OSAS and losing salvation

[ryanoneil]

This is a question that was off topic in another thread.

**Do you think the bible supports the notion that a saved person could end up going to hell (lose salvation)? **

The answer is Yes!

Jesus says in Matthew 10:22 *You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. *

If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Nick_Jones]

This is a question that was off topic in another thread.

**Do you think the bible supports the notion that a saved person could end up going to hell (lose salvation)? **

The answer is Yes!

Jesus says in Matthew 10:22 *You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. *

If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Peace,

Ryan

Hi Ryan,

This verse doesn’t tell us that any of those people who failed to endure to the end were ever actually saved. In fact, if some people who were saved end up in hell, it has to be asked, what were they saved from?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

This verse doesn’t tell us that any of those people who failed to endure to the end were ever actually saved. In fact, if some people who were saved end up in hell, it has to be asked, what were they saved from?

Were they to die in 2006, having not gone to the rally, they would go to Hell. Fair enough.
Were they to die in 2007, having been to the big rally, they will go to Heaven. What else would you expect?
However by 2008 the initial excitement might have worn off. So if they die in 2008 they will go to Hell again. That’s what happens. People get bored.

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi Ryan,

This verse doesn’t tell us that any of those people who failed to endure to the end were ever actually saved. In fact, if some people who were saved end up in hell, it has to be asked, what were they saved from?

Matthew 10:2-4 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus; Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him.

Are you suggesting Peter and the others weren’t saved at that point? (maybe not Judas)

If they were already saved why would Jesus say this? Was He only talking to Judas?

Maybe Jesus was telling them they could lose their salvation if they didn’t endure to the end.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This is a question that was off topic in another thread.

**Do you think the bible supports the notion that a saved person could end up going to hell (lose salvation)? **

The answer is Yes!

Jesus says in Matthew 10:22 *You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. *

If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Peace,

Ryan

That is no objection to OSAS, because the preservation of the saints by which they are enabled to persevere is what makes OSAS true.​

Not all who believe will persevere, because not all who believe are elected to salvation. but those who are elected to salvation, are sure to have been preserved; & so to have persevered.

It is because they are elected, that their calling is effectual - if not the first time they hear the Gospel-call, then later on: the crucified robber was elected, but was effectually called only on his cross. He was still called effectually - & was still preserved.

OSAS is brought about in time, as the fruit of a supra-temporal Divine calling. So God’s activity is not continuous with ours - it is not a level with ours. Once this is understood, many objections should be greatly eased. God is not one cause or phenomenon among others. God’s activity is causal, because creatures are not self-originated, but created & so, finite; it is causal in respect to what is effected by it, but not in respect to itself; so properly speaking, God’s causality is not causal in the same way as that of creatures. We use the notion of causality only because it helps us - not because it is strictly true. Yet some such language can’t be avoided in talk which relates God & creatures.

 

[VociMike]

Hi Ryan,

This verse doesn’t tell us that any of those people who failed to endure to the end were ever actually saved. In fact, if some people who were saved end up in hell, it has to be asked, what were they saved from?

True, but then the concept of “being saved” has no meaning in life. One simply cannot claim with certainty “I am saved” while one is still alive. “Once Saved Always Saved” becomes “Once Saved Always Saved, But Nobody Can Ever Be Sure They Are Once Saved”

Either way, the concept OSAS is shown to be either false or useless.

 

[Jlcastagna]

Did Judas have a personal relationship with Jesus? Yes, and he failed to endure to the end. Did Jesus know this would happen? Yes. So was Judas saved at some point or was he never saved? I would say he was a believer at some point and fell into sin and denied Christ at another. OSAS? Not
JLC

 

[inthecloud]

That is no objection to OSAS, because the preservation of the saints by which they are enabled to persevere is what makes OSAS true.​

Not all who believe will persevere, because not all who believe are elected to salvation. but those who are elected to salvation, are sure to have been preserved; & so to have persevered.

It is because they are elected, that their calling is effectual - if not the first time they hear the Gospel-call, then later on: the crucified robber was elected, but was effectually called only on his cross. He was still called effectually - & was still preserved.

