Orthodoxy, Papacy

[JohnVIII]

How many extra votes do they get at the synod meeting?

John

In the case of the Russian Church they get one extra. The first hierarch gets 2 votes.

 

[josephdaniel29]

In the case of the Russian Church they get one extra. The first hierarch gets 2 votes.

Granted, even though I don’t think you’re correct, I do believe we Orthodox would have no problem at all uniting with the Catholic Church if the pope only got 2 votes instead of the only vote that really matters!

In Christ
Joe

 

[JohnVIII]

Quite frankly John the idea that each successive Bishop of Rome is somehow anointed as an Apostle is more than a little ridiculous. Did you make that up or is that an actual teaching of the Catholic; that the pope is not a bishop, but actually a living Apostle; and that because of that the bishops of the Church are subservient to him?

I made it up, of course. I don’t think it’s ridiculous though. It is very clear to me that the Bishop of Rome does indeed have a higher role (a universal role) than any other bishop. I’m still trying to figure out how to harmonize this with 20+ years in Eastern Orthodox teaching.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I’m still trying to figure out how to harmonize this with 20+ years in Eastern Orthodox teaching.

That’s because they can’t be harmonized my brother.

In Christ
Joe

 

[JohnVIII]

Papa = Father

Papa = Pope

Petra = Rock

Petra ≠ Papa

Petra and papa are two different words meaning two different things.

In Christ
Joe

All hens are chickens, all roosters are chickens, therefore all hens are roosters. :whacky:

 

[JohnVIII]

JohnVIII;7013941:

I’m still trying to figure out how to harmonize this with 20+ years in Eastern Orthodox teaching.

That’s because they can’t be harmonized my brother.

In Christ
Joe

I’ll find a way. How’s this chronology for starters:

The Chair of St. Peter
The Popes in Chronological Order

1. St. Peter (33-68, The Apostolic See was established in Rome upon the death of St. Peter in A.D. 68.)
2. St. Linus (56-67, Appointed first bishop of Rome by St. Paul in A.D. 56. The Liberian Catalogue indicates that St. Linus’s term of office lasted twelve years, four months, and twelve days. The dates given are A.D. 56 to A.D. 67. St. Paul dies in Rome in A.D. 64)
3. St. Cletus (also called Anencletus) (67-89)
4. St. Clement I (68-99, St. Peter selected St. Clement to be his successor and hold the Apostolic Keys upon his death in A.D. 68. But out of respect for Bishop Cletus, St. Clement said, “I retire, I depart, let the people of God be in peace”. But Bishop Cletus appointed St. Clement to assume the See of Rome after his death, not as his successor for St. Clement already outranked St. Cletus, but as the direct successor of St. Peter. St. Clement assumes the See of Rome in A.D. 89.)
5. St. Evaristus (99-105)

 

[Nine_Two]

Where do you think the word Papa comes from?

Father.

In Latin, rock is silex, not even close to pope. While the Greek word for “rock” and “father” are similar, neither one is close to “Pope”. And as I said, Alexandria used it before Rome.

 

[josie_L]

It’s not baseless. You do in fact do these things. To be fair, we ought to have one standard–either we treat each other with courtesy and tolerance, recognizing that this is a fairly informal discussion, or we each hold ourselves to normal scholarly standards with regard to the use of sources. That will slow down the discussion for both of us quite a bit, but that might not be a bad thing. The problem is that you have no compunction about simply regurgitating standard Catholic online apologetics. I don’t trust the Protestant equivalents of the sources you are using (Webster, etc.), and frankly I don’t necessarily trust the Orthodox equivalents either (though to the credit of the Orthodox, they don’t have as many handy compendia of polemical talking points!). I do my own research, within time constraints and mostly relying on online sources or what I have in my office. When I don’t have the time or interest to go into something for myself, I refer you to serious scholarly sources that do. If you find that approach unreasonable, then perhaps we should stop trying to have a dialogue, and you and the Protestants and the Orthodox can all throw your rival prooftexts at each other until Jesus comes back.

Yes, it is baseless Edwin for you haven’t shown or even attempted to show that I’ve taken any quotes out of context, although you’re good at saying that I do. And since we’re on the subject of taking things out of context let me remind you of the fact that you’re the one who quoted Honorius incorrectly. And although I can accept you giving me scolarly sources (some of which have been questionable), I do not appreciate the fact that when I ask for evidence from Tradition and/or Scripture you give me secondary sources instead.

Yes, and what if he wasn’t? What if won’t get us far. What do the actual sources suggest? Does anything about Honorius’s letter actually suggest that he’s only talking about “one will” for Jesus’ human nature? Does anything actually suggest that his intentions are radically different than those of the Eastern Monothelites?

