OSAS and ephesians 4:30

[JeannetteCML]

Let us not call each other sinful on account of a different interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Pax]

Link and Sandusky,

We have a problem. It is becoming obvious to me that we could go on and on arguing for and against our respective positions. This has not been productive thus far and I doubt that it will be very productive down the road.

I would like to point out something that we can all probably agree on before I get into my misgivings about OSAS. We probably all agree that scripture needs to be understood in its context. Furthermore, the immediate context of any passage is to be understood in the context of the book that it is written in, and that all of the books of scripture are to be understood in the context of the entire bible.

Unfortunately, any agreement with that statement on context will soon be lost in the universe of beliefs that we all, respectively, hold near and dear. The question is how do we resolve the situation. One side is right and one side is wrong. Clearly, neither side is willing to concede, but somebody should concede at some point.

Please be advised that, IMHO, you have a number of serious handicaps in attempting to support your position. Some of the ones I see are as follows:

1. The constant teaching of the Church from apostolic times until the Reformation. The Catholic Church has never deviated from the pre-Reformation teachings.
2. OSAS as taught today differs from the doctrines taught by Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli. That makes it even further removed from the original teachings.
3. The number of scriptural verses used by OSAS believers to support the doctrine are relatively few in number, and in most instances it is not difficult to show that most of them do not support the teaching. There are a few passages that are not so easily refuted. (This is my opinion and I know you won’t agree)
4. If we were to list all of the passages that can “reasonably” be used to make an argument for OSAS they would be very few in number.
5. There are an overwhelming number of passages that emphatically deny the notion of once saved always saved. I have personally researched in excess of sixty passages that deny the teaching.
6. If we took a verse count alone the case would be closed. OSAS would lose in a blow out.

I believe that the aforementioned points alone defeat the arguments for OSAS. There is another argument, however, that really makes it impossible for me to find support for the doctrine and it is as follows:

This doctrine, if it were true, would be of such incredible significance that it would have been stated in scripture in exactly the way it is taught. Scripture would actually say the following in no uncertain terms:

1. Men are saved by faith “alone.” The word “alone” would be in the Greek. Instead scripture says, that we are not saved by faith alone.
2. Scripture would then say in close proximity that "once a person is saved by faith alone, they are always saved and can never lose their salvation. Scripture would also say explicity that there is nothing a person can do that would cause them to lose their salvation. *
3. There would **never **be any verses of scripture that include provisional terminology concerning salvation. There would be no verses that even remotely suggest that salvation can be lost. There are, however, an overwhelming number of verses that do more than suggest that salvation can be lost. Many state that truth quite explicitly. Moreover, for me to accept OSAS, the sixty passages that I have researched that refute OSAS simply could not be part of the bible.

OSAS is an absolute. Absolutes never have exceptions and qualifiers associated with them. Scripture uses a generous amount of provisional terminology associated with salvation; scripture says that people can “believe” and then “fall away”; scripture gives warning after warning to “believers” and these warnings pertain to salvation; and scripture tells us what sins will bring condemnation even to “believers.” All of this denies OSAS.*

 

[sandusky]

1. The constant teaching of the Church from apostolic times until the Reformation. The Catholic Church has never deviated from the pre-Reformation teachings.

Eternal Security is based upon the scriptures, written by the apostles—the earliest church.

2. OSAS as taught today differs from the doctrines taught by Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli. That makes it even further removed from the original teachings.

OSAS is, but eternal security is not; neither Linkowski, nor I believe in OSAS; namely, say a prayer, you’re in, go sin and live it up; Catholics seem to be unable to get away from that Catholic-imposed definition. Go back through the thread, and note all of the times that Linkowski and I said you must persevere, you don’t have license to sin etc., then look at the arguments from Catholics who argue against what we did not say, all the while ignoring what we did say.