The logic of Calvinism is beyond my reach.
Eternal Security of Salvation= Eternal Insecurity of you were saved in the first place. Maybe God was just playing with you.

 

[heisenburg]

OSAS contradicts scripture in a second way…

Ability to know you are saved.

Scripture clearly teaches that you can test yourself and know you are saved.

so…

If someone honestly tests themselves and shows that they are saved, yet later fall back into sin, test themselves again, and show themselves NOT saved, how can OSAS be true

A common response is “well, the were never truely saved to begin with”
However, this person tested themselves earlier and showed that they were saved.

“Well, since they weren’t saved, they could not look at scripture properly, and therefore were not testing themselves properly”

---

However, this logic falls flat in the face of what scripture says. Scripture says we CAN test ourselves. It does NOT say we can only test ourselves to see if we are saved, only if we are saved.

So, Either OSAS is true and we CANNOT test ourself, or OSAS is false.

They are mutually exclusive, due to the very nature of the two, it is impossible to have both.

In Christ

 

[VociMike]

The logic of Calvinism is beyond my reach.
Eternal Security of Salvation= Eternal Insecurity of you were saved in the first place. Maybe God was just playing with you.

Exactly. You may now be eternally saved, but you’ll never know for sure in this lifetime.

 

[Nick_Jones]

True, but then the concept of “being saved” has no meaning in life.

Exactly my point! It is possible to have once owned a house and then to have lost it, but it is nonsense to claim that a saved person could end up in hell. Saved people are saved from hell, so by definition, a saved person can’t go to hell.

One simply cannot claim with certainty “I am saved” while one is still alive. “Once Saved Always Saved” becomes “Once Saved Always Saved, But Nobody Can Ever Be Sure They Are Once Saved”

This is closer to the truth, but you are still denying that some saved people can know that they are saved. The assurance of salvation is available for some saved people some of the time, but assurance of salvation can indeed be lost.

Either way, the concept OSAS is shown to be either false or useless.

You haven’t shown it to be false, and the fact that we can lose the assurance of salvation doesn’t mean OSAS is useless.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Did Judas have a personal relationship with Jesus? Yes, and he failed to endure to the end. Did Jesus know this would happen? Yes. So was Judas saved at some point or was he never saved? I would say he was a believer at some point and fell into sin and denied Christ at another. OSAS? Not
JLC

Does Satan have a personal relationship with Jesus? Maybe, but Satan is not saved by having a personal relationship with Jesus, and neither is Judas. Both of them are among those who were never saved.

 

[mikeledes]

Exactly my point! It is possible to have once owned a house and then to have lost it, but it is nonsense to claim that a saved person could end up in hell. Saved people are saved from hell, so by definition, a saved person can’t go to hell.

This is closer to the truth, but you are still denying that some saved people can know that they are saved. The assurance of salvation is available for some saved people some of the time, but assurance of salvation can indeed be lost.

You haven’t shown it to be false, and the fact that we can lose the assurance of salvation doesn’t mean OSAS is useless.

What does this verse mean to you?

Revelation 22:19

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Only a child of God (i.e. ‘saved’) can have a part in the eternal inheritance. If you are not “saved”, you do not have a part/share. So if it is impossible for any of the “saved” to lose their salvation, how can God take away their part from the tree of life and the holy city? If they were not saved, they wouldn’t have a part to begin with.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

What does this verse mean to you?

Revelation 22:19

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Only a child of God (i.e. ‘saved’) can have a part in the eternal inheritance. If you are not “saved”, you do not have a part/share. So if it is impossible for any of the “saved” to lose their salvation, how can God take away their part from the tree of life and the holy city? If they were not saved, they wouldn’t have a part to begin with.

God Bless,
Michael

If the word “saved” means, “saved from hell” then there is no way that a saved person can end up going to hell.

 

[VociMike]

Exactly my point! It is possible to have once owned a house and then to have lost it, but it is nonsense to claim that a saved person could end up in hell. Saved people are saved from hell, so by definition, a saved person can’t go to hell.

