Orthodoxy, Papacy

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What you have stated here is plainly in error as your own Catholic brethren have confirmed. You will not find anywhere or any time where the Church has taught that God the Father is the Rock and especially not that God the Father was crucified on the cross. The Church teaches that Christ is the Rock, but it does not follow that “Christ” therefore means “rock”. Christ is from the Greek for the Hebrew word “Messiah” which means “annointed one”. So even if what you claimed above was true, it would still not make the word “Father” mean “rock” or “rock” mean “father”.
Done! So are you ready to talk?
Sure. The Revelation of the Trinity begins when Jesus told us that he is Gods Son. Jesus teaches that God is not only the creator of the universe but also the Father of the eternally begotton son, who BECAME ONE with us as the GOD-Man Jesus Christ.

As the gospel of Matt states No One knows the Father except the Son and anyone to who the Son Wishes to REVEAl him.

There is only ONE GOD! One God made up of 3 persons. That is the Trinity. The 3 divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire. Yet each divine person is really distinct from one another. That is why we say that God has one divine nature and three divine persons.
 
Here is something I’d like you to read:

credo.stormloader.com/Ecumenic/ethnikos.htm
It has already been pointed out that no one knows who this Pavlov is, and no one knows who really composed the piece he supposedly ‘dug up’ somewhere.

It wasn’t known at all for the 1000 years from the days of the REAL saint Methodios until the late nineteenth century when it was published. With all of the contentious relations between the Orthodox east and the Papal west, it is indeed surprising that it did* not* surface as a polemic tool before then.

It is probably a fake. Which is how I will regard it until you can show us any evidence of it’s existence before publication by “Mr. Pavlov”, or you can show us where the original is kept.

At least if you can identify this Pavlov we would be making some headway.
 
A litmus test of a true religion from a Catholic perspective is abortion.
What Church would allow abortion?
Plenty do , but not the Eastern Orthodox or Catholics.

But lets look at Divorce:
Does the practice of allowing divorce and remarriage 3 times within
the Eastern Orthodox Church resemble Gods Truth or religious accomodation?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_the_Eastern_Orthodox_Church

Divorce

Divorce is permitted in the Orthodox Church for various reasons. The more usual divorce occurs under the pastoral guidance of the spiritual director of the spouses when all attempts at salvaging a marriage have been exhausted. In such cases, remarriage may be possible but there is a special rite for a second marriage which contains a penitential element for the dissolution of the first, i.e. some of the more joyful aspects are removed.[1] Marriage is permitted up to three times in Orthodoxy but each divorce necessitates a short period of Excommunication.

Another type of divorce is what is known as an “ecclesiastical divorce”, which does not signify the breakdown of the relationship but is a step taken for the sake of the theosis of the spouses and with the full support and blessing of the Church. This type of divorce may only take place where there is mutual agreement between the two spouses, and is usually carried out in cases where the husband is selected to be consecrated a bishop (as Orthodox bishops are monastic) or where one or both spouses wish to otherwise adopt the monastic lifestyle.
 
But that particular canon was not accepted/confirmed by Rome either (in fact you provided the canon which proves the necessity of Rome’s assent on all matters of consequence). And as I mentioned earlier, canon 28 was struck down by Pope St. Leo the Great (there are ancient historians who have spoken of only 27 canons) so there could be no reaffirming it. By the way, this particular issue of putting Constantinople second over the Petrine sees of Alexandria and Antioch just confirms how entrenched caesaropapism was in the East, i.e., the Emperor of Constantinople trying to control the Church (a territory much vaster than his empire) through the see of Constantinople.

Whatever he defined ex-cathedra would most certainly be supported by Tradition or was/is part of Tradition/Scripture, i.e., the deposit of faith (which in a sense is a consensus of the Church). Either way, the pope has always consulted the episcopate even for statements in which he spoke ex-cathedra (so you see he’s not a despot). 👍
Josie,

Thanks for your post.

Is it true, as the Orthodox I know of claim, that the Pope bribed the Patriarchs, the Eastern Patriarchs, as the Council of Florence?