3. The number of scriptural verses used by OSAS believers to support the doctrine are relatively few in number, and in most instances it is not difficult to show that most of them do not support the teaching. There are a few passages that are not so easily refuted. (This is my opinion and I know you won’t agree)

1. If we were to list all of the passages that can “reasonably” be used to make an argument for OSAS they would be very few in number.
2. There are an overwhelming number of passages that emphatically deny the notion of once saved always saved. I have personally researched in excess of sixty passages that deny the teaching.
3. If we took a verse count alone the case would be closed. OSAS would lose in a blow out.

It’s quality, Pax, not quantity, ES is based upon the totality of scripture, and you’ll never defeat it, in fact, your Church teaches it as well, de fide, with some variation in the description, nevertheless, the outcome is identical, and so it is with great wonder that I have watched Catholics on this thread try to defeat it.

This doctrine, if it were true, would be of such incredible significance that it would have been stated in scripture in exactly the way it is taught. Scripture would actually say the following in no uncertain terms:

1. Men are saved by faith “alone.” The word “alone” would be in the Greek. Instead scripture says, that we are not saved by faith alone.
2. Scripture would then say in close proximity that "once a person is saved by faith alone, they are always saved and can never lose their salvation. Scripture would also say explicity that there is nothing a person can do that would cause them to lose their salvation. *
3. There would never be any verses of scripture that include provisional terminology concerning salvation. There would be no verses that even remotely suggest that salvation can be lost. There are, however, an overwhelming number of verses that do more than suggest that salvation can be lost. Many state that truth quite explicitly. Moreover, for me to accept OSAS, the sixty passages that I have researched that refute OSAS simply could not be part of the bible.

OSAS is an absolute. Absolutes never have exceptions and qualifiers associated with them. Scripture uses a generous amount of provisional terminology associated with salvation; scripture says that people can “believe” and then “fall away”; scripture gives warning after warning to “believers” and these warnings pertain to salvation; and scripture tells us what sins will bring condemnation even to “believers.” All of this denies OSAS.*That’s a very weak argument, Pax, and a very inconsistent argument as well. Consistently apply the same Scriptural standards that you demand of ES, in your thesis above, to the Marian dogmas, and there would be no immaculate conception, no perpetual virginity, no sinlessness, no bodily assumption, etc.

Eternal Security has a substantial amount of Scriptural support; certainly more than
the Marian doctrines.

 

[savedsinner]

Romans 8:39

nor height, nor depth, ** nor any other created thing,** will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.In the verses preceding v39, Paul lists some created things that are powerless to separate the elect from God, and to make certain, that his readers are left with no doubt as to the powerlessness of created things to separate the elect from God, Paul rounds up the whole of creation in this negative statement: nor any other created thing will be able to…

Are you a created thing, guanophore?

It never ceases to amaze me, how sinful men kick against the word of God, in order to hang onto an autonomy that they do not possess.

Romans 8:39 says that nothing can seperate us from the love of God, but then in your comment you left out the word love and made it say that nothing will seperate us from God. that is a very big difference when you are talking about OSAS. Because if we can’t be seperated from the love of God, that would mean that God would still love us if we lost our salvation due to sin, and he would hope that we would repent and come back to him, just like in the parable of the prodigal son.
But when you leave out the word love, you could take it that we can’t lose our salvation because we can’t be seperated from God.

I hope what I just wrote makes sense.

 

[JeannetteCML]

Consistently apply the same Scriptural standards that you demand of ES, in your thesis above, to the Marian dogmas, and there would be no immaculate conception, no perpetual virginity, no sinlessness, no bodily assumption, etc.

Eternal Security has a substantial amount of Scriptural support; certainly more than
the Marian doctrines.

I don’t think that’s a good comparison. There are Scriptural passages AGAINST “eternal security,” but there is nothing in Scripture against the Marian doctrines. Although you quoted him, you’ve simply ignored a lot of what Pax said about ES being Scriptural.

 

[guanophore]

You don’t have the power to keep others from coming between you, and your husband;

Perhaps not, but by the grace of God, she has the power to remain faithful to him, for her part.

