OSAS and ephesians 4:30

[sandusky]

teachccd:

Find me one Early Church Father who preached OSAS in the first 1500 years of Christianity and post the reference here. I will eat my keyboard.

This contemporary idea is neither Biblical or sustantiated in the Church’s earliest extra biblical references.

by Ludwig Ott

1. GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

De fide = “of faith” - dogmas are absolutely binding on all Catholics]

This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it . . . The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq: . . . cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq. . . . Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence.While the Catholic Church says that this is not true of everyone, it is true of some.

OSAS, or not? You decide

 

[Pax]

Generally speaking the bad act that you are referring to includes choosing that act over God. This has been compared in scripture to Esau exchanging his inheritance for a bowl of porage.

When we choose something over and in place of God we indeed cut ourselves off from God and our inheritance. Read the parable of the Prodigal Son. In this parable we see a member of the household, which is what we are as Christians, leave the household and squander his inheritance. This is exactly what we do when we sin mortally. At the end of the parable when the son returns in repentence, his father forgives and embraces him. He also says that “his son who was dead is now alive again.”

If anyone is interested I will supply a set of more than sixty passages of scripture that deny OSAS. I will also supply an essay that refutes the misunderstandings of the two main passages of scripture used by OSAS believers to support the doctrine. Simply send me your email address via a PM and I will supply them to you.

 

[deb1]

But what if you died before you were able to seek absolution. Would God really make you spend forever in hell

God, who can certainly understand my heart, would take into account my intent to get absolution.

I have to wonder why someone who spent sixty years struggling to be a good Christian would suddenly and knowingly commit a mortal sin. It seems unlikely, doesn’t it?

 

[christcnection1]

That,s the point, deb1. God will not lose any part of his inheritance because of what you do because you can never lose your salvation.
Suppose that you lived you whole life like sixty years faithful to God and then one day you sinned real bad ( the kind of sin that Catholic beleive would cause you to lose your salvation) and minutes later you were killed. Do you think that God would take away your salvation for one bad act?

Yes, if one refuses to repent or seek forgiveness. We must endure to the end.

I would be curious how you interpret these verses.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

We must love Him. He said if you love me, you will obey my commandments. If we refuse to obey His will by not repenting and seeking forgiveness, we can say Lord, Lord, but we will not enter into His Kingdom.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Romans 11:22)

You can only be “cut off” if you were at some point attached. We must remain in His kindness. This includes loving Him and following Him. God is not pleased with evil-doers.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12)

Why fear? Why trembling? Why work it out? It isn’t it already finished? (Well, yes, just not the way you understand it.)

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galations 5:4)

You can only fall from grace if you were in grace to begin with.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, **
** 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.(Hebrews 6:4-8)

That doesn’t sound too pleasant.

Continued…

 

[christcnection1]

Continued…

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Revelations 3:5)

He can’t blot out your name unless it was already in the book of life.

** 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. (Matthew 15:6-10)**

You must abide in His love. If you do not, you are cast into the fire. How do you abide? You keep His commandments. What if you don’t obey His commands until the end? I don’t want to find out.

14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.(Matthew 6:13-15)

What will happen if you do not forgive others? I don’t want to find out.

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’[d] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[e]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”(Matthew 19:16-21)

If we want to enter eternal life we must obey the commandments. That sounds reasonable enough. What if I stop following His commandment a few days before I die? Well, I personally don’t want to find out.

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us (2 Timothy 2:10-12)

What happens if we start to deny Him and then we die? I’m not sure I want to find out.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.(Philippians 38-14)

Does this sound like OSAS Absolute Assurance? I don’t think so.

Sorry my friend, but I cannot buy into OSAS. I wish I could; I just can’t bring myself to do it. If I did, I would have no assurance that I am accurately interpreting the Bible.

Hey, but I guess we can agree to disagree. I just encourage you to keep loving and following our Lord the best you can. I hope to see you on the other side.

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204fea2.asp

 

[teachccd]

I hope you didn’t misunderstand. I totally agree with you.

Have you ever heard that MP3 by John Martignoni? It’s also in cd form, and great to give out to OSASers.

I know fully that we agree. I have a habit of using a quote to continue the thought and it seems as if I’m implying that the poster is at odds with me. I did it again. I will look up that MP3. thank you and God Bless…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

by Ludwig Ott1) GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide) De fide = “of faith” - dogmas are absolutely binding on all Catholics]This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it . . . The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq: . . . cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq. . . . Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence.While the Catholic Church says that this is not true of everyone, it is true of some.

OSAS, or not? You decide

Did you read the first paragraph of your reference?? FREE WILL not Calvinism…No this does not suffice as an ancient teaching of OSAS . Sorry, I read the whole article and OSAS does not apply here. Apples and Oranges. Read it again…teachccd

 

[Pax]

by Ludwig Ott

1. GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

De fide = “of faith” - dogmas are absolutely binding on all Catholics]

This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it . . . The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq: . . . cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq. . . . Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence.While the Catholic Church says that this is not true of everyone, it is true of some.

