OSAS/Calvinism/Armenianism (Again)

[exiled]

I can only speak for the people who were called and gave me testimony of the call. I can’t speak for people who never returned and died in their sin. That would be presumptuous

Here I go again…
How do you know that you, or those who gave you testimony, **will not **fall? You can not know what you, or your friends, will do next week, next month, next year, etc.
What if they/you (God forbid) lose a child/a spouse and then blame God? (and if someone has already carried this cross, God forbid it happens again) I am just delighted that you have the fruit of the Holy Spirit right now, but I am not interested in your answer to the now, I want an answer to the *later.*There are many, many good people, trying to do God’s Will, and by all appearances are “saved” according to you. But some of them will fall away, there can be no doubt about that. So, what does that mean?
And I still, still, still don’t get how someone who wanted to be saved, thought they were saved, but weren’t saved, ever had any chance to be saved in the first place, without the grace of God that comes from being saved?

 

[I_Leatherman]

What about the OSAS guy who was saved on Jan 1st 1960.
His OSAS friend tells him he is and always was one of the Elect and was always guaranteed salvation.
Next the guy rejects religion for crime and sin and all that…
His friend tells him … ‘Ah but you were never saved in the first place!’
Next the guy repents turns to religion again and is saved again.
His friend tells him …‘Ahah…but you were always one of the Elect!’
Next the guy rejects religion for crime and sin and all that…
His friend tells him …‘Ahh…but you were never saved in the first place.’
Next the guy repents…and so on and so on…:banghead:

 

[newbie1234]

What about the OSAS guy who was saved on Jan 1st 1960.
His OSAS friend tells him he is and always was one of the Elect and was always guaranteed salvation.
Next the guy rejects religion for crime and sin and all that…
His friend tells him … ‘Ah but you were never saved in the first place!’
Next the guy repents turns to religion again and is saved again.
His friend tells him …‘Ahah…but you were always one of the Elect!’
Next the guy rejects religion for crime and sin and all that…
His friend tells him …‘Ahh…but you were never saved in the first place.’
Next the guy repents…and so on and so on…:banghead:

The friend has no business telling the guy whether he is saved or not. You are missing the point of the powerful ministry of the Holy Spirit. When you are saved, you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He lives inside you. You can usually feel His presence. That’s how you know. The conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[exiled]

I would like to address the obedience necessary for salvation. Everyone here is familiar with Scripture passages that call for obedience, so I will not repeat them. But, I think it is worth considering that obedience is a virtue to be practiced by submitting to a proper authority. Now as in parent/child relationship, the child does not necessarily understand why they are being told to do something, it is only their duty to do as they are told by the rightful authority. If obedience only follows an intellectual assent to whatever-they-are-being-told, it ceases to be the virtue of obedience.
I am about to make a blanket statement, and if you think I am way out of line, forgive me, but I’m only sharing my observation.
Protestants are usually pretty good Christians on the whole, but they only “obey” those commands that they have determined, by their own interpretation of the Bible, to be still in place. Nobody can tell them to obey something that they don’t see in Scripture, that they haven’t intellectually determined is there. There is no obedience in that, as far as I can tell.
Now I’ll wait for someone to pounce.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Now I’ll wait for someone to pounce.

Well, not pounce, but offer assistance.

First of all, you made a mistake in your first post by saying ‘protestant theology’, it’s ‘theologies’.

Here’s a nutshell overview of the three theologies:

OSAS = Once you have been saved, no matter what you do, you can never lose your salvation.

Arminianism = Arminians actually come in two flavors - Reformed Arminians & WesleyanArminians, some may say there is an in between also.

A Wesleyan Arminian technically should only lose their salvation if they formally apostasize (Heb 6) or take the Mark of the Beast. (of which no true Christian would anyway)

A Reformed Arminian believes that a truly saved person is predestined and like OSAS, if God predestines you, you cannot be lost.

