OSAS disturbed once and for all

[Linkowski]

On the contrary…it says - if you have become IN CHRIST…you will persevere. If you say any other thing - you are twisting scripture.

It is like saying - you will persevere if you have become a partaker of Christ. The key words here are HAVE BECOME.

Perfected, justified, forgiven, sanctified (and being sanctified)…Linkowski

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

 

[deb1]

On the contrary…it says - if you have become IN CHRIST…you will persevere. If you say any other thing - you are twisting scripture.

It is like saying - you will persevere if you have become a partaker of Christ.

Perfected, justified, forgiven, sanctified (and being sanctified)…Linkowski

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

So, if I don’t accept your opinion on scripture then I am twisting the verses, that is convenient for you.

In order to understand Hebrews 10:14 you have to read two verses up. It says But this one offered one sacrifice for sins and took his seat forever at the right hand of God. Now he waits until his enemies are made his footstool

The verse you quoted is discussing Christ’s death on the cross.

I have to go and read to my daughters.

 

[Linkowski]

So, if I don’t accept your opinion on scripture then I am twisting the verses, that is convenient for you.

In order to understand Hebrews 10:14 you have to read two verses up. It says But this one offered one sacrifice for sins and took his seat forever at the right hand of God. Now he waits until his enemies are made his footstool
**
The verse you quoted is discussing Christ’s death on the cross. That is the offering.

Please interpret the verse…Jesus wept. OPEN YOUR EYES. You are rebelling against clear truth.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hardly, friend.

What you will not realize is that the three dimensions are split into Justification (past), sanctification (present), and glorification (future). I will be brief and present the golden chain of salvation…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And you will not accept scriptures such as Hebrews 3:14…

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Which presents perseverance as an evidence of salvation and not a condition (although we are also told that we MUST persevere).

You also will not read Romans Chapter 9 properly which shows that the elect (chosen) are chosen from before the foundation of the world…therefore, once they come to faith, it is done - once saved always saved.

See the thread…Evangelicals - How do you know you have saving faith. I have shown this quite explictly.

There is a wonderful book on evangelical assurance called “Heaven on Earth”, by the Puritan Thomas Brooks, which was written in 1654; it’s a Puritan Paperback. He explains the doctrine very thoroughly & very graciously & Biblically.​

If people read it, I think a lot of the misconceptions about OSAS would vanish. OSAS is vulnerable ***if ***it is based on human merit, or is thought to be - once one realises that it has no other foundation than the Grace of God, Who elects as & whom He sees fit purely because it it is His own gracious purpose so to do, the more absurd
objections vanish like the morning mist. It remains impenetrable, admittedly - but that is hardly an objection to it. OSAS in that sense has no more to do with carnal security & the disobedience to Grace it results in, than light has to do with darkness.

Predestination & election are Biblical truths - they can no more be omitted than can the Atonement (from which they cannot be separated).

 

[Pax]

## There is a wonderful book on evangelical assurance called “Heaven on Earth”, by the Puritan Thomas Brooks, which was written in 1654; it’s a Puritan Paperback. He explains the doctrine very thoroughly & very graciously & Biblically.

If people read it, I think a lot of the misconceptions about OSAS would vanish. OSAS is vulnerable ***if ***it is based on human merit, or is thought to be - once one realises that it has no other foundation than the Grace of God, Who elects as & whom He sees fit purely because it it is His own gracious purpose so to do, the more absurd
objections vanish like the morning mist. It remains impenetrable, admittedly - but that is hardly an objection to it. OSAS in that sense has no more to do with carnal security & the disobedience to Grace it results in, than light has to do with darkness.

Predestination & election are Biblical truths - they can no more be omitted than can the Atonement (from which they cannot be separated).

The understandings based on scripture of predestination and election are where the problems reside. Catholic teaching supports both, but it in no way accepts OSAS. No one that I know of that accepts OSAS believes that OSAS is based on human merit. That is not what makes the teaching vulnerable. The vulnerability in the teaching is tied up in free will as well as a lack of appreciation for the transformative power of God’s grace. OSAS makes the transformative power of God’s grace and free will unimportant.

God’s purpose for the predestined is to “conform them to the image of his Son,”[see Rom 8:29] OSAS believers see no necessity in this and believe that no matter what you do after being initially justified you are forever saved. Moreover, the teaching denies a person’s ability to turn from God by an act of free will which will cut you off from His salvation. Their contention is that nothing you do can break your relationship with God. Their contention is that “if you believe” you are saved. It is salvation by faith alone.

Sorry, but scripture says otherwise.

 

[Pax]

Please interpret the verse…Jesus wept. OPEN YOUR EYES. You are rebelling against clear truth.

If you think you’ve proven anything by this verse then you’ve got loads of work to do.

 

[Pax]

On the contrary…it says - if you have become IN CHRIST…you will persevere. If you say any other thing - you are twisting scripture.

