke to many Catholic clergy who are not pleased with the NAB. But then I suppose you would say that it does not matter what they think either.

the inferiority of the Orthodox translations.

Now I am truly getting a real chuckle from your posts!

 

[Mickey]

Note, everyone. He did not provide a single shred of evidence for a Catholic marriage tribunal annulling a marriage for “irreconcilable differences”. It simply doesn’t happen because such an annullment would be easily overturned.

Note everyone: Mickey does not name names.

They have been injured enough already.

 

[roncriss]

Now you are becoming offensive in your tone. The Saviour’s virgin birth is sacred. It does not help your argument by consistently asking “if Christ was illegitimate”.

Lord have mercy!

Your tone has been offensive from the start but you don’t hear me crying about it. You simply don’t like the implications of the anwer. You want to lable children, but realize that you would have to do the same to Christ. You are good at evading direct questions. You are just not so good at having it reflect positively on your arguments.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

I have yet to even make a statement regarding the orthodox position. I have demonstrated that the catholics wants to have their cake and eat it too. Very hypocritical.

No, Varc, it is hypocrital to blame Catholics for following Christ’s commandments while attempting to excuse the Orthodox disregard for those commandments and the violation of them, even if only the arbitrary three times.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

Let’s posit the case of a couple discovering later that they were in fact brother and sister.

So the Catholic Church can only grant annulments if the couple is blood related? I did not know this!

 

[VARC]

No, Varc, it is hypocrital to blame Catholics for following Christ’s commandments while attempting to excuse the Orthodox disregard for those commandments and the violation of them, even if only the arbitrary three times.

Ron

It is hypocritical to say that the parents were fornicators who were never married and then turn around and tell the kids “don’t worry you’re not illegitimate”. That’s called talking out of both sides of your mouth. Something you obiviously don’t have a problem doing.

 

[Mickey]

Your tone has been offensive from the start but you don’t hear me crying about it.

Well, I certainly hope that a forum does not drive you to tears. I am sorry if you feel my tone is harsh. It is not meant to be. I am simply defending Christ’s Church against your constant barrage of insults and accusations.

 

[roncriss]

That is always a good defense!
Yeah I especially like the gender-neutral politically correct agenda.

I have spoke to many Catholic clergy who are not pleased with the NAB. But then I suppose you would say that it does not matter what they think either.
Now I am truly getting a real chuckle from your posts!

Right. “Many clergy” like clown masses and disobedience of the Magisterium. That doesn’t make it right. Let’s stick to established doctrine. I will only stand on Catholic doctrine if you will stand only on Orthodox doctrine. I won’t suggest, for example, that it is Orthodox doctrine that bishops can be KGB agents with mistresses and families on the sly.

Only doctrine is relevant. Otherwise Christianity itself would be disproved by the failure of all Christians to live up to the commandments sinlessly. I won’t defend sin.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

It is hypocritical to say that the parents were fornicators who were never married and then turn around and tell the kids “don’t worry you’re not illegitimate”. That’s called talking out of both sides of your mouth. Something you obiviously don’t have a problem doing.

Such confusion for the poor children. :crying:

 

[roncriss]

So the Catholic Church can only grant annulments if the couple is blood related? I did not know this!

Mickey, is this the level of debate I can expect from you in the future?

Ron

 

[roncriss]

It is hypocritical to say that the parents were fornicators who were never married and then turn around and tell the kids “don’t worry you’re not illegitimate”. That’s called talking out of both sides of your mouth. Something you obiviously don’t have a problem doing.

Varc, you are the one intent on attaching lables. I don’t tell the kids anything, especially that they are bastards since that wouldn’t be the case. So I’m not speaking out of any side of my mouth.

Ron

 

[VARC]

Varc, you are the one intent on attaching lables. I don’t tell the kids anything, especially that they are bastards since that wouldn’t be the case. So I’m not speaking out of any side of my mouth.

Ron

No, I’m intent on making you responsible for the implications of your beliefs. You are intent on hiding from them.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, is this the level of debate I can expect from you in the future?