Calvinism = Whom God predestines cannot be lost, whom God doesn’t predestine cannot be saved.

Now your question is about ‘eternal security’, How do we know we are really saved?

The fact is this, unless you adhere to OSAS, you don’t, but you can wager you are by evidence of a changed life.

Now what we are really dealing with here - what I believe is the stumbling block for you exiled - is not eternal security but false faith.

In the analogy you gave, the commited Christian who lives x number of years then loses a child tragically and falls away is really an issue of false faith.

Because, if that person falls away then all those years they read their Bible, forgave people, went to church, tithed etc were all a big lie

This is a really difficult concept and one I struggle with, here’s why.

I have alot of respect for Mormons, but I don’t believe they are Christian.

Mormons show all the fruits that should come with the Holy Spirit, they live good lives, are polite, they tithe, they attend their church regularly, they watch their mouths, they watch their diets so as not to corrupt their bodies (temple of the Holy Spirit) and yet all these fruits are supposed to be brought about by and exclusive to the Holy Spirit’s work.

So do Mormons have a false faith? Can a demon make Mormons act like true Christians should under the Holy Spirit?

Good question.

At this point, I don’t know what the answer is, the topic of eternal security is very tricky.

Now to your question:

Protestants are usually pretty good Christians on the whole, but they only “obey” those commands that they have determined, by their own interpretation of the Bible, to be still in place. Nobody can tell them to obey something that they don’t see in Scripture, that they haven’t intellectually determined is there. There is no obedience in that, as far as I can tell.

The Holy Spirit - if present - will convict even if the person is ignorant of breaking laws.

A great example of this is the “What Would Jesus Do?” (WWJD) movement?

These Christians asked themselves before performing any act they were unsure about “What Would Jesus do?”, and if more Christians applied this, they’d be better for it.

The fact is the Bible leaves alot out, it’s not exhaustive, but we have evidence from the Scriptures to know how God feels about nearly everything on Earth.

I hope this has helped.

Love,
Rev

 

[newbie1234]

Well, not pounce, but offer assistance.

First of all, you made a mistake in your first post by saying ‘protestant theology’, it’s ‘theologies’.

Here’s a nutshell overview of the three theologies:

OSAS = Once you have been saved, no matter what you do, you can never lose your salvation.

Arminianism = Arminians actually come in two flavors - Reformed Arminians & WesleyanArminians, some may say there is an in between also.

A Wesleyan Arminian technically should only lose their salvation if they formally apostasize (Heb 6) or take the Mark of the Beast. (of which no true Christian would anyway)

A Reformed Arminian believes that a truly saved person is predestined and like OSAS, if God predestines you, you cannot be lost.

Calvinism = Whom God predestines cannot be lost, whom God doesn’t predestine cannot be saved.

Now your question is about ‘eternal security’, How do we know we are really saved?

The fact is this, unless you adhere to OSAS, you don’t, but you can wager you are by evidence of a changed life.

Now what we are really dealing with here - what I believe is the stumbling block for you exiled - is not eternal security but false faith.

In the analogy you gave, the commited Christian who lives x number of years then loses a child tragically and falls away is really an issue of false faith.

Because, if that person falls away then all those years they read their Bible, forgave people, went to church, tithed etc were all a big lie

This is a really difficult concept and one I struggle with, here’s why.

I have alot of respect for Mormons, but I don’t believe they are Christian.

Mormons show all the fruits that should come with the Holy Spirit, they live good lives, are polite, they tithe, they attend their church regularly, they watch their mouths, they watch their diets so as not to corrupt their bodies (temple of the Holy Spirit) and yet all these fruits are supposed to be brought about by and exclusive to the Holy Spirit’s work.

So do Mormons have a false faith? Can a demon make Mormons act like true Christians should under the Holy Spirit?

Good question.

At this point, I don’t know what the answer is, the topic of eternal security is very tricky.