OSAS, or not? You decide

Catholic teaching does not support OSAS and neither does Calvinism. Calvinism’s perseverence of the saints is different from OSAS although OSAS finds its origins in Calvinism.

 

[sandusky]

Did you read the first paragraph of your reference?? FREE WILL not Calvinism…teachccd

I did; FREE WILL; there’s something to boast about…

 

[anthony022071]

by Ludwig Ott

1. GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

De fide = “of faith” - dogmas are absolutely binding on all Catholics]

This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it . . . The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq: . . . cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq. . . . Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence.While the Catholic Church says that this is not true of everyone, it is true of some.

OSAS, or not? You decide

Romans 8,29:

“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to the image of his son,in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called;and those whom he called he also justified;and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Paul is speaking in the past tense,about those who had died. “Glorified” may also imply “martyrdom”.
But that some are predestined by God for glorification does not warrant self-assurance,because we do not know if we are predestined. And as Jerome said,God judges the past and present,but not the future. So we still have free will which can ruin us for Paradise,as it did Adam. Matthew 25,34-46 shows that we will be judged by our alms-giving (deeds of mercy).

 

[sandusky]

anthony022071:

Romans 8,29:

“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to the image of his son,in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called;and those whom he called he also justified;and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Paul is speaking in the past tense,about those who had died. “Glorified” may also imply “martyrdom”.

That is the most unique interpretation of that passage that I have ever heard;
I’ll never forget it.

Do you think perhaps the past tense foreknew, predestinated, called, justified, glorified, indicates that those actions were determined, and took place in eternity, and that they apply to people alive even now, and in the future, rather than exclusively to people already dead, and to martyrs? Is that a possibility?

If not, could you explain to me the use of the different pronouns, such as, our, we, us,
and the meaning of Paul’s question in the very next verse, and the meaning of the answer to that question:**Romans 8:31

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?**

 

[anthony022071]

That is the most unique interpretation of that passage that I have ever heard;
I’ll never forget it.

Do you think perhaps the past tense foreknew, predestinated, called, justified, glorified, indicates that those actions were determined, and took place in eternity, and that they apply to people alive even now, and in the future, rather than exclusively to people already dead, and to martyrs? Is that a possibility?

If not, could you explain to me the use of the different pronouns, such as, our, we, us,
and the meaning of Paul’s question in the very next verse, and the meaning of the answer to that question:Romans 8:31

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Even if we consider these things to be determined in eternity and that they apply to the people of the present and future,we still have to take into account the reality of free will and that we can lose Paradise like Adam did.
My own thought as to the relation between the will of God and the will of a man is that it is like contrary winds,which are invisible but can be felt,and which blow through each other and intermingle with one another,so that it is impossible to tell them apart,where they lead. When an unforeseen disaster happens,we often say “That just had to happen”,even though it could have been avoided had we known beforehand.

It may be significant that Paul asked “If God be for us,who can be against us?” and did not say “God is for us.” It would be presumptuous to leave it at that. Paul and his disciples are still subject to the passage of time,to the temptation to sin,and still have free will.
Even Paul,with all his faith,is kept in suspense.

Paul says to the gentiles: “Note then the kindness and the severity of God;severity toward those who have fallen,but God’s kindness toward you,provided you continue in his kindness;otherwise you also will he cut off.” Romans 11,22.

So salvation is precarious on account of man’s free will and God’s will.

 

[runandsew]

some protestants will quote ephesians 4:30 which reads:

“And do not grieve the holy Spirit of God, with which you were sealed for the day of redemption”

according to them, if we are sealed in the spirit until the day of redemption then we have eternal security and absolute assurance of salvation, how do we refute this?

This is the problem with proof texts… they can be taken out of context of what the whole bible is teaching.

What the bible is teaching is that God’s promise of salvation is eternal and will never be taken away, it is a free gift for us.

But we can refuse this gift, or walk away from it through mortal sin.

But if we repent of our sins, the gift of salvation is still available to us. Jesus doesn’t need to be re-crucified, he died once and for all.

In the Old Testament, they would have to sacrifice over and over to be forgiven of sins, but that is no longer the case.

Now if we come to accept Jesus, and are saved, but then fall away from the faith through sin, we are walking away from this gift of salvation. But all we have to do is to be truly sorry of our sins, confess and ask for forgiveness and we will again be in posession of the gift of salvation.

We can lose our Salvation, but we can not lose the promise of salvation.

