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ryanoneil
Guest
Thanks heisenburg. That seems reasonable. It’s good to know where we stand. Do you know of any particular Bilble passages or online articles that talk about this.
Thank you,
Ryan
Thank you,
Ryan
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
That is a complicated subject. Without getting to deep, I agree some are predestined to glory. But how does one know?
Peace,
Ryan
Know:
- one is predestined - or
- elected - or
- that others are - or
- what is involved in the theology - or
- some thing or things else ?
I think we ask the wrong questions - so we condemn ourselves to getting wrong answers.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
No, God does not play that sort of game. The Cross shows how much He was in deadly earnest, and why. Man does play games, so he thinks that God is as deceitful as he is 
- but God constantly underlines His faithfulness. To be unfaithful, is to be not God. We would see this much more clearly, if we would only stop deifying ourselves & being God.
God is faithful, even when it is absolutely obvious & certain that He is a liar. Faith is not founded on anything short of His own word; reason is far too weak a foundation. Only something unconditioned by the world will do; & that thing, is God’s promise & word. God is not feeble - man is - so His word always does all His Will with total effect; it is totally irresistible & cannot be evaded.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
The Church infallibly teaches that apart from a divine revelation the Christian does not know if they will persevere. This goes right along with the Scriptures warning us to always be on guard (eg Mat 25:1-13; 2 Pt 1:3-11)That is a complicated subject. Without getting to deep, I agree some are predestined to glory. But how does one know?
Peace,
Ryan
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ryanoneil
Guest
Thank you Gottle of Geer and Catholic Dude. I agree with you.
Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty.
Rom. 5:1-2 *Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God. *
Rom. 8:24-25* For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance.*
Peace,
Ryan
Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty.
Rom. 5:1-2 *Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God. *
Rom. 8:24-25* For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance.*
Peace,
Ryan
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reluctant_saint
Guest
Now all we need to determine is whether or not man can “know” he is going to heaven or whether man can only “believe” he is going to heaven. The problem with saying human reason cannot be trusted is that we would never know when we are deceiving ourselves. We look at the Bible and conclude, using our reason, that the Bible says such and such a thing. We may say the Holy Spirit leads us to believe in such and such a thing, but then again, how do we know that the Holy Spirit is not just another figment our our imagination.No, God does not play that sort of game. The Cross shows how much He was in deadly earnest, and why. Man does play games, so he thinks that God is as deceitful as he is
God is faithful, even when it is absolutely obvious & certain that He is a liar. Faith is not founded on anything short of His own word; reason is far too weak a foundation. Only something unconditioned by the world will do; & that thing, is God’s promise & word. God is not feeble - man is - so His word always does all His Will with total effect; it is totally irresistible & cannot be evaded.
Protestantism is by nature a closed system. It teaches that the Holy Spirit will tell us what the Scriptures say because the Scriptures say that that’s what the Holy Spirit will do. Cathilicism is an open system. It tells us we can use our reason to come to certain, though not all, truths. Catholicism also teaches that revelation and reason can never contradict one another.
Now, as far as OSAS is concerned, Catholics do believe in a predestination; but predestination always works through free will. For instance, Mary was chosen to be the mother of Jesus, but she herself had to concent to the word of the Angel. There are things that we simply cannot understand with our minds, but we believe them. That does not me they are contrary to reason. It only means certain things are beyond reason.
In order to truly understand what Catholics believe, we need to understand the Catholic concept of Sanctifying Grace. Because protestants don’t have this cencept (to them all graces are equal), they do not understand what Catholics mean when we say man can lose his salvation. Sanctifying Grace is that which makes a person worthy of heaven. When a person loses his salvation, it’s not as is he was predestined for heaven once, and now he’s predestined for hell; he simply gives up his right to enter heaven. It’s a lot like Esau giving up his birthright to Jacob. Esau was entitled to the birthright, but he gave it up freely. So also, Sanctifying Grace is our birthright into the Kingdom of Heaven, but we can foolishly give up that birthright by mortal sin.
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
Jesus Chose Judas but also said about Judas “It would have been better for that man if he had never been born”.
If Judas was saved and is in heaven with Jesus that would contradict what Jesus said about Judas because certainly it is better to be with Jesus in heaven–no matter what suffering happens before that event–than to never have existed at all.
So if indeed it can logically be deduced from Jesus’ own words that Judas is in Hell–how could Jesus have chosen him? Jesus doesn’t choose what is bad.
The simple and only reason that makes sense is that Jesus Chose Judas and Judas Lost his salvation!
If Judas was saved and is in heaven with Jesus that would contradict what Jesus said about Judas because certainly it is better to be with Jesus in heaven–no matter what suffering happens before that event–than to never have existed at all.
So if indeed it can logically be deduced from Jesus’ own words that Judas is in Hell–how could Jesus have chosen him? Jesus doesn’t choose what is bad.
The simple and only reason that makes sense is that Jesus Chose Judas and Judas Lost his salvation!
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Nick_Jones
Guest
Jesus didn’t choose what is bad by choosing Judas. Salvation is good, even though it was necessary for human beings to sin (by crucifying Jesus) in order for salvation to be available for the elect.
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ryanoneil
Guest
John 6:70-71 ***Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?” He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve. *** Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
John 17:12 When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
Peace,
Ryan
John 17:12 When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
Peace,
Ryan
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
I would never say that Jesus did wrong by choosing him–Judas did wrong not only in betraying Jesus but despairing against the Holy Spirit and oif the ability of Jesus to forgive him.