For the last time Edwin, Honorius was not condemned as a Monothelite, i.e., Pope St. Leo II clarified what manner of heretic he was.

Irenaeus said otherwise (Eusebius 3.24.13):

Then look up Eusebius, Church History 5, 23, NPNF2, 1:241-42, better yet let me provide it to you:

"Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account [at the behest of Pope Victor], and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree, that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day, and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. There is still extant a writing of those who were then assembled in Palestine, over whom Theophilus, bishop of Caesarea, and Narcissus, bishop of Jerusalem, presided. And there is also another writing extant of those who were assembled at Rome to consider the same question, which bears the name of Bishop Victor; also of the bishops in Pontus over whom Palmas, as the oldest, presided; and of the parishes in Gaul in which Irenaeus was bishop, and of those in Osthoene and the cities there; and a personal letter of Bacchylus, bishop of the church of Corinth, and of a great many others, who uttered the same opinion and judgment, and cast the same vote And that which has been given above was their unanimous decision."

They were all of one consent (apart from Asia) Edwin in that the Resurrection should be celebrated (and this for the whole Church) on the Lord’s Day only. Moreover, the synod and assemblies in question were initiated by Pope St. Victor because he would need to ensure (as supreme guardian of the faith) that the whole Church was unified on this matter. This episode which you believe disproves Pope St. Victor’s authority in fact affirms it.

We don’t know for sure that the term is being used in the same sense after the lapse of two centuries (Epiphanius might help), and if it is, they may have been condemned as disturbers of the Church’s unity in the wake of I Nicea.

Ok, Edwin this is a possibility but can you please provide more information.

Actually, it was about what the Fathers believed and practiced. Irenaeus is often cited as a believer in Roman primacy. For my purposes, it isn’t necessary to show that he was right–my point is simply that his words in Against Heresies should be interpreted in the light of his willingness to disagree with the Pope on the question of what practices should be considered heresy.

No, he questioned his decision to excommunicate (not his authority to do so) the Church of Asia, i.e., he disagreed because it would cause schism.

 

[josie_L]

How so?

They’re saying the same thing.

 

[josie_L]

So you know better than Pope Shenouda huh?

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

The Church of Alexandria, founded according to the constant tradition of both East and West by St. Mark the Evangelist, was the centre from which Christianity spread throughout all Egypt, the nucleus of the powerful Patriarchate of Alexandria.

Source

Yes, it was founded by St. Mark the Evangelist but it was refered to as a Petrine see, i.e., St. Mark went to Alexandria to found a bishopric because Peter sent him so he is the indirect founder of that see (hence the Petrine reference). Moreover, you missed my point Pope Shenouda is a successor to the apostles but not literally a successor of Mark’s office (Mark’s office is no different than that of the other apostles except Peter’s) in the manner that the bishop of Rome is literally the successor to Peter’s unique office(steward/keybearer).

I didn’t take you out of context, I simply took Catholic ecclesiology to it’s only logical conclusion.

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate.

Then you take Catholic ecclesiology out of context because it is RIDICULOUS to believe that the present bishops within the Catholic Church (might help if you saw them in action)have no authority or as you said are glorified priests in fancy vestments.

There can only be one bishop per parish. If the pope’s authority is “episcopal and immediate”, then he is the true bishop and the other “bishops” exercise authority only so far as the real bishop (the pope) allows them to. If they don’t have inherent episcopal authority I’m not sure what else you would call them?

No, they are all real bishops that act and exercise their authority in communion with each other but under the guidance of the Pope.

 

[prodromos]

In the case of the Russian Church they get one extra. The first hierarch gets 2 votes.

What a load of bollucks!

I’m still waiting for Josie to chime in and explain how a patriarch has more authority than another bishop.

John

 

[rinnie]

Father.

In Latin, rock is silex, not even close to pope. While the Greek word for “rock” and “father” are similar, neither one is close to “Pope”. And as I said, Alexandria used it before Rome.

You are not worth my time arguing with. But for anyone who is interested I will show them that I am correct.

The word Pope comes from the greek word Pappas pronounced Papa which means Father. Instead of fighting over it why don’t you look it up. You will see that I am right.

 

[prodromos]

You are not worth my time arguing with. But for anyone who is interested I will show them that I am correct.

The word Pope comes from the greek word Pappas pronounced Papa which means Father. Instead of fighting over it why don’t you look it up. You will see that I am right.

What you in fact claimed was the following:

Well like yeah, starting with Peter. Simon was changed to Peter Peter translates to Rock,** Rock translates to Papa,** Papa translates to Pope.

Rock does not in any way translate to Papa, which is what you have been called on so no, you are not correct.

John

 

[rinnie]

Of course he did, so did the other twelve Apostles.

When did Jesus say any authority was “passed down” for that matter?