(also, do you know if they all signed the council?)
 
I’m with you on that one, rinnie. Anyone who denies it has an agenda and their head in the sand.

The Lord did not come to teach denial!! He came to reveal the truth and the fulness of Christian truth resides in the Catholic Church. It’s been like that for a loooooong time.
I guess St. Augustine had an agenda when he wrote in his retractations that the passage referred to Christ as the rock rather than Peter. I guess he had his head in the sand.
 
Fine then prove me rock.

In the Jewish Bible. Psalm 118:22

Quote The Very ROCK that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.

Now you prove to me that the ROCK is not GOD THE FATHER. Show me where God the Father was not very Rock that was rejected and crucified on the cross.

When you can prove to me that Jesus Christ and God the Father are not the ROCK that the builders rejected and Rock did not mean Father then we can talk. Now it is your turn Mr Strawman!:mad:
Well, here is something that Catholics, Orthodox, and even Protestants can agree on: this is first class heresy! Confusion of the persons!
 
I guess St. Augustine had an agenda when he wrote in his retractations that the passage referred to Christ as the rock rather than Peter. I guess he had his head in the sand.
It seems that way to me, Jimmy. If the passage (Mt. 16:18) meant Jesus it would read, “You are Peter BUT upon this rock, etc.” It reads, as you know, “You are Peter AND upon this rock, etc.” ‘And’ is a connecting word joining, in this case, ‘rock’ and ‘Peter.’ Its meaning is clear.

I don’t know about an agenda, but Augustine had a little trouble making up his mind about several points of doctrine. In his day there were lots of theories floating around, lots of discussions over centuries. The Lord said the Spirit would guide the Church to the truth, not drop it in her lap.😉
 
It seems that way to me, Jimmy. If the passage (Mt. 16:18) meant Jesus it would read, “You are Peter BUT upon this rock, etc.” It reads, as you know, “You are Peter AND upon this rock, etc.” ‘And’ is a connecting word joining, in this case, ‘rock’ and ‘Peter.’ Its meaning is clear.

I don’t know about an agenda, but Augustine had a little trouble making up his mind about several points of doctrine. In his day there were lots of theories floating around, lots of discussions over centuries. The Lord said the Spirit would guide the Church to the truth, not drop it in her lap.😉
I am not even trying to argue the proper interpretation of the passage. I am simply making a point that if you are going to make a statement like I quoted then you have to reconcile that statement with the fact that many of the fathers interpreted the passage in the way that you are saying implies an agenda.
 
I didn’t ask for proof that it could, I asked for proof that it doesn’t.

At any rate your wordgames are dishonest, you play on complex theological themes, oversimplify them for the purpose of your games, and then challenge anyone to untangle them.
And I have showed you God the Father. Or are you going to say the God is not the Father also.

2 Sam 32 For who is God by Yahewh
who is ROCK But OUR GOD
this God who girds me with strength
who makes my way free from blame.

I do not see what we are arguing about. There is but one God who has revealed himself in the 3 Persons. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

They are all called the ROCK of our Salvation.

I was asked how Pope came out of Father and I showed that. I showed that Peter in Aramaic means Rock.

And Rock in Greek translates to Papa (which means Father) I used to call my own Father Papa. And from Pappas or papa comes Pope. I did what was asked of me.
 
From what I recall, St. Augustine’s retractation on the issue says nothing about the Aramaic. It simply explains that he retracts his previous view regarding the passage for the interpretation that Christ is the rock.
 
But that particular canon was not accepted/confirmed by Rome either (in fact you provided the canon which proves the necessity of Rome’s assent on all matters of consequence). And as I mentioned earlier, canon 28 was struck down by Pope St. Leo the Great (there are ancient historians who have spoken of only 27 canons) so there could be no reaffirming it. By the way, this particular issue of putting Constantinople second over the Petrine sees of Alexandria and Antioch just confirms how entrenched caesaropapism was in the East, i.e., the Emperor of Constantinople trying to control the Church (a territory much vaster than his empire) through the see of Constantinople.
Quite frankly Josie Pope Leo’s supposed “veto” of the 28th canon doesn’t prove much. First of all the rest of the Church continued to behave as thought the canon were in effect, even going so far as to reaffirm it at the Council of Trullo. Even today the canon is still in effect in the Orthodox Church. If it had been vetoed at what point after the schism did we add it back into the canons?