Now to your question:
exiled;1908018:

Protestants are usually pretty good Christians on the whole, but they only “obey” those commands that they have determined, by their own interpretation of the Bible, to be still in place. Nobody can tell them to obey something that they don’t see in Scripture, that they haven’t intellectually determined is there. There is no obedience in that, as far as I can tell.

The Holy Spirit - if present - will convict even if the person is ignorant of breaking laws.

A great example of this is the “What Would Jesus Do?” (WWJD) movement?

These Christians asked themselves before performing any act they were unsure about “What Would Jesus do?”, and if more Christians applied this, they’d be better for it.

The fact is the Bible leaves alot out, it’s not exhaustive, but we have evidence from the Scriptures to know how God feels about nearly everything on Earth.

I hope this has helped.

Love,
Rev

Great answer. You know your stuff.

 

[exiled]

Thanks, Rev,
So my next question would be, how does this differ, in effect, from Catholic mortal sin? One falls into mortal sin, and their salvation is lost if they do not repent before death. (you can repent without Confession, but it is not the normative means as you’ve all heard). Someone who persists in mortal sin is like the one you say fell away and didn’t return. If the soul does return/confess, then all is well.
I do not agree that the person was living a “false faith” if they fell away. Some crosses can be really heavy (heck, by definition, a cross is heavy) and I don’t think any of us carry them without grace, which brings me to my actually stumbling block which I’ve already said 3 times now. How did someone who was denied grace from the get-go, because God knew that they would fall, ever have a chance? This is the part of OSAS that I just cannot get over. This is why the Catholic position is the one in keeping with a kind, loving father who desires all of His children to be with Him. Grace is available to all of us, every time we go to Him and ask for it. That grace strengthens us for current and future trials. Someone who is truly working out his salvation in fear and trembling, whether Catholic or Protestant, is not likely to fall into what-Catholics-call mortal sin.
As for the Mormons, you have given a great example of appearances vs. true faith, but I do not think this phenomena is exclusive to non-Trinitarians. As a Catholic, who firmly believes in the Catholic Church, I believe Satan is perfectly happy seeing souls who do not believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and who have been separated from His Body, which is the Catholic Church. As C.S. Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters, get them focused on the wrong thing.
Neither I, nor the Catholic Church, is saying that you must be Catholic to get to Heaven, but it sure does make it a LOT harder.

 

[exiled]

“B]The fact is the Bible leaves alot out, it’s not exhaustive, but we have evidence from the Scriptures to know how God feels about nearly everything on Earth./B]****”

I completely agree!
So do you not think this is also how the Catholic Church has determined certain doctrines?
I’m going to use artificial contraception as my example since we’ve exhausted Marian dogmas, etc.
I have an SS friend who is really searching the Scriptures for the answer to God’s Will re: birth control. She is leaning towards what the Catholic Church has been teaching for 30+ years. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, has taught consistently that ABC violates the complete giving of husband and wife to each other, modeled after Christ’s relationship with His Church.
Science is starting to catch up with the detrimental effects assorted means of contraception have on women’s health, and we see the societal impact of the failure of it all around us.
So, what’s my point? I forgot…
I guess my point was, if you could only trust the Church Christ established as much as you trust the book He never told anyone to write, you’d be light years ahead in the spiritual battle.
And lastly, the obedience thing. Do you see a difference between obedience as a virtue, and obedience because you have been intellectually convinced of something? We are to be like children, and children must be obedient to us whether or not they understand all of the nuances of what we tell them. If my son only obeys that which we understands and agrees with, he is no longer obedient.
Well, I feel as though I’m all over the place in this post, so I’ll leave for the day and let you hammer out what you feel like responding to.
Have a safe and holy day.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Thanks, Rev,
So my next question would be, how does this differ, in effect, from Catholic mortal sin? One falls into mortal sin, and their salvation is lost if they do not repent before death. (you can repent without Confession, but it is not the normative means as you’ve all heard). Someone who persists in mortal sin is like the one you say fell away and didn’t return. If the soul does return/confess, then all is well.