I don’t think your idea can be plausibly defended from Scripture of the fathers. The Apostles appointed presbyters to oversee (episcopos) the various communities. Can you give me any examples of Church Fathers calling the pope an “Apostle”? Can you point to any Catholic document that calls the pope an Apostle? What are the implications of this? If each pope is also an Apostles is there some 265 sets of keys to the Kingdom? Do the popes cease to be Apostles and lose the keys after they die or do they continue to be an Apostles and keep them?

In Christ
Joe

CCC 1556 To fulfill their exalted mission the apostles were endowed by Christ with a special OUTPOURING of the Holy Spirit comming upon them. And by the IMPOSITION OF HANDS which is TRANSMITTED DOWN to OUR DAY through Episcopal consecration.

Now can you show me where the Power of the Holy Spirit that was transmitted today to the Pontiff’s and Pastors is any less then the Holy Spirit passed from the day of Pentecost. You have refused to answer this question for me.

And that is proof of the authority passed down by the Apostles from Christ. Now you must prove that is also is false.

This Sacrament is called Holy Orders and is in the CCC 1562-1600

 

[rinnie]

I made it up, of course. I don’t think it’s ridiculous though. It is very clear to me that the Bishop of Rome does indeed have a higher role (a universal role) than any other bishop. I’m still trying to figure out how to harmonize this with 20+ years in Eastern Orthodox teaching.

You were correct John.

The word Apostle comes from the greek word Apostollos or sent forth as an Ambassador of the Gospel. An Apostle is a Minister sent directly by God to do a Specific work. The Pope and Bishops with him are called to do such work. As Priests could also fit this discription.

 

[rinnie]

What you in fact claimed was the following:

Rock does not in any way translate to Papa, which is what you have been called on so no, you are not correct.

John

How can that be possible John when Papa and Pappas means the same as Rock which means Father. Do you deny that Papa means Father.

 

[prodromos]

How can that be possible John when Papa and Pappas means the same as Rock which means Father.

We will all be thrilled when you actually present some evidence for your ridiculous claim.
“Rock” does not mean “Papa”
“Rock” does not mean “Papas”
“Rock” does not mean “Father” either.
Follow your own advice and look it up for yourself, then you will see you are wrong.

Do you deny that Papa means Father.

No, and neither has anyone else who has engaged you regarding your etymological fantasy. This is a complete strawman.

John

 

[rinnie]

We will all be thrilled when you actually present some evidence for your ridiculous claim.
“Rock” does not mean “Papa”
“Rock” does not mean “Papas”
“Rock” does not mean “Father” either.
Follow your own advice and look it up for yourself, then you will see you are wrong.
No, and neither has anyone else who has engaged you regarding your etymological fantasy. This is a complete strawman.

John

Fine then prove me rock.

In the Jewish Bible. Psalm 118:22

Quote The Very ROCK that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.

Now you prove to me that the ROCK is not GOD THE FATHER. Show me where God the Father was not very Rock that was rejected and crucified on the cross.

When you can prove to me that Jesus Christ and God the Father are not the ROCK that the builders rejected and Rock did not mean Father then we can talk. Now it is your turn Mr Strawman!

 

[Nine_Two]

Fine then prove me rock.

In the Jewish Bible. Psalm 118:22

Quote The Very ROCK that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.

Now you prove to me that the ROCK is not GOD THE FATHER. Show me where God the Father was not very Rock that was rejected and crucified on the cross.

When you can prove to me that Jesus Christ and God the Father are not the ROCK that the builders rejected and Rock did not mean Father then we can talk. Now it is your turn Mr Strawman!

Wow, either that was some mad backtracking or now you’re claiming the pope is Jesus and God.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Now you prove to me that the ROCK is not GOD THE FATHER. Show me where God the Father was not very Rock that was rejected and crucified on the cross.

Rinnie, I hope that you are not saying that God the Father was crucified on the cross, since that is a Trinitarian error. God the Son, Jesus Christ, was crucified on the cross, not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. They are distinct Persons, remember.

Also, I think you’re a little confused on this thread. Earlier, you stated “Simon was changed to Peter Peter translates to Rock, Rock translates to Papa, Papa translates to Pope.”, and “Father is the same as Rock, just like Papa is the same as Father, Just as Papa is the same as Pope. They all mean the same thing for goodness sakes. Papa Pope Father, Rock all the same word.”

Unfortunately, this is not correct. Yes, Peter translates to Rock, and Papa “translates” to Pope. Rock does not translate to Papa. They are two different words. “Father” is not the same as “Rock”, though “Papa” is the same as “Father”, and “Pope”. Remember, the words for “Rock” and “Father/Papa” are two different words. Everyone agrees that Papa means Father. The problem is that you’re equating Rock and Father/Papa, when they are two different words from the Greek.