Second, and most importantly, just the fact that the canon was added in the first place completely undercuts the claims of the Roman Catholic Church. If, as Rome says, it has always been accepted that the Roman Church governs by divine right, even one instance of the Church behaving otherwise completely disproves that claim. Do you think that the bishops at Chalcedon just pulled the ideas in the 28th canon out of thin air? What about the bishops at Trullo?

The scenario that you put forward to us is this; that the bishops of the Church at Chalcedon put forward the idea that Rome’s position was because of the city’s secular power, and that because of Constantinople’s position as the capital it should have “equal privliges” with Old Rome; and that the Bishop of Rome vetoed that idea. What it seems to me is that instead of Rome’s authority by divine right always being accepted, as modern Catholics would have us believe, the only person who had such an exalted view of the papacy was the pope himself! 😃

In Christ
Joe
 
And Rock in Greek translates to Papa (which means Father) I used to call my own Father Papa. And from Pappas or papa comes Pope. I did what was asked of me.
There’s where you are wrong. Rock does not translate to papa, it translates to petros.
 
And I have showed you God the Father. Or are you going to say the God is not the Father also.

2 Sam 32 For who is God by Yahewh
who is ROCK But OUR GOD
this God who girds me with strength
who makes my way free from blame.

I do not see what we are arguing about. There is but one God who has revealed himself in the 3 Persons. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

They are all called the ROCK of our Salvation.

I was asked how Pope came out of Father and I showed that. I showed that Peter in Aramaic means Rock.

And Rock in Greek translates to Papa (which means Father) I used to call my own Father Papa. And from Pappas or papa comes Pope. I did what was asked of me.
St. Cyril of Alexandria, in his On the Unity of Christ, makes a distinction between titles that specify particular functions and those that specify individual realities. He adds that titles of divine perfection are common to all three persons of the Trinity.

There is only one God, the Father Almighty; there is only one Son, the Incarnate Word; there is only one Holy Spirit, the Paraclete. These titles cannot be applied to the other two persons without confusion, as they indicate specific, individual realities.

However, in using words like creator, redeemer, teacher, shepherd, truth, life a certain function is implied that is common to more than one person. “Rock” seems to fit into this category. Each is rock in providing support, protection and guidance.
 
Quite frankly Josie Pope Leo’s supposed “veto” of the 28th canon doesn’t prove much. First of all the rest of the Church continued to behave as thought the canon were in effect, even going so far as to reaffirm it at the Council of Trullo. Even today the canon is still in effect in the Orthodox Church. If it had been vetoed at what point after the schism did we add it back into the canons?

Second, and most importantly, just the fact that the canon was added in the first place completely undercuts the claims of the Roman Catholic Church. If, as Rome says, it has always been accepted that the Roman Church governs by divine right, even one instance of the Church behaving otherwise completely disproves that claim. Do you think that the bishops at Chalcedon just pulled the ideas in the 28th canon out of thin air? What about the bishops at Trullo?

The scenario that you put forward to us is this; that the bishops of the Church at Chalcedon put forward the idea that Rome’s position was because of the city’s secular power, and that because of Constantinople’s position as the capital it should have “equal privliges” with Old Rome; and that the Bishop of Rome vetoed that idea. What it seems to me is that instead of Rome’s authority by divine right always being accepted, as modern Catholics would have us believe, the only person who had such an exalted view of the papacy was the pope himself! 😃
The bishops to which you refer to were but 160 or so (out of 600) that were present at Chalcedon during the last session, and they all coincidentally were connected to Constantinople or thereabouts, the actual words spoken by Anatolius (patriarch of Constantinople) conveys the reality of the situation during Chalcedon:

As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople, let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness. – Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132 (on the subject of canon 28 of Chalcedon).