Ok it differs like this:

A Catholic comes out the Cathedral after confession and happy that he is sinless. On the way home he looks at a woman on the train with lust in his heart. That night he masturbates. The next day is Sunday, he chooses not to go to Mass because he is tired. Sunday night he dies, he goes to Hell.

A Protestant does the exact same thing as the Catholic did (minus the confession at Church), but he goes to Heaven.

Why?

Here’s why:

Because in Protestantism, God is always faithful to us, even when we are not faithful to him.

Now don’t think we Protestants have carte blanche to sin en masse, we don’t, we suffer for our sins.

See, the Holy Spirit is like water, and our bodies are like a cup. When we sin, we poke a hole in the bottom of that cup, the more sins, the more holes, until eventually the amount of Holy Spirit in you will be trace elements.

God has promised he won’t leave us unless we ask him to (heb 6) but at the same time he can’t be near us while we sin unrepentantly.

If we bring our sins to the Father through Christ (our intercessor) he is faithful and just to forgive us.

But … God is no dummy. Repent means “change of heart”, he will not forgive us if we do not have a change of heart, that’s false repentance, you’re not coming to him out of contrition, but atrition. (contrition means you’re sorry you did it, atrition means you’re sorry you were caught)

This is most eloquently shown in the two thieves on the crosses near Jesus, one acknowledged he deserved to be there and simply asked Jesus to remember him (sola fide) and Jesus promised him paradise.

The other mocked Jesus and was unrepentant.

The fundamental difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is that Mortal Sin in Catholicism is a threat to your salvation, but not to Protestantism, it is a threat to your rewards in heaven (you’ll probably be the least in heaven) but he’ll accept you.

But (and it’s a big but) if a person sins unrepentantly don’t assume they are saved.

Paul said we should work out our faith with ‘fear and trembling’, that we should ‘make our election sure’.

The fact is James says that faith without works is dead.

If a Protestant repents and says he accepts Jesus and sins continually without remorse, he has no works, clearly the Holy Spirit is not there, a false conversion, he is the seed that fell but the weeds (earthly pleasures) strangled him. (if he even got that far)

The Holy Spirit in the believer will grow as you draw closer to God, and as you do, you will be able to resist sin more.

I know from personal experience, having quenched the Holy Spirit severly that it is an awful experience.

Some people say that quenching the Holy Spirit doesn’t rob you of your salvation, but it robs you of the joy in your salvation.

It causes you to doubt if you are really saved, it causes you to feel far away from God, it’s awful and unless you’ve experienced it, you won’t have a problem with the occasional sin.

I do not agree that the person was living a “false faith” if they fell away. Some crosses can be really heavy (heck, by definition, a cross is heavy) and I don’t think any of us carry them without grace, which brings me to my actually stumbling block which I’ve already said 3 times now. How did someone who was denied grace from the get-go, because God knew that they would fall, ever have a chance?

Answer: They didn’t.

Calvinism takes this to the extreme with predestination.

continued

 

[Revelation13_16]

This is the part of OSAS that I just cannot get over. This is why the Catholic position is the one in keeping with a kind, loving father who desires all of His children to be with Him. Grace is available to all of us, every time we go to Him and ask for it. That grace strengthens us for current and future trials. Someone who is truly working out his salvation in fear and trembling, whether Catholic or Protestant,** is not likely to fall into what-Catholics-call mortal sin.**

I think you’re wrong for this reason.

Dude you & I commit Mortal Sins everyday.

I was on the train coming back from Church on a sunday and a nice girl was on the train. My eye wandered a bit to her open blouse, and I repented and continued reading my Bible.

I’m nearly 30 and celebant, it’s a hard road, I’m competing against my biology that wants me to breed.