Ronald, Can you say ad hominem?

 

[VARC]

Up till now I have not commented on the orthodox practice eclesiastical divorce. I think that its tragic but at least the orthodox christian who gets a divorce recognizes his/her sin. They are excommunicated for a period and must do pennace. If they are are granted a second marriage, their previous sin of divorce is at least confessed and prayers of pennace are in the marriage ceremony itself.

The bishops of the orthodox church will have to answer to God for allowing the divorcee to remarry and they are well aware of it. Their answer will be:

“We were making an accomodation for human weakness. We told him/her that it was wrong, punished them, and commanded that they confess their sin and pray for forgiveness. We took measures so that this accomadation was not abused such as, not allowing it a 2nd time and denying this accomodation to the guilty party. Lord have mercy on us if this was wrong as we had mercy on the victim of adultery.”

It is up to God to judge the bishops for their action. But at least they are being honest

Mickey, Isa,prodromos, since I am a newcomer to Orthodoxy, please correct any inaccuracies I have stated.

But as for the catholics…

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, Isa,prodromos, since I am a newcomer to Orthodoxy, please correct any inaccuracies I have stated.

Yes, my brother in Christ.

Here is the simplest summary I can provide:

The Orthodox Church recogonizes Ecclesiatical divorce as a terrible tragedy. But if a separation is inevitable, the Orthodox Church, through the healing love, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness of Jesus Christ, ministers to the injured parties. They are permitted to re-marry through a service of love and repentance.

The RCC retroactively nullifies the marriage by claiming that it never existed. The parties are permitted to re-marry and the children are told that their parents were never “really” married to begin with.

In cases of moral failure, the Gospel requires that we respond to people with compassion and forgiveness, not judgment and condemnation.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey

 

[melkite_orthodo]

Yes, my brother in Christ.

Here is the simplest summary I can provide:

The Orthodox Church recogonizes Ecclesiatical divorce as a terrible tragedy. But if a separation is inevitable, the Orthodox Church, through the healing love, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness of Jesus Christ, ministers to the injured parties. They are permitted to re-marry through a service of love and repentance.

The RCC retroactively nullifies the marriage by claiming that it never existed. The parties are permitted to re-marry and the children are told that their parents were never “really” married to begin with.

In cases of moral failure, the Gospel requires that we respond to people with compassion and forgiveness, not judgment and condemnation.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey

Mickey, that is it in a nutshell!

 

[VARC]

As for the catholics…I find the annulment procedure to be utterly reprehensible.

Ron is correct when he says that there isn’t a “no fault” annulment that can be granted. However, annulments are granted on the grounds that one of the spouses lacks "knowledge or understanding of the full implications of marriage ". This condition could invalidate almost every marriage in the church even my own. It is the condition that nullifies most of the 60,000 invalid unions per year in the U.S. alone. It is beyond naive to say that 120000 catholics marry their cousin every year.

Here is a typical outrageous scenario:

After 15 years of marriage, a man decides he is no longer happy with wife and starts an adulterous relationship with secrteary. After he divorces her and leaves his children, he states that before he got married he didn’t really know what he was getting into. Because he lacked the “knowledge or understanding of the full implications of marriage”, a panel of canon lawyers declares that he was never truly married, his ‘union’ with his ‘wife’ was fornication, and their children are illegitimate. And now he is free to marry anyone he wants including the homewrecking secretary.

While the orthodox christian is praying for forgiveness at his 2nd wedding, the catholic goes to his 2nd wedding with his head held high while the ceremony alludes to a pure and blessed union.

I can see the image of the publican and the pharisee

Orthodox: God have mercy on me a sinner
Catholic: Thank you, Lord, for allowing me to keep your commandments concerning marriage by having your church declaring my previous union fraudulent(CORBAN). Thanks be to you that I’m not like that sinful orthdox who divorces and remarries.

It’s utterly dispicable but happens all the time because the RCC declares marriages null for lack of knowledge or understanding of the full implications of marriage. The hypocracy is disgusting.