It is like saying - you will persevere if you have become a partaker of Christ. The key words here are HAVE BECOME.

Perfected, justified, forgiven, sanctified (and being sanctified)…Linkowski

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Read the passage over again. It does not say what you are claiming at all.

 

[HailMary]

If you think you’ve proven anything by this verse then you’ve got loads of work to do.

Thank you! Well put.

 

[porthos11]

And you will not accept scriptures such as Hebrews 3:14…

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

I’ve been reading this poster’s thread and I still don’t get it.

First of all, he quotes this verse (which supports the Catholic view, by the way) but disregards the obvious subjunctive here. That would be the word “if”. IF means conditional in both English and Greek. Nowhere does this verse support the assertion that perseverance is “evidence” of justification, in other words, there is no support here for a causal relationship between justification and perseverance.

The poster’s idea that perseverance is “evidence” floated out of nowhere.

Can you back this up linguistically?

 

[Linkowski]

I’ve been reading this poster’s thread and I still don’t get it.

First of all, he quotes this verse (which supports the Catholic view, by the way) but disregards the obvious subjunctive here. That would be the word “if”. IF means conditional in both English and Greek. Nowhere does this verse support the assertion that perseverance is “evidence” of justification, in other words, there is no support here for a causal relationship between justification and perseverance.

The poster’s idea that perseverance is “evidence” floated out of nowhere.

Can you back this up linguistically?

You have become smart - IF you pass this test. Was passing the test the evidence of becoming smart…YES. Was it the means of becoming smart? No! This is the language of Hebrews 3:14…

Now…I will give my illustration that marries God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility…

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined the saving of life of all on the ship to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, ***which God prepared beforehand ***so that we would walk in them.

You cannot deny this…So, marrying our sets of scriptures together, it seems that we come to a point where we have to admit, the doctrine of election is the result. It is God choosing a people unto himself before the foundation of the world. Did He have to save anyone?? No, he could have let us all go. Did Jesus have to come. No He did not. But, God so loved the world…

 

[deb1]

If people read it, I think a lot of the misconceptions about OSAS would vanish. OSAS is vulnerable ***if ***it is based on human merit, or is thought to be - once one realises that it has no other foundation than the Grace of God, Who elects as & whom He sees fit purely because it it is His own gracious purpose so to do, the more absurd
objections vanish like the morning mist…

I can only speak for how I was taught OSAS in a Baptist Church. My pastor stressed repeatedly that we were saved by grace not by our own works.

I thought that OSAS originated in Calvinism, so I can’t imagine that a denomination believing in OSAS would teach that you are saved by your own works.

 

[deb1]

I think that I might be the only person annoyed by this, so feel free to ignore me.

The OP posted some verses that she felt contradicted OSAS.

I happen to know that there are intelligent posters here on both sides of the issue. Yet no one is taking the original verses and discussing them.

Wouldn’t it make better sense to go verse by verse through the first post and explain why these do not contradict OSAS?

Not doing so makes it appear that the Catholics here will respond to the verses that are given to them but the OSAS supporters won’t do the same.

 

[Linkowski]

OSAS and election…focusing on God’s foreknowledge

Please explain this…

Ro 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Has nothing to do with anything foreseen - good works or a free will choice…CLEAR

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Had nothing to do with forseen works - again - one was chosen over the other - HENCE THE FOLLOWING SCRIPTURE

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

This is your objection to this doctrine…you think it is not fair. GOD DECEIDES WHAT’S FAIR.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This has clear meaning.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Again - this scripture is for those who oppose this notion of election…

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also

Other explanations are a gross twisting of this passage and the myriad of other passages that support this.

Just to add a further qualification…why the phrase saying - IS THERE UNRUIGHTEOUSNESS WITH GOD?? Certainly fallen man would not have a problem with your doctrine - that God forsees the human making the free will choice. But, Paul must add this question because he is writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit who knows fallen man has a problem with this teaching!

Foreknowledge means to forelove…the Bible says that Jesus was crucufied by the foreknowledge of God the Father. Does that simply mean that God saw that it was going to happen and then PLANNED IT THAT WAY. Certainly not! It was forethought and planned in accordance with His call and His plan…NOT OURS!! Hence…

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I hope you can see this.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The understandings based on scripture of predestination and election are where the problems reside. Catholic teaching supports both, but it in no way accepts OSAS. No one that I know of that accepts OSAS believes that OSAS is based on human merit. That is not what makes the teaching vulnerable.

That in some form is the objection I keep coming across - OSAS is presented as necessarily implying a belief on the part of the elect in their own excellence, as a result of which they neglect their obedience to God in favour of idleness & presumption; when these things are wholly opposed to assurance. I came across this very idea about an hour ago . That, is what I mean.​

The vulnerability in the teaching is tied up in free will as well as a lack of appreciation for the transformative power of God’s grace. OSAS makes the transformative power of God’s grace and free will unimportant.