Christ said “anyone who looks upon a woman with lust in his heart is an adulterer”, so I, as a celebant virgin protestant am an adulterer.

Christ was trying to tell us that it’s not our acts that necessarily make us ‘mortal sinners’ but just the thoughts are enough to show us how corrupt we are.

If you study philosophy you’ll notice that what you concieve in your thoughts exists in intellectu.

Put it this way, if we do good works, but in our hearts we desire sin are we good? No.

Would you say if God had evil desires but didn’t carry them out that he would be a perfect God? No.

That’s why the Old Covenant of works didn’t work, only a one time atonement (“It is finished”) is suffice to save us, we can’t save ourselves, all our works are filthy rags.

We slip, we fall, we get back up again.

As for the Mormons, you have given a great example of appearances vs. true faith, but I do not think this phenomena is exclusive to non-Trinitarians. As a Catholic, who firmly believes in the Catholic Church, I believe Satan is perfectly happy seeing souls who do not believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and who have been separated from His Body, which is the Catholic Church. As C.S. Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters, get them focused on the wrong thing.

Yes but the door swings both ways my friend.

If the Catholic Church is the real church then surely Satan would be happy to see as many as possible outside of her.

But, if the Catholic Church is just one body in Christ’s spiritual church, then surely Satan is laughing that people are trusting in the dogma of men rather than the scriptures of God.

Satan is a corrupter, it’s all he does 24/7, he roams around like a lion seeking to devour whom he may.

Re: C.S Lewis, Screwtape, and the wrong thing, just imagine for one second - just a second - the following:

If the Catholic Church is not infallible - if - how much do you think it would delight Satan to see people being misled to think that anything more than simple faith in Jesus was necessary for salvation?

How many kicks would he get out of seeing people use Mary as an intercessor when the scriptures say that Christ is our intercessor?

That’s why whatever religion you are, if you don’t seek the truth, the unequivocal truth, you serve Satan, and do yourself a great disservice.

Neither I, nor the Catholic Church, is saying that you must be Catholic to get to Heaven, but it sure does make it a LOT harder.

I’m reminded of that thief on the cross that simply asked Jesus to remember him. He just believed and Jesus promised him paradise.

Was Jesus a liar?

Love,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

“**B]The fact is the Bible leaves alot out, it’s not exhaustive, but we have evidence from the Scriptures to know how God feels about nearly everything on Earth./**B]****”

I completely agree!
So do you not think this is also how the Catholic Church has determined certain doctrines?
I’m going to use artificial contraception as my example since we’ve exhausted Marian dogmas, etc.
I have an SS friend who is really searching the Scriptures for the answer to God’s Will re: birth control. She is leaning towards what the Catholic Church has been teaching for 30+ years. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, has taught consistently that ABC violates the complete giving of husband and wife to each other, modeled after Christ’s relationship with His Church.
Science is starting to catch up with the detrimental effects assorted means of contraception have on women’s health, and we see the societal impact of the failure of it all around us.
So, what’s my point? I forgot…
I guess my point was, if you could only trust the Church Christ established as much as you trust the book He never told anyone to write, you’d be light years ahead in the spiritual battle.

There’s going to be no easy answer to this but here goes.

God created sex to be enjoyed between husband and wife.

Sex, like eating, is good.

Sex, like eating, before sin had no consequences.

Sex, like eating, after the fall has consequences.

Now without being crude, lets explore this:

Let’s say a Catholic man wants to have as much sex as possible with his wife in a year without using birth control.

How many times can they have sex without using birth control?

Firstly, the first few times they do it, if neither have a medical problem, she’s going to concieve.

They then have until the end of the first tri-mester to have as much sex as possible, after that no sex until she gets out of hosptial and is sufficiently rested.

So, your average Catholic has what 4 months in total of unlimited sex?

4 months dude.

If you think a married man can abstain from masturbation or ‘extra’ activites during the second and third trimesters, then you’d have to be naive.