God has the power to keep anyone, or anything, including the believer from coming between the love He has for the believer, and the believer himself, including keeping the believer from leaving; thus the question in v31, literally "…God for us; who against us?"

No one is doubting the Power of God. Of course He is able! It is God who gave free will to men so that men could choose.

Paul’s point? Who, or what is more powerful than God? Are you?

God has created men in his likeness and image. As such, men have free will. Men have the choice to either cooperate with God’s plan, or reject it.

None of the things that Paul listed, which is essentially, anything, and everything has more power than God; why else would Paul be so comprehensive in his list? It’s a Hebraism, like, “how often do I forgive, 7 times?”

I agree.

Nothing, no one, not even the believer—no limit to the things that cannot separate the believer from the love of God for the believer, in Christ.

Paul speaks of externals, not of internals. God does not take away the free will of man.

 

[guanophore]

The word abide in John’s letters means “to remain.” Keep this in mind when reading the following:

1 John 2: 24-25
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you.* If *what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

2 John 9-11
Any one who goes ahead and **does not abide **in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; **he who abides **in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.

Now read what James has to say about a believer that is living in sin:

James 5: 19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way** will save his soul from death** and will cover a multitude of sins.

Please don’t tell me that this sinner’s wandering from the truth didn’t separate him from God. If this sinner did not come back from the error of his ways, his soul would not have been saved from death.

I could go on and on with scripture that denies the doctrine of OSAS. If you want all the passages that deny the doctrine, I’ll be glad to send them to you via email.

I think the OSAS would just say tht he was never saved to begin with. Anyway, didn’t you know that Jesus does not really have much relevant to say about salvation? He had not been crucified, so salvation was not yet understood by anyone until Paul wrote the book of Romans.

 

[guanophore]

Correct, Pax; the elect do not have “soiled garments.”

I don’t believe that I said anything about either soiled garments, or repentance in my reply to your post; and neither did you say anything about either soiled garments, or repentance in your post to which I replied; right?

I can agree that they won’t have them by the time they get to the pearly gates. however, Saved people do sin,and if they don’t correct it, it will result in eternal death.

“As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word … receives it with joy; yet … when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word…he falls away.”

:banghead:

Are you knocking sense into yourself?

If one “receives the word with joy” then a person has taken it in, experientiallly. Such a one recognizes the truth of the word, and attaches to it(Him). You can’t “fall away” from something that you were never hanging onto in the first place!

Col 1:21-23
21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul is addressing “saved” persons here -those who have been reconciled. PROVIDED they continue, and not shifting. Failure to continue and shifting from the truth are things that are under a persons control. If Paul believed in OSAS , why did he not say “you will persevere?”. Why would he say not to shift away, if it were not possible to shift away? Or, do you deny that those reconciled in his body of flesh by His death are really saved?

However, I want to talk about other sins, besides the rejection of the HS that lead unto death.

1 John 1:7-9
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. "

You say that the believer does not sin, because God prevents him from sinning. John says that if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves.

Paul is writing to the believers in Corinth:

1 Cor 5:1-2
5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

1 Cor 5:4-5
When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What does this mean? He will still be saved, even though he has sinned, or that he was never saved to begin with? Or that this sin is not unto death?

 

[Pax]

Eternal Security is based upon the scriptures, written by the apostles—the earliest church. I disagree.

OSAS is, but eternal security is not; neither Linkowski, nor I believe in OSAS; namely, say a prayer, you’re in, go sin and live it up; Catholics seem to be unable to get away from that Catholic-imposed definition. Go back through the thread, and note all of the times that Linkowski and I said you must persevere, you don’t have license to sin etc., then look at the arguments from Catholics who argue against what we did not say, all the while ignoring what we did say. If your position is not OSAS/Eternal Security, then we are making progress. If your position is identicle to Calvin’s original teachings, then I will reduce my level of criticism. While I do not completely agree with Calvinism, I certainly see more merit there that in OSAS. Another thread on the merits and weaknesses of TULIP might be in order. I have pointed out earlier in this thread that there is a significant difference between Calvinism and OSAS. You and Link have not given me sufficient reason, until perhaps now, to appreciate the fact that you actually align yourselves with original Calvinism as opposed to OSAS. I apologize if I have misunderstood you on this score, but that never came across to me in your posts.