 

[Greg27]

I think this doesn’t interpret the NT properly. Along with many assurances of salvation, the writers in the NT warn salvation can also be lost in various ways. Later doctrine in the Church attempted to deal with how serious sin in the community after baptism could be dealt with, after which theoretically there is no salvation. Public penance was common, followed by the sacrament of confession in later centuries. Generally the OSAS is a Reformed doctrine, based on the notion of Predestination by God’s irrestiable grace and decree of his will, in that a select few of elect have been ordained by God before creation to be saved, while the rest are also ordained to be damned. OSAS also came into Catholicism by Jansenism, though the problem is and was because it was God who decreed who would be saved, no-one could truely know if it was they who were saved or damned, or someone else. OSAS actually didn’t result in assurance but rather a very gloomy and morbid fear of God’s wrath and damnation to the point people had little or no sense of his mercy or love, as because we are predestined to either damnation or salvation, we cannot know if we are truely saved in the end or damned, and either way, there is nothing we can do; at best, good works result from the fruit of someone who is elect, but that doesn’t prove beyond a doubt that person will be saved or must be saved. A person can hope they are saved, and they will have the final grace of perseverance, but there is no objective way to know they actually have it.

At least the co-operative grace view gives humans freedom to respond to God who reveals himself in revelation.

 

[allischalmers]

I have to wonder why someone who spent sixty years struggling to be a good Christian would suddenly and knowingly commit a mortal sin. It seems unlikely, doesn’t it?

That’s a good point. Being a Christian is not just about going to church. It’s a lifestyle. Paul after his conversion had only one goal. That was to know God and serve him. That was his lifesytle and it should be ours

 

[deb1]

That’s a good point. Being a Christian is not just about going to church. It’s a lifestyle. Paul after his conversion had only one goal. That was to know God and serve him. That was his lifesytle and it should be ours

Amen.

 

[sandusky]

anthony022071:

It may be significant that Paul asked “If God be for us,who can be against us?” and did not say “God is for us.”

Paul is saying "God is for us".

He is anticipating that some will doubt the assurances God is giving; therefore, he asks these questions in v31 to dissuade their doubt, and he anticipates other doubts they may have, and raises the same type of questions further on in the text to assuage those doubts.

His goal is to extinguish any doubt.

Contextually, the doubt that he dissuades is that someone, or something, can come along and take from the believer the things God has promised to him.

The answer expected to the questions raised is no one/no thing.

“If,” in v31, is a condition of the first class; so, Paul is not making an uncertain statement, but a certain one.

Thus, it can be stated positively, “Seeing that God is for us, who can be against us?”

Here’s the text:Romans 8:31-39

***What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with
Him freely give us all things?

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Just as it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.***:extrahappy:

 

[Pax]

Paul is saying "God is for us".

…
…
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
…
…

This is an important verse in the passage you quoted. If we do not conquer in these things we are lost. In The book of Revelation our Savior makes this abundantly clear.

Jesus tells us:

Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who** conquers** I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.’

Rev 2:26-29 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:4-5 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He who** conquers** shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Rev 3:11-13 I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:21-22 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

Rev 21: 7-8 He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

This is an important verse in the passage you quoted. If we do not conquer in these things we are lost. In The book of Revelation our Savior makes this abundantly clear.

[Sigh…………….ahh]

First, in the passages you cite from Revelation, Jesus does not say, as you interpret Him saying, ”if we do not conquer…we are lost.”

Rather, what Jesus says is, ”To him who conquers, I will, shall, make, grant, give to him…” whatever He will, shall, make, grant, give to him.

In those passages, Jesus affirms what Paul says in Rom 8:32:He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, ***how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?***You say, He will not if we don’t conquer…”

But what does Paul say in Rom 8:37?:But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer…Literally in the Greek, ”We are more than conquerors.”

And, all what things—what is Paul talking about ”in all these things?”

Why, it’s all of things he’s listed in vv33-39

VV 35–39 celebrates the love of God in Christ for us.

It is as impossible to separate us from that love, Paul says, as it is to bring a charge against us. No earthly peril or disaster can do so (35b–36).

Though such suffering can be expected, as Paul reminds us with his quotation of Ps. 44:22, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. Nor can any spiritual power separate us from God’s love (angels, demons and powers in v 38).

Indeed, there is nothing in all creation that can remove us from the new regime in which God’s love in Christ reigns over us.

:extrahappy:

 

[christcnection1]

[Sigh…………….ahh]

Indeed, there is nothing in all creation that can remove us from the new regime in which God’s love in Christ reigns over us.

:extrahappy:

Not even if we stop loving Him?

I would be curious how you interpret these verses:
(There are many more I could use.)

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

We must love Him. He said if you love me, you will obey my commandments. If we refuse to obey His will by not repenting and seeking forgiveness, we can say Lord, Lord, but we will not enter into His Kingdom.

**Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Romans 11:22) **

You can only be “cut off” if you were at some point attached. We must remain in His kindness. This includes loving Him and following Him. God is not pleased with evil-doers.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12)

Why fear? Why trembling? Why work it out? It isn’t it already finished? (Well, yes, just not the way you understand it.)

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galations 5:4)

You can only fall from grace if you were in grace to begin with.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.(Hebrews 6:4-8)

That doesn’t sound too pleasant.

Continued…