This is a consequence of sin, sin spoils everything.

Now lets look at Protestants.

Protestants can use ABC and they can enjoy each other for 12 months of the year.

12 months.

Now maybe they are separated by a think layer of latex, or maybe it’s a sponge, or a pill (I don’t like the pill personally) but that’s a concession sin forces them to make.

Just like 4 months with the Catholics, sin always forces us to compromise.

That pre-fallen state is gone.

Lastly on ABC, ask yourself what is the lesser of two evils, ABC or conception?

I think Columbia is a great example. The Catholic Church has said that condoms are the same as selling guns on the street.

But Columbia is one of the most dangerous places in the world. Kids live on the street because their parents can’t feed them. They join gangs and kill each other and other innocent people. They lose their faith (naturally), and many young men become gay prostitutes because they need money.

Mortal sin everywhere.

But that’s the nature of sin, it forces you to make the choice, who is going to take the responsibility for this sin?

For me, I’d much rather take a bunch of Mortal Sin for my lust, than produce a kid I didn’t really want at this time in my life, and who I might not have the means to provide for.

continued

 

[Revelation13_16]

from above

Because you know that child will be tempted to sin because of his situation.

What did Jesus say?

“It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.”

I can’t believe personally - and maybe I’m wrong - that a poor family in Columbia who chooses to have another kid, and know that he’s probably going to be dead before 15 or end up a male prostitute or murderer would be praised by the church for not using ABC.

“what about the children?”

What’s the lesser of two evils here my friend?

The Bible says nothing about contraception, and the cynic in me says the Catholic Church likes it’s laity to have more kids because it’s more money in baptism, confirmation, and church numbers.

That’s fine from a company P.O.V but for those kids who have to grow up in that environment, it’s hell, I just couldn’t do it mate.

Lastly, I don’t think one who avoids ABC avoids sin. There’s still the sin of selfishness, if both a man and woman choose their own pleasure in lieu of thinking of their child’s welfare, then it must be the same as using ABC, two sins are commited in either case:

Scenario 1 - Baby made

Parents: sin of selfishness
Child: guaranteed sin in future

Scenario 2 - ABC used

Parents: sin of selfishness
Parents: sin of contraception

Considering that in Scenario 1, your kid could become an atheist, gay prostitute, etc if you don’t give him the right home (even if you do it could still happen!) I don’t think Sceanrio 2 is so bad.

I think the Catholic Church is wrong on this one personally, Protestants and Orthodox don’t hold the same view, for good reason.

continued

 

[Revelation13_16]

And lastly, the obedience thing. Do you see a difference between obedience as a virtue, and obedience because you have been intellectually convinced of something? We are to be like children, and children must be obedient to us whether or not they understand all of the nuances of what we tell them. If my son only obeys that which we understands and agrees with, he is no longer obedient.

But who says we are obedient by Nature?

Look at Ephesians 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

After the fall, we become disobedient by nature, rebellious and self serving like Lucifer.

Yes, you argue if you child obeys only because he understands he is no longer obedient, I say he is and he isn’t.

He’s disobedient of things he doesn’t understand, but that is ignorance and can’t be held against him because his nature after the fall is flawed.

And while he is obedient after he understands, he only does it because he understands.

But God’s way, the way you want him (the child) to act is obedience from love.

You see, if you tell your son “Hey, don’t touch the stove or you’ll get burnt” the child understands that it is detrimental for him to touch the stove.

He obeys only because it is in his own selfish interest

He obeys from fear of pain

But you want him to obey from love.

You want him to obey not from understanding his consequences (ie “If I do it, I will feel pain”) but from the mere fact that his love for you stops him from doing it. (ie- “I don’t know why I can’t do this, but Daddy said not to, and I love Daddy so I won’t do it”)

This second kind of obedience, like all things, comes from love, and Paul said love was the greatest thing.