It’s quality, Pax, not quantity, ES is based upon the totality of scripture, and you’ll never defeat it, in fact, your Church teaches it as well, de fide, with some variation in the description, nevertheless, the outcome is identical, and so it is with great wonder that I have watched Catholics on this thread try to defeat it. Actually, its both quality and quantity. You may believe the quality rests with your position but I strongly disagree especially when the terms OSAS and Eternal Security are used. If you wish to discuss Calvinism that is fine, but for sake of accuracy you should abandon the previously mentioned terms.

That’s a very weak argument, Pax, and a very inconsistent argument as well. Consistently apply the same Scriptural standards that you demand of ES, in your thesis above, to the Marian dogmas, and there would be no immaculate conception, no perpetual virginity, no sinlessness, no bodily assumption, etc.

Eternal Security has a substantial amount of Scriptural support; certainly more than the Marian doctrines. My argument was not weak and this is not a rebuttal. There is nothing in scripture that precludes the Marian doctrines whereas OSAS/Eternal Security are definitely refutable by purposeful and pointed quotes from scripture that were written to keep people from falling into any misunderstanding on the subject. Marian doctrines do not address the issue of salvation. The scripture verses that we have exchanged on this thread most certainly do. We should remain focused on those passages and avoid introducing something that is not related to the debate.

 

[Pax]

I think the OSAS would just say tht he was never saved to begin with. Anyway, didn’t you know that Jesus does not really have much relevant to say about salvation? He had not been crucified, so salvation was not yet understood by anyone until Paul wrote the book of Romans.

Ouch…you got me!

 

[mikeledes]

So, there’s no mention of crowns in the day of judgment…

So when I “receive the kingdom,”—IOW, when I first believed—I got my crown? But, I don’t have a crown right now.

Do you?

I did not say that there is no mention of crowns in judgment. What I am saying is that the there is only one final judgement in which the righteous and the wicked will appear before the throne of judgement and what is being determined is not who will get a crown and who will not. Judgement primarily deals with the eternal destiny of those being judged. The crown is part of the inheritance. We have not taken possession of this inheritance, both the crown and the eternal kingdom.

1 Peter 1:4

** 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, **

Matthew 7:21

**21"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. **

Hebrews 10:35-36

35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

And what was promised?

Hebrews 9:15

… those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance

Acts 14:22

**22strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.” **

Luke 13:26

**27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’
28"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. **

1 Corinthians 15:50-51

**50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, **

All of these verses demonstrate that we have not yet inherited the kingdom of God, but that this inheritance is a future reality, one that is promised to Christians and given after they have persevered.

To be continued…

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

It also says in the next verse that he must have a good reputation outside the church so that, “he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil"—do you really think that those things mean eternal damnation?

Let’s see another verse in which that phrase is used:

2 Timothy 2:25-26

25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

This verse obviously describes someone who is “unsaved.” Therefore, when we compare this verse with the one you cited and add 1 Timothy 3:6

**6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. **

It is clear that he is referring to eternal damnation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Let’s take a look at several verses from Galatians:

Galatians 1:6

**6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; **

Galatians 3:3

**3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? **

Galatians 4:8

**8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? **

Galatians 5:1-4

**1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **

The Galatians had wandered from the truth by deserting the One who called them. Let me add a related verse:

James 5:19-20

**19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. **

Straying from the truth endangers a persons soul. Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is a serious matter that has eternal consequences. Now the “separated from the love of God” verse has been used a lot by our Protestant brothers in this thread. However, Galatians 5:4 states that the Galatians in question were “severed from Christ” and have “fallen from grace.” This is similar to another verse:

Romans 11:20-22

**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

To continue in God’s kindness is to continue in His grace. If we have fallen from grace, we have been cut off, severed from Christ. If one has fallen from grace, there can be no salvation for one cannot be saved without grace. That is why John 15:6 states:

**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

Notice the order of events. The branch is thrown away (i.e. cut off), “dries up” (i.e. dies) and is cast into the fire. The branch dries up because it has been caught off from its source of life (i.e. the Vine). A person cut off/ severed from Christ the Vine is also cut off from the source of life and his/her end is the eternal fire. That is why John urges the Christian community to abide in Christ:

1 John 2:28

**28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. **

They shrink away in shame because they know they will experience everlasting shame.

Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is very serious and has grave eternal consequences. According to the OSAS doctrine as understood by Protestants, such a situation is impossible. A true Christian can never really fall from grace, be severed from
Christ, or desert him. Such a person was never saved to begin with. Looking at the general profile of the Galatians based on the first couple of verses I gave, they were genuinely saved.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The Catholic Church believes in predestination to glory:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

romancatholicism.org/akin-tulip.htm

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

And all Catholic theologians, both Thomists and Molinists, must uphold the following principles:

We shall return to this point. But in any case, from this minimum admitted by all we get three propositions to which all Catholic theologians subscribe. They are: (1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians. But Thomists and Augustinians on the one hand, and Molinists and congruists on the other, differ in their interpretation of them.

Consequently, the elect - those predestined to glory - will not be lost. Their number is immutably fixed. So why does the Catholic Church teach that a person can lose their salvation? Because we believe that God also genuinely gives the grace of justification to many of the non-elect, but these will fail to persevere in that grace.

To be continued…

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Let’s establish a general profile of the “fallen away” using Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-29; and Luke 8:12. I’ have to do this in more than one post, so please respond after I’m finished.

It’s easy to explain away verses when they are looked at in isolation. But when you see the “big picture”, it is a different story.

1. They are enlightened ](Hebrews 6:4)

The “fallen away” are described as being “enlightened”, a term used to describe genuine Christians;

Hebrews 10:32

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,

1. They have received knowlege of the truth (Hebrews 10:26)

Now the expression “knowledge of the truth” is not mere intellectual knowledge, but a salvific knowledge possessed only by the saved. Also note that in the use of “we”, the inspired author included himself. Thus indicating that he is talking about a knowledge possesesed by Christians:

1 Timothy 2:4

4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 2:25

25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Knowledge of the truth is the fruit of God- granted repentance. Have the “fallen away” described in Hebrews 6 repented?

1. They have repented

Hebrews 6:6 states:

6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, …

What does “renew” and “again” mean:

Here are some of the defintons provided by dictionary.com of the word “renew”.

** to make, say, or do again.
5. to revive; reestablish.
6. to recover (youth, strength, etc.).
7. to restore to a former state; make new or as if new again **

You cannot “renew” something that never existed in the first place. You cannot have an “again” if there was no first time. Now some may argue that the repemtance here is a “superficial repentance.” Let’s see what happens when we add the word ‘superficial’

Hebrews 6:6

**6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to superficial **repentance,

Why on earth would we want to renew them again to superficial repentance. That makes absolutely no sense. “Repentance” can only mean genuine repentance and genuine repentance is ultimately from God.

To be continued…

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

Judgement primarily deals with the eternal destiny of those being judged.

Eternal destiny has already been determined, Mike, and you know that:

I believe that in the case of the elect, this “fall from grace” will be temporary. In the case of the “justified” reprobate, there will ultimately be a permanent “fall from grace.”

Be consistent, Mike.

The elect’s destiny is fixed; correct? It is only these “justified reprobate,” so-called, whose eternal destiny is in question; correct?