But then the only time when a person can then know they are saved is when they are in heaven.

This is closer to the truth, but you are still denying that some saved people can know that they are saved. The assurance of salvation is available for some saved people some of the time, but assurance of salvation can indeed be lost.

I think you are confusing “assurance of salvation when I eventually die” with “assurance of salvation if I died now”. Catholics do indeed believe that the latter is possible, just not the former.

You haven’t shown it to be false, and the fact that we can lose the assurance of salvation doesn’t mean OSAS is useless.

OK then, what good is knowledge that cannot be known?

 

[inthecloud]

Quote:
You haven’t shown it to be false, and the fact that we can lose the assurance of salvation doesn’t mean OSAS is useless.

Who one can be assured to have something if one can indeed lost it? That means it was not assured in the first time.

 

[mikeledes]

If the word “saved” means, “saved from hell” then there is no way that a saved person can end up going to hell.

That’s not what the verse I quoted states. It states that God will “take away” his part from the tree of life and the holy city. If salvation cannot be lost, how come this verse states that God can take it away? Saved in the past and present tenses means one has been forgiven of one’s sins, delivered from the power of sin, and growing in grace. That does not mean that one cannot lose his/her salvation by falling from grace.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ryanoneil]

That is no objection to OSAS, because the preservation of the saints by which they are enabled to persevere is what makes OSAS true.​

Not all who believe will persevere, because not all who believe are elected to salvation. but those who are elected to salvation, are sure to have been preserved; & so to have persevered.

It is because they are elected, that their calling is effectual - if not the first time they hear the Gospel-call, then later on: the crucified robber was elected, but was effectually called only on his cross. He was still called effectually - & was still preserved.

OSAS is brought about in time, as the fruit of a supra-temporal Divine calling. So God’s activity is not continuous with ours - it is not a level with ours. Once this is understood, many objections should be greatly eased. God is not one cause or phenomenon among others. God’s activity is causal, because creatures are not self-originated, but created & so, finite; it is causal in respect to what is effected by it, but not in respect to itself; so properly speaking, God’s causality is not causal in the same way as that of creatures. We use the notion of causality only because it helps us - not because it is strictly true. Yet some such language can’t be avoided in talk which relates God & creatures.

That is a complicated subject. Without getting to deep, I agree some are predestined to glory. But how does one know?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

You haven’t shown it to be false, and the fact that we can lose the assurance of salvation doesn’t mean OSAS is useless.

Hi Nick. If you don’t mind I’m going to refer to you=OSAS so I don’t have to type it out every time. If that is a problem let me know and I won’t do it.

How can you ever have the assurance of salvation when “the people who endure to the end prove their faith and are the same ones who are saved.” Since the demonstration of whether or not one is saved is whether or not the person “endures to the end,” you can never know that you are saved until “the end,” that is, when you die. In other words, because you cannot predict the future, you don’t even know if salvation is yours to begin with.

Being saved is a past, present, and future event that depends on enduring to the end. We Catholics know we are saved, so long as we persevere in faith. We know salvation is ours to lose.

1 Cor 9:27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[heisenburg]

Ryan…

Just to make one point clear… If understood properly, assured salvation in and of it self is in no way contrary to Catholic teaching…

However, I must make it very clear, only under proper understanding.

The Bible, and the Church BOTH teach us that we can test ourselves and know where we stand. If we test ourselves, and pass. We can be Assured that if we died right then, we would be saved. We are also told to continually testing ourselves to ensure we are still in His good graces.

So, being assured of salvation, if properly understood is in no way counter to Catholic teaching…

Where we differ from OSAS is that they believe once you validly test yourself as saved, it will never loose it…

In other words…
Catholic understanding says you can be assured, but only at present, and it says nothing about your future state.

OSAS says you can be assured about your current AND your future state.

However, as I mentioned, the ability to test is a key reason why OSAS is impossible.

Anyway…

Just wanted to clarify

IN Christ