Love is pure, but alas we are not.

God can make us pure slowly on Earth, but it’s a process, and we’ll never be fully pure until we reach heaven, when we are given the resurrection bodies. (because these old bodies are corrupt)

So on the surface, both kids can obey, but only the one that does it out of love does it from the right emotion.

Only Christ can do that in us through the Holy Spirit, without which we cannot do ourselves, we are reliant on his grace. (all good things come from God)

Well, I feel as though I’m all over the place in this post, so I’ll leave for the day and let you hammer out what you feel like responding to.
Have a safe and holy day.

Cheers, you too, I’m going to bed.

Love,
Rev

 

[I_Leatherman]

The friend has no business telling the guy whether he is saved or not. You are missing the point of the powerful ministry of the Holy Spirit. When you are saved, you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He lives inside you. You can usually feel His presence. That’s how you know. The conviction of the Holy Spirit.

The OSAS ‘THEOLOGY’ is the friend thats telling the guy…

 

[heisenburg]

Newbie…

I have a simple question, and mean no disrespect. You commented on how you can feel he is inside of you and thats is one of the ways you know you are saved for all time. You also have implied that once saved, nothing can ever seperate you… My question is simple…

There are frequently days where I want nothing mroe than to sit before a cross, ponder its meaning, pray, read the bible, pray somemore, become overwhelled with thankfulness for what he did for us. - By a part of your Definition, I am truely Saved and nothing can seperate.

There are also days that I am frustrated, grouchy, whatever, and I feel zero inclination to even say “Hi God!” - By the same definition, I am not saved and therefore seperated.

Then, If I lay down, think about the day, FORCE myself to pray the rosary/Force myself to read the bible/Contemplate what he has done, and the feeling of “I want nothing more than to follow christ returns” - wait, I guess I was always Saved…

So, which is it, am I saved, or Not saved? My emotions went all over the place, so hopefuly you will tell me that feelings are not an accurate indicator

Second…

I Know I sin… I have no Doubt that i sin. And I know that there have been times when I have committed a sin that WOULD seperate me from God. It saddens me to admit I am still capable of these things, but (like paul) i do not do the things that I want, but the very thing that I hate. –

So, By your definition of OSAS, am i therefore NOT saved since I am still capable of doing things to seperate me? I know I have broken Commandments…

However, I always come back to him, repent in scencerity, and do what i can to avoid those things again… Sometimes I fail, but progress is slowly made. Does this therefore mean that I really am saved for all time?

Would I have been saved when I was in grave sin? What if the time frame between repentances was a long time? What If I died while in that state? Are you going to tell me that if i was truely saved, I could NEVER do what Christ asked of us, and still get into heaven?

It cant be both ways…

Am I saved by your understanding or not?

I can Judge myself and know if I would be judged worthy based on my actions right now. I cannot say anythign about tomorrow, and that is why Paul says we must race the race to the end.

To You In Christ

 

[Linkowski]

Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

The Greek verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to fulfillment or completion.” It cannot refer to salvation by works (Rom. 3:21–24; Eph. 2:8, 9), but it does refer to the believer’s responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of sanctification (Phil 3:13, 14; Rom. 6:19; 1 Cor. 9:24–27; 15:58; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 6:7–9; Eph. 4:1; Col. 3:1–17; Heb. 6:10, 11; 12:1, 2; 2 Pet. 1:5–11). The “fear and trembling” is the attitude with which Christians are to pursue their sanctification. It involves a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (Prov. 1:7; 9:10; Is. 66:1, 2).

You are correct - we are to make certain of our calling and election and to walk worthy of our calling. But you want to interpret this scripture over and over again to indicate that I must be utterly fearful of losing salvation (which is impossible according to scripture if I am, indeed, born again).

