OSAS and Judas Iscariot

[JoeyWarren]

Okay this is for you Once Saved Always Saved types out there lurking.

If truely believe in OSAS, then wouldn’t you also have to accept the fact Judas Iscariot is also in heaven and is sitting in one of the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel and his name is one of the Gates of New Jerusalem?

Afterall, was not Judas saved by the mere act of being chosen and accepting the title of Apostle. And do you really think Jesus would have sent unsaved persons out to baptize, raise the dead, etc, etc, etc.?

 

[Zooey]

I’m not OSAS, but a lot of my friends & family are, & they all believe the same thing: That Judas was never saved in the first place…They say, he wanted to oveethrow the Romans politically, & when he realized that wasn’t what Jesus was planning on, he turned against Him.
Now, I truly can’t see how you can get this from a careful reading of the Bible, but this is the standard answer to that question…

 

[rr1213]

I don’t think anything in scripture would definitively demonstrate that Judas was saved (per the Protestant understanding). If anything, you could very reasonably read scripture to say that he wasn’t…his questioning of Christ’s teaching, his betrayal, his suicide following the betrayal. And, as Christ said, there are many who will say “Lord, lord”, and who taught and healed in His name, who are not saved. Ultimately, though, we don’t know do we?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

This verse is the OSAS escape clause. To my knowledge there is no verse that says Judas received the Holy Spirit like the other disciples. It was not until John 20 that the disciples received the Holy Spirit. It is my impression from John 17 that Judas was not protected by Jesus.

John 20:22-23 (King James Version)
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

John 17:12 (King James Version)
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[sara888]

**OSAS is not biblical. Many fell and can fall from grace, which refutes the assured salvation doctrine.

Angel Jan**

 

[Image_of_God]

Many protestant doctrines go against what the Holy Spirit has said in the bible. For example the Spirit says “not by faith alone” clearly in the bible, but they say “by faith alone.” Yet they consider all scripture inspired. However there beliefs do not believe this. For the doctrine of faith alone raises faith above charity which is not correct. Charity is an action not only internal. Faith and hope are temporary, though good, but charity will last forever.

The OSAS doctrine is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS in the sense that not everyone precieves it the same way. While some Protestants understand the need to ask for forgiveness, some do not feel the need to.

The Calvinistic doctrine that you should not pray is against the Bible since the many times the letters in the New Testament say “Pray Always.”
Jesus even prayed himself and he is our brother and our example.

 

[santaro75]

I don’t think anything in scripture would definitively demonstrate that Judas was saved (per the Protestant understanding). If anything, you could very reasonably read scripture to say that he wasn’t…his questioning of Christ’s teaching, his betrayal, his suicide following the betrayal. And, as Christ said, there are many who will say “Lord, lord”, and who taught and healed in His name, who are not saved. Ultimately, though, we don’t know do we?

right after that statement he said who would be saved.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

This verse is the OSAS escape clause. To my knowledge there is no verse that says Judas received the Holy Spirit like the other disciples. It was not until John 20 that the disciples received the Holy Spirit. It is my impression from John 17 that Judas was not protected by Jesus.

John 20:22-23 (King James Version)
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

John 17:12 (King James Version)
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

One thing I’ve alway been puzzled by was what this meant when he said receive the Holy Spirit. It seems to me that they must have had some gifts of the Holy Spirit prior to Christ breathing on them.

Indeed, I read the following:

Matthew:

He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

Clearly, Judas is considered part of the twelve during this time before he betrayed our Lord-- and he is given authority with the rest of the apostles to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

Later, when we look to the gifts of the Spirit, we read the following…

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Clearly, it seems to me anyway, Judas was given at least one gift of the Spirit: healing. He may have also shared in the gift of miraclous powers in the case of driving out evil spirits.

Whether he actually used his gifts or not, I don’t know for sure. Perhaps he hid his talent down in the dungeon so to speak. But if he did have these gifts of the Spirit, I have to wonder how he had them if he wasn’t actually ‘saved’ during this time.

Then again, Baalam was moved by the Holy Spirit to prophesying about the coming of Christ in the Hebrew Scriptures. There’s some weird stuff going on there.

 

[rr1213]

The Calvinistic doctrine that you should not pray is against the Bible since the many times the letters in the New Testament say “Pray Always.”

I’ve attended a few conservative Presbyterian Churches over the years and had not heard of this one. Would you elaborate?

 

[Image_of_God]

I’ve attended a few conservative Presbyterian Churches over the years and had not heard of this one. Would you elaborate?