Such blasphemy will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come.
Such blasphemy will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
I don’t see OSAS anywhere in Scripture.
Among literally hundreds of examples in Scripture why 's closing statement here for a bunch)James Akin, I think one of the clearest is the prophecy of:
Ezekiel 18:21-24 But **if a wicked man turns away **from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Among literally hundreds of examples in Scripture why 's closing statement here for a bunch)James Akin, I think one of the clearest is the prophecy of:
Ezekiel 18:21-24 But **if a wicked man turns away **from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
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Holly3278
Guest
OSAS is a false and heretical doctrine. Of course a person can lose their salvation and does the moment they commit a mortal sin!
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inthecloud
Guest
But supposing God’s promise is real, and you are saved, how do you know it?
And what about free will?
My opinion about OSAS is:
- The Scriptural foundation is weak.
- No serious evidence that someone believed in that until the Reformation.
- Wildy ilogical.
- In the end eternal security means eternal insecurity, how do you know you are really saved the first time and not is your mind ( or God) playing games.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
No ? He chooses sinners. Or are there no sinners in the Church today? If there are today - then there could be in the beginning.
He could not lose a salvation he did not receive to begin with - & nothing in the Bible or your post says that he did receve salvation. Being an Apostle. & not being among those elected to salvation (because election is the root of salvation, in some sense), are not incompatible.
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Cling2Cross
Guest
You are misusing this passage…this is speaking of external righteousness…I don’t see OSAS anywhere in Scripture.
Among literally hundreds of examples in Scripture why (read James Akin’s closing statement here for a bunch), I think one of the clearest is the prophecy of:
Ezekiel 18:21-24 But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
How about this one…
“If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.” (1 John 5:16-18, NKJV)
One who truly has been born again will not habitually sin unto death…period.
C2C
“For we **have become **partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,” (Hebrews 3:14, NKJV)
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MarcoPolo
Guest
I don’t know what you mean by “external righteousness” that leads to death. I think your interpretation is irreconcilable with the rest of Scripture, including Ezekiel (did you peruse the other link in my post?). The Hebrews passage you quoted even has the “if we hold” conditional clause.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Note the “if” in that passage.
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Cling2Cross
Guest
And I will have you notice the “have become”…perseverance is evidence in this scripture that one HAS BECOME a partaker with Christ.Note the “if” in that passage.
Also - nobody handled the more clear passage…
“If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.” (1 John 5:16-18, NKJV)
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
What about free will ?
That could also be said of some Catholic doctrines. OSAS can be justified by the same theological reasoning as is used to justify Catholic doctrines: that it was latent in the sources of revelation, & had therefore always been implicitly believed. St. Ignatius of Antioch does not refer to it - neither does he refer to the mediation of all graces by the BVM. If one doctrine can be Catholic yet implicit, so can OSAS. That it is not accepted at present, is no proof it won’t be. It has quite a solid Biblical foundation
So many doctrines seem to be, unless & until one looks at them thoroughly & sympathetically - the same could be said of most Catholic or Christian doctrines: such as the Incarnation or the Crucifixion.
Because the more we forget our own selfish anxieties on this point, & the more we look to Him, rather than ourselves, the more we are going to be the sort of people who are saved.
God does not play games - we’ve been over this already. He cannot lie. ES is not a thing we do - it’s something He does, He gives, He provides. Insecurity ? Anything but !Plants don’t grow & flourish by tearing up their roots, but by being nourished by the sun. So with Christians: we will get nowhere if we insist on tearing up our roots to see whether or how much we are growing into salvation; for the roots are what allow us to be growing. You’re still treating OSAS as though it were dependent on us. It is not. Spousal love does not grow as a result of selfish obsession with one’s own good; that’s how to kill a marriage. It grows by love of one another - & love is self-forgetful; it is poured out, not turned inward. And that is how we grow into salvation - we find ourselves in the measure that we forget ourselves. That is the dialectic of OSAS, or part of it. This is paradoxical, like so much in Christian life. Paradoxes are true - not false. And even this is an oversimplification - for the salvation of all the elect is assisted by countless causes, all of them governed & made fruitful by God, without Whom no creature can do anything.
As for trusting God - one trusts Him by trusting Him, not by theorising about trusting Him. God is the only Reality - therefore, no temptation to distrust or doubt Him is worth a second’s notice. The only sanity is to trust Him without the slightest reserve - it is not possible for God to be false; that is what we are, never what He is. BTW - OSAS should never be confused with assurance of salvation. OSAS does not depend for its reality on awareness of it - whereas assurance is not possessed without awareness of it.
One believes Him, even when believing Him is senseless - or one does not believe Him. And one cannot have faith in Him by proxy.
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guanophore
Guest
This clearly does not wash. Judas went out with the 12 and with the 72. Jesus told them all to rejoice that their names were written in the book of life.
Furthermore, Lucifer was in heaven with God!!! How can you say he was not saved? He threw away his privilege to be in God’s presence.
With respect to that, Jesus tells the disciples that, if they persevere, he will not blot out their names from the book of life. How can you blot out a name that was not written? Why would Jesus say He would not blot it out if that were not possible?
This is true, of course, but all it demonstrates is that “saved from hell” is not a comprehensive definition of what it means to be saved.
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