What kind of God is it that you have that says - you must be born again in order to escape eternal condemnation and then dos not allow you to have the assurance whether or not you are born again…

John was sure…

1 John 5:19 NAS95 19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Paul said something neat…

Hebrews 10:38-39 NAS95 38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. 39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

And John said that we can know…

1 John 5:13 NAS95 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

You must be born again!! BUT…you will not know whether you are or not!!! How terrible! This is the hope we have and the reason that we can rejoice and serve Him.

 

[Linkowski]

By the way, make sure you do not mix OSAS with assurance of salvation. They are two different things (although there is a relation).

 

[newbie1234]

Newbie…

I have a simple question, and mean no disrespect. You commented on how you can feel he is inside of you and thats is one of the ways you know you are saved for all time. You also have implied that once saved, nothing can ever seperate you… My question is simple…

There are frequently days where I want nothing mroe than to sit before a cross, ponder its meaning, pray, read the bible, pray somemore, become overwhelled with thankfulness for what he did for us. - By a part of your Definition, I am truely Saved and nothing can seperate.

There are also days that I am frustrated, grouchy, whatever, and I feel zero inclination to even say “Hi God!” - By the same definition, I am not saved and therefore seperated.

Then, If I lay down, think about the day, FORCE myself to pray the rosary/Force myself to read the bible/Contemplate what he has done, and the feeling of “I want nothing more than to follow christ returns” - wait, I guess I was always Saved…

So, which is it, am I saved, or Not saved? My emotions went all over the place, so hopefuly you will tell me that feelings are not an accurate indicator

Second…

I Know I sin… I have no Doubt that i sin. And I know that there have been times when I have committed a sin that WOULD seperate me from God. It saddens me to admit I am still capable of these things, but (like paul) i do not do the things that I want, but the very thing that I hate. –

So, By your definition of OSAS, am i therefore NOT saved since I am still capable of doing things to seperate me? I know I have broken Commandments…

However, I always come back to him, repent in scencerity, and do what i can to avoid those things again… Sometimes I fail, but progress is slowly made. Does this therefore mean that I really am saved for all time?

Would I have been saved when I was in grave sin? What if the time frame between repentances was a long time? What If I died while in that state? Are you going to tell me that if i was truely saved, I could NEVER do what Christ asked of us, and still get into heaven?

It cant be both ways…

Am I saved by your understanding or not?

I can Judge myself and know if I would be judged worthy based on my actions right now. I cannot say anythign about tomorrow, and that is why Paul says we must race the race to the end.

To You In Christ

If you are saved there would be a change in life. A noticeable change
Ask a born again christian and they will tell you the exact day it happened. Even if it was twenty years ago.
I remember my change like it was yesterday, and it was seventeen years ago. When the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you know it. Even Your speech starts to change, everthing is different. The HS starts to convict you of all the things you have to put away.
Then one day, your life looks totally different than when you were unsaved.
When you are saved you begin to get a hunger for the truth of Gods Word.
You want to do things to please God, because you love Him.
You love being in church because you hunger for maturity in the faith.
I don’t know if you are saved, but ask yourself if you’ve experienced any of the things I just mentioned.

 

[NotWorthy]

If you are saved there would be a change in life. A noticeable change
Ask a born again christian and they will tell you the exact day it happened. Even if it was twenty years ago.
I remember my change like it was yesterday, and it was seventeen years ago. When the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you know it. Even Your speech starts to change, everthing is different. The HS starts to convict you of all the things you have to put away.
Then one day, your life looks totally different than when you were unsaved.
When you are saved you begin to get a hunger for the truth of Gods Word.
** You want to do things to please God, because you love Him.
You love being in church because you hunger for maturity in the faith.**
I don’t know if you are saved, but ask yourself if you’ve experienced any of the things I just mentioned.

You’ve just described me, but the feelings you’ve described crept into me over a period of 12-18 months, not overnight.

 

[newbie1234]

You’ve just described me, but the feelings you’ve described crept into me over a period of 12-18 months, not overnight.

It is different for everyone.