Prebysterians are a new and moderated form of Calvinism. I guess I made a mistake about what I said.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Mr. Ex Nihilo, there is a difference between being filled with the spirit to work for God and being indwelt by the spirit.

Judas was never indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

The disciples were doing their miracles by the name, authority of Jesus. There is even a story in Acts of some Jewish exorcists who did not believe in Jesus, who were using Jesus name to drive out demons.

Luke 10:17 (New International Version)
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."

Acts 19:13-16 (New International Version)
13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15**(One day) **the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

If you read carefully in the old testament you will see people who were in fact filled with the spirit.

If you read through Acts you will see that people were filled with the spirit over and over again.

I believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is God’s seal

Exodus 31:3
and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts-

Exodus 35:31
and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts-

Deuteronomy 34:9
Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses.

Micah 3:8
But as for me,** I am filled with power, with the Spirit of the LORD**, and with justice and might, to declare to Jacob his transgression, to Israel his sin.

Chrisians are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit

2 Corinthians 1:22
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were **sealed **for the day of redemption.

 

[Image_of_God]

Hi Mr. Ex Nihilo, there is a difference between being filled with the spirit to work for God and being indwelt by the spirit.

Judas was never indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

The disciples were doing their miracles by the name, authority of Jesus. There is even a story in Acts of some Jewish exorcists who did not believe in Jesus, who were using Jesus name to drive out demons.

Luke 10:17 (New International Version)
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."

Acts 19:13-16 (New International Version)
13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15**(One day) **the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

If you read carefully in the old testament you will see people who were in fact filled with the spirit.

If you read through Acts you will see that people were filled with the spirit over and over again.

I believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is God’s seal

Exodus 31:3
and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts-

Exodus 35:31
and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts-

Deuteronomy 34:9
Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses.

Micah 3:8
But as for me,** I am filled with power, with the Spirit of the LORD**, and with justice and might, to declare to Jacob his transgression, to Israel his sin.

Chrisians are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit

2 Corinthians 1:22
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were **sealed **for the day of redemption.

Paul still is against OSAS.
Roman 11,22
See then the kindness and severity of God. Severity toward those who fell(We Catholics call this Mortal sin) and God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness(What we Catholics call the state of grace)

You can fall out of the kindness of God! We must be grafted in again by going to confession.

 

[sara888]

Paul still is against OSAS.
Roman 11,22
See then the kindness and severity of God. Severity toward those who fell(We Catholics call this Mortal sin) and God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness(What we Catholics call the state of grace)

You can fall out of the kindness of God! We must be grafted in again by going to confession.

**
I concur, also we must strive to live a life of holiness as God has requested us all to do…If we love God we should detest sin as this separates us from God and doing his will. The confessional is to repent of our sins and be truly sorry or sincere.

AngelJan…**

 

[Image_of_God]

**
I concur, also we must strive to live a life of holiness as God has requested us all do… We also should detest sin as this separates us from God and his will.

AngelJan…**

Osas is toooooo good to be true! I don’t think it is supposed to be that easy. If we are Osas then wouldn’t it be okay to sin? Therefore we are not. As Paul expressed, one can fall out of God’s kindness. We must strive to remain in it. Yes we are sealed with the Holy Spirit at baptism which is why we do not need to be rebaptized, but we can still go against him and need to be reconciled.

 

[sara888]

**

Hi Mr. Ex Nihilo, there is a difference between being filled with the spirit to work for God and being indwelt by the spirit.

Judas was never indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

The disciples were doing their miracles by the name, authority of Jesus. There is even a story in Acts of some Jewish exorcists who did not believe in Jesus, who were using Jesus name to drive out demons.

Luke 10:17 (New International Version)
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."

Acts 19:13-16 (New International Version)
13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15**(One day) **the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

If you read carefully in the old testament you will see people who were in fact filled with the spirit.

If you read through Acts you will see that people were filled with the spirit over and over again.

I believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is God’s seal

Exodus 31:3
and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts-

Exodus 35:31
and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts-

Deuteronomy 34:9
Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses.

Micah 3:8
But as for me,** I am filled with power, with the Spirit of the LORD**, and with justice and might, to declare to Jacob his transgression, to Israel his sin.

Chrisians are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit

2 Corinthians 1:22
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were **sealed **for the day of redemption.

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to” (Luke 13:23, 24).
Jesus answered the question about being saved by mentioning entering through the kingdom doors. He also stated we will need personal effort to get in.

This is Jesus teaching, not mine…!!! Jesus taught a continuous effort on man’s part (to stay spiritually alive) to enter God’s kingdom doors. A raging spiritual battle is going on with the forces of darkness as they try to lead you astray and cause you to fall from grace (Gal. 5:2-4) shipwreck your faith in Jesus (1 Tim. 1:19,20); get you to become immoral, impure and greedy (Eph. 5:5-7); etc.