I dont see that it affects the issue of transformation by grace - I think that Calvinistic monergism is a support to free will. A good deal depends on what exactly one means by FW, of course. The Catholic notion of FW is too vulnerable to the reproach either​

• of Galatianism
• of Synergism (understood as the operation of God’s Will & ours in parallel
• or else as their “intra-operation”)
• or of semi-Pelagianism
  God’s purpose for the predestined is to “conform them to the image of his Son,”[see Rom 8:29] OSAS believers see no necessity in this and believe that no matter what you do after being initially justified you are forever saved. ## No Calvinist I’ve read would deny that is God’s purpose. The second part of the remark is (from a Calvinist perspective) true in one sense, false in another. It is false if seen as an excuse for sinful living, but true as a reassurance that even our sins cannot separate us from God. They do at least take Romans 8.32-39 seriously - Catholics are apt to give the imopression that God is so weak a Saviour that a lot of things can & will & must “separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ” - despite St.Paul. ##

Moreover, the teaching denies a person’s ability to turn from God by an act of free will which will cut you off from His salvation. Their contention is that nothing you do can break your relationship with God. Their contention is that “if you believe” you are saved. It is salvation by faith alone.

In some sense, salvation is by faith alone - Catholics & Calvinists uses the word in different senses, so they disagree; unsurprisingly. And by “believing”, I don’t mean carnal security without obedience. I recommend Brooks.​

There are lot of issues here, on both sides, & it’s impossible to look at them fairly in two sentences. All I can say is that I’m very impressed with the Biblical basis for their case. That sounds like an evasion, but it’s better to seem evasive than to make a dog’s dinner of the issures involved

Sorry, but scripture says otherwise.

That depends on what we think it is saying about what, in what connection.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I can only speak for how I was taught OSAS in a Baptist Church. My pastor stressed repeatedly that we were saved by grace not by our own works.

I thought that OSAS originated in Calvinism, so I can’t imagine that a denomination believing in OSAS would teach that you are saved by your own works.

See post 34 for clarification.​

It wasn’t the happiest choice of words - see 34 anyway; that *should *explain

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Pax

I would love to see your sixty verses.

It would save me a great deal of work and time, thanks!

It would make it easy if they are typed.

Thanks!

 

[HailMary]

I think that I might be the only person annoyed by this, so feel free to ignore me.

The OP posted some verses that she felt contradicted OSAS.

I happen to know that there are intelligent posters here on both sides of the issue. Yet no one is taking the original verses and discussing them.

Wouldn’t it make better sense to go verse by verse through the first post and explain why these do not contradict OSAS?

Not doing so makes it appear that the Catholics here will respond to the verses that are given to them but the OSAS supporters won’t do the same.

Thank you! I’m a guy btw.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

My motto is: I am smart enough to know that I am dumb.

With that said: Is there a passage in the Holy Bible that states: “Once saved always saved”?

I want to thank you for your time, thank you!

HailMary you now have 777 posts, that has to be good for something.

 

[Linkowski]

:banghead:

 

[porthos11]

You have become smart - IF you pass this test. Was passing the test the evidence of becoming smart…YES. Was it the means of becoming smart? No! This is the language of Hebrews 3:14…

First of all, your example English statement would never pass the careful eye of any decent editor, because of its logical problems. Smartness is dependent on study, not exams, so this English statement wouldn’t even carry much weight even in English. Your English statement will have to be properly reworded: “Your passing the test MEANS you are smart.”

Moreover, that’s not the language of Hebrews 3:14 contrary to your assertion. Hebrews 3:14 is a 3rd class conditional statement, which is the equivalent of an if…then clause in English. It uses the conjunction “eanper”; if, if only, when. Moreover, the verb “hold fast”, kataschomen, is in the subjunctive. This makes the second clause the protasis (the if clause), and the first the apodosis In a third-class conditional, the apodosis is a future event dependent on the accomplishment of the protasis.

If it said what you assert, then it should be a first class conditional, and the verb katechw in the protasis should be indicative (assumes an existing reality).

Now…I will give my illustration that marries God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility…

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, ***which God prepared beforehand ***so that we would walk in them.

You cannot deny this…So, marrying our sets of scriptures together, it seems that we come to a point where we have to admit, the doctrine of election is the result. It is God choosing a people unto himself before the foundation of the world. Did He have to save anyone?? No, he could have let us all go. Did Jesus have to come. No He did not. But, God so loved the world…

On first glance, I see no area where these verses contradict Catholic teaching. We believe God predestines all to be saved, but there are those who will fully reject his salvation.

We do not, however believe that God created some men for them to go to hell. He knows in advance, but does not hinder their free will to choose him or damnation.