The fact of the matter is that those bishops who concocted canon 28 did so probably at the behest of the emperor, moreover, they erred in believing that Rome had the primacy because of political reasons (Ravenna and Milan were also capitals of emperors yet they never were given a special place within the Church). What you fail to see is that Pope St. Leo did veto (he even wrote a letter to the empress) the canon, and it was accepted, as such even historians and Church fathers wrote about 27 canons rather than 28. Here is a list of them:

This is supported by all the Greek historians, such as Theodore the Lector (writing in 551 AD), John Skolastikas (writing in 550 AD), Dionysius Exegius (also around 550 AD); and by Roman Popes like Pope St. Gelasius (c. 495) and Pope Symmachus (c. 500) – all of whom speak of only 27 Canons of Chalcedon.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a35.htm

Moreover, if Rome’s primacy was based solely on political reasons why then did Constantinople still remain second to Rome? You would think that Constantinople would have superceded Rome if based primarily on political stature, but it isn’t, and that is why it will always remain second to Rome, i.e., it was Peter who was chief amongst the apostles, it is Rome who will be chief see within the Church. If you cannot accept that then it is you who deny Tradition/Scripture not I.

Furthermore, Trullo (which was presided over by Emperor Justinian II) was not accepted by the West, although the emperor went to great lenghts to have him confirm it:

Pope Sergius I protested the council, and refused to sign the canons. At Sergius’s refusal, Justinian dispatched a military delegation to Rome to induce Sergius to sign; the imperial army at Ravenna, however, composed mainly of native Italians, rallied to support the Roman Pontiff, marching on Rome.757–768).[2]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinisext_Council

The Trullo council quite frankly is a farce, and it is a prime example of the Emperor’s power in the East.
 
It has already been pointed out that no one knows who this Pavlov is, and no one knows who really composed the piece he supposedly ‘dug up’ somewhere.

It wasn’t known at all for the 1000 years from the days of the REAL saint Methodios until the late nineteenth century when it was published. With all of the contentious relations between the Orthodox east and the Papal west, it is indeed surprising that it did* not* surface as a polemic tool before then.

It is probably a fake. Which is how I will regard it until you can show us any evidence of it’s existence before publication by “Mr. Pavlov”, or you can show us where the original is kept.

At least if you can identify this Pavlov we would be making some headway.
It is for you to prove it wrong, not I.
 
Josie,

Thanks for your post.

Is it true, as the Orthodox I know of claim, that the Pope bribed the Patriarchs, the Eastern Patriarchs, as the Council of Florence?

(also, do you know if they all signed the council?)
Yes, the representatives (the actual patriarchs could not be there) for Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem all signed as did Constantinople (the actual patriarch was present), and, of course, Rome. As for believing that they signed because of bribery, there is no proof whatsoever for this, in fact, it would seem rather odd considering it took decades before the East officially repudiated Florence.
 
Yes, the representatives (the actual patriarchs could not be there) for Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem all signed as did Constantinople (the actual patriarch was present), and, of course, Rome. As for believing that they signed because of bribery, there is no proof whatsoever for this, in fact, it would seem rather odd considering it took decades before the East officially repudiated Florence.
Thanks very much for the information.

That is very curious. So I wonder how this idea started, since I read it on an Orthodox site and heard it directly on a forum. The site also made it sound like when the Council was over, the people immediatelhy rejected the compromise/council decision and chose rather to suffer at the hands of the Muslim armies or something like that.
 
Thanks very much for the information.

That is very curious. So I wonder how this idea started, since I read it on an Orthodox site and heard it directly on a forum. The site also made it sound like when the Council was over, the people immediatelhy rejected the compromise/council decision and chose rather to suffer at the hands of the Muslim armies or something like that.
The Council was widely rejected by the people and the monks when the delegates returned home and told their story. Many of the delegates repented. From what I’ve read, the emperor stood to the union until the city was conquered.
 
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