Clearly, eternal life is also reaped but only by those sowing to please the Spirit of God (in obedience). Hence, eternal life is a hope, as shown elsewhere in Scripture (Titus 1:2; 3:7).

Jesus taught something about eternal life that is also rarely known in our day:

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life (John 12:25).

Between initial and final salvation, there are many spiritual dangers that can interfere with and even curtail your following/believing in Jesus and salvation such as: persecutions, cares of this life, pleasures of this life, becoming and staying lukewarm, not producing good fruit, becoming unforgiving and even through lusts and hatred that can creep in.

The most deadly false teacher of all for those that have been born again are the eternal security teachers.!!!

AngelJan**

 

[Image_of_God]

We must do all we can to get to be saved. If we fall, we have to get back up with God’s Grace. We had better watch out for false prophets who teach presumption. Hebrews specifically teaches about people falling away and the dangers of not getting back up.

 

[mommyof4]

Prebysterians are a new and moderated form of Calvinism. I guess I made a mistake about what I said.

I know quite a few strict Reformed members, and I know that they pray a lot, too.

 

[Subrosa]

Hebrews 10:
26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Subrosa

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Okay this is for you Once Saved Always Saved types out there lurking.

If truely believe in OSAS, then wouldn’t you also have to accept the fact Judas Iscariot is also in heaven and is sitting in one of the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel and his name is one of the Gates of New Jerusalem?

He might be - but no one on earth knows; it’s God’s business, not ours. What God has not revealed, we have no way of knowing, so it is a waste of time pretending we can know. IMO, it is particularly objectionable to pry into the question of who may or may not be damned.​

Afterall, was not Judas saved by the mere act of being chosen and accepting the title of Apostle.

No ! We are saved if we are elected to salvation - which means that our salvation always begins in God, and never in us. It is the worst kind of Pelagianism - it is far worse than anything Pelagius ever said - to say that we begin our salvation and that God does not. We cannot stir a finger, if our so doing is not within the Providence of God, for Divine Providence extends to the tiniest details in all creatures - it means that God is absolute Sovereign of all creation in every respect: nothing at all can escape Him .​

And do you really think Jesus would have sent unsaved persons out to baptize, raise the dead, etc, etc, etc.?

Why not ? If such people can do that now, they could be chosen for it then. It is their fault if they are not saved. Or are we to suppose that all Catholic priests and missionaries & catechists are saved ? If all of the Apostles have to be, so by parity of reasoning must all those who do their work later. There is no inherent connection between doing the works of Christ, & being saved; without faith in Christ, no salvation can be had. Neither the CC nor Calvinists equate the Church with the elect.​

 

[Image_of_God]

He might be - but no one on earth knows; it’s God’s business, not ours. What God has not revealed, we have no way of knowing, so it is a waste of time pretending we can know. IMO, it is particularly objectionable to pry into the question of who may or may not be damned.​

No ! We are saved if we are elected to salvation - which means that our salvation always begins in God, and never in us. It is the worst kind of Pelagianism - it is far worse than anything Pelagius ever said - to say that we begin our salvation and that God does not. We cannot stir a finger, if our so doing is not within the Providence of God, for Divine Providence extends to the tiniest details in all creatures - it means that God is absolute Sovereign of all creation in every respect: nothing at all can escape Him .​

Why not ? If such people can do that now, they could be chosen for it then. It is their fault if they are not saved. Or are we to suppose that all Catholic priests and missionaries & catechists are saved ? If all of the Apostles have to be, so by parity of reasoning must all those who do their work later. There is no inherent connection between doing the works of Christ, & being saved; without faith in Christ, no salvation can be had. Neither the CC nor Calvinists equate the Church with the elect.​

We are elected into salvation, which is based on future merits that God knows by his infallible foreknowledge. God does not randomly elect people. He elects them based on what he forsees. If he forsees that a person will choose him and listen him and cooperate with his graces, he will choose that person. Also without works no salvation can be had. It is faith AND works that allows God to give us salvation. You CANNOT seperate faith and works. No one is sure of election. Election is based on future faith and works and there is an error in Calvinism. Calvinism teaches that there are “vessels of mercy” and “vessels of justice” completely removing free will and salvific will. Salvation does begin in God, but we are offered salvation. We must respond yes or no. Either we except salvation with faith and do good works or we say no.

No one is certain who will be saved, but we are certain that God calls and wants all people to be saved. We can only be saved if we except God’s offer.