You have yet to prove that there is a “justified reprobate.”

mikeledes:

We have not taken possession of this inheritance, both the crown and the eternal kingdom.

Maybe you haven’t taken possession of the inheritance, but the elect have. Again, there is an already/not yet tension, and all of the elect possess all of the promised inheritance right now, as well as eschatologically; the promises of God are eternal.John 3:3

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, **unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.**When one believes, he sees, and he enters the kingdom of God, and has all of the promises associated with that kingdom already.**Romans 8:15

15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.**And the elect will indeed “suffer with Him so that they may be glorified,” as you stated:

I believe that in the case of the elect, this “fall from grace” will be temporary.

You cited several verses with respect to this: 1 Pet 1:4; Heb 9:15.

The “reservation” in 1 Pet 1:4, and the “calling” of Heb 9:15 are perfect, passive, participles, in the Greek, you can’t get more secure than that; it is the same construction used in Lk 1:28 with reference to Mary, kekechartiomenē, which is used, I believe, to maintain the “eternal sinlessness” of Mary; it is the same construction used in Eph 2:8, referring to the elect.

Be consistent, Mike; if the “perfect passive” delineates an eternal truth about Mary, then it delineates an eternal truth about the elect as well.

As far as all of the other verses you cite with respect to a loss of salvation, you’ve already answered that question by yourself, for yourself.

I believe that in the case of the elect, this “fall from grace” will be temporary. In the case of the “justified” reprobate, there will ultimately be a permanent "fall from grace."

Against your idea of a “justified reprobate,” I said this:

Php 1:6: For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

**Isn’t justification a good work? And what does Paul say about a good work God begins in a reprobate?

Unless of course, you believe that this pertains only to the Philippians?**

The predestination to ‘justification,” has no assurance of perseverance; those elected in that way, may lose their salvation, on the basis of their own “free-will” choice. IOW, no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father, but they can leave on their own.

But, that kind of predestination means that God was deceitful in His statement to the Philippians; therefore, all of His promises are rendered suspect.

 

[mikeledes]

PART 2

1. They were made partakers of the Holy Spirit

The word “partake” does not mean mere association. It means an actual share. Here is the definition from dictionary.com:

**1. to take or have a part or share along with others; participate (usually fol. by in): He won’t partake in the victory celebration.
2. to receive, take, or have a share or portion **

We see this word used earlier in Hebrews 5:13

13For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

We also see the word used in 1 Corinthians 10:17:

17Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

We don’t “associate” with milk. We drink milk. We don’t “associate” with bread? We eat bread. In fact, the Bible often uses partakes as the equivalent of “eat” or “drink”.

1 Corinthians 12:13

13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Those baptized into one body were made to drink of one Spirit. In other words, we were all made to partake of one Spirit. In Hebrews 6:6, the fallen away were described as having been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. In other words, an external agent was involved in making them partakers of the Holy Spirit and that agent was God. They were made by God drinkers of the Spirit and thus, combined with the fact that they had previously repented, they were genuinely made children of God.

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

1. They have been sanctified by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:29).

Can an unsaved unbelieving person be sanctified by the blood of Christ? They can be sanctified in the sense that they were set apart for a specific purpose (1 Corinthians 7:15), but they are never described as being sanctified by the blood of Christ. Moreover, when the letter of Hebrews used the word “sanctified”, it is used in reference to those who have been saved:

Hebrews 2:11

**11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, **

A person who is sanctified has become a child of God. Now let’s look at an overview of this profile:

1. They were enlightened
2. They received knowledge of the truth
3. They repented.
4. They were made partakers of the Holy Spirit
5. They were sanctified by the blood of Christ.

Now add to this that they received the word with joy. If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Eternal destiny has already been determined, Mike, and you know that:Be consistent, Mike.

The elect’s destiny is fixed; correct? It is only these “justified reprobate,” so-called, whose eternal destiny is in question; correct?

You have yet to prove that there is a “justified reprobate.”

Maybe you haven’t taken possession of the inheritance, but the elect have. Again, there is an already/not yet tension, and all of the elect possess all of the promised inheritance right now, as well as eschatologically; the promises of God are eternal.John 3:3

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, **unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.**When one believes, he sees, and he enters the kingdom of God, and has all of the promises associated with that kingdom already.Romans 8:15

15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.And the elect will indeed “suffer with Him so that they may be glorified,” as you stated:

You cited several verses with respect to this: 1 Pet 1:4; Heb 9:15.

The “reservation” in 1 Pet 1:4, and the “calling” of Heb 9:15 are perfect, passive, participles, in the Greek, you can’t get more secure than that; it is the same construction used in Lk 1:28 with reference to Mary, kekechartiomenē, which is used, I believe, to maintain the “eternal sinlessness” of Mary; it is the same construction used in Eph 2:8, referring to the elect.

Be consistent, Mike; if the “perfect passive” delineates an eternal truth about Mary, then it delineates an eternal truth about the elect as well.

As far as all of the other verses you cite with respect to a loss of salvation, you’ve already answered that question by yourself, for yourself.

Against your idea of a “justified reprobate,” I said this:

1 Peter 1:4
4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

1 Corinthians 15:50-51

**50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, **

You must be writing from heaven then and have already been glorified in soul and body. Has the rapture already occurred in your case? God’s plan of salvation works out in time. An elect person is generally not born justified. They are born in a state of spiritual death. At some point in their life, they are born again. However, that is just one stage of salvation they have experienced. The final stage is glorification.

Romans 13:11

… for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

Every hour and day that passes, the elect are closer to their glorification. A person is not born glorified. He must generally be first born in sin and then justified. When he dies or at the coming of Christ, he will experience glorification. God has promised and inheritance to His children. But we will only experience and actually possess this inheritance at a certain point in time. As I’ve stated before, God’s plan of salavtion works out in time and we experience it in time until we enter eternity. I will answer the rest another day. I have to go and I’ll probably be away for the next couple of days. I will also be looking forward to your responses in the Golden Chain thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=159911&page=19

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Let’s take a look at several verses from Galatians:

Galatians 1:6

6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Galatians 3:3

3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 4:8

**8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back **again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Galatians 5:1-4

1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The Galatians had wandered from the truth by deserting the One who called them. Let me add a related verse:

James 5:19-20

**19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth **and one turns him back,
20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Straying from the truth endangers a persons soul. Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is a serious matter that has eternal consequences. Now the “separated from the love of God” verse has been used a lot by our Protestant brothers in this thread. However, Galatians 5:4 states that the Galatians in question were “severed from Christ” and have “fallen from grace.” This is similar to another verse:

Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

To continue in God’s kindness is to continue in His grace. If we have fallen from grace, we have been cut off, severed from Christ. If one has fallen from grace, there can be no salvation for one cannot be saved without grace. That is why John 15:6 states:

6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Notice the order of events. The branch is thrown away (i.e. cut off), “dries up” (i.e. dies) and is cast into the fire. The branch dries up because it has been caught off from its source of life (i.e. the Vine). A person cut off/ severed from Christ the Vine is also cut off from the source of life and his/her end is the eternal fire. That is why John urges the Christian community to abide in Christ:

1 John 2:28

28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

They shrink away in shame because they know they will experience everlasting shame.

Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is very serious and has grave eternal consequences. According to the OSAS doctrine as understood by Protestants, such a situation is impossible. A true Christian can never really fall from grace, be severed from
Christ, or desert him. Such a person was never saved to begin with. Looking at the general profile of the Galatians based on the first couple of verses I gave, they were genuinely saved.

God Bless,
Michael

If genuine Christians can desert Christ for a false gospel, be severed from Christ, and fall from grace, why can’t those in Hebrews 6:1-6 be people who were genuinely Christian and saved?

God Bless,
Michael