OSAS disturbed once and for all

[mikeledes]

OSAS and election…focusing on God’s foreknowledge
Again - this scripture is for those who oppose this notion of election…

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also

Other explanations are a gross twisting of this passage and the myriad of other passages that support this.

Just to add a further qualification…why the phrase saying - IS THERE UNRUIGHTEOUSNESS WITH GOD?? Certainly fallen man would not have a problem with your doctrine - that God forsees the human making the free will choice. But, Paul must add this question because he is writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit who knows fallen man has a problem with this teaching!

Foreknowledge means to forelove…the Bible says that Jesus was crucufied by the foreknowledge of God the Father. Does that simply mean that God saw that it was going to happen and then PLANNED IT THAT WAY. Certainly not! It was forethought and planned in accordance with His call and His plan…NOT OURS!! Hence…

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I hope you can see this

And yet God desires the salvation of all.

1 Timothy 2:4

**4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. **

Ezekiel 18:23

23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

If no one can repent without God’s initative, then how can he desire the repentance of the wicked without offering them the means to repent? If He created the reprobrate specifically for eternal damnation, then how can He say he desires their salvation and that they repent?

Titus 2:11

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

If God desires the salvation of all, then only if a person’s choice is factored in can we understand why some are not saved without making God directly responsible for sin and evil.

Luke 13:34

**34"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! **

There are those whom God has ordained that they will die in a state of grace (the elect) and there are those whom God has ordained that they will not (the reprobate). In both cases, God incorporates man’s free will. This does not necessarily mean that election is based on man’s choice, but that God’s election incoprates man’s choice.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[HailMary]

maybe any OSAS followers can answer some of my initial questions like

If OSAS were true, what is the point of God’s judgment after you die?

 

[mikeledes]

Linkowski, here is a link on predestination from a Catholic viewpoint:

iustificare.blogspot.com/2006/09/garrigou-lagrange-on-predestination.html

**SUMMARY OF CATHOLIC TEACHING **

1. God knows all things, including those who will be saved (THE ELECT). 2. God’s foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will. 3. God desires all men to be saved. 4. Jesus died to redeem all men. 5. God provides sufficient grace for all men to be saved. 6. Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace. 7. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again. 8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin. 9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace. 10. Those who do persevere are God’s elect. 11. Those who do not persevere, or who never accepted grace, are the reprobate. 12. Since we can always reject God in this life, we have no absolute assurance that we will persevere. 13. We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God’s commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13).

This is from:

bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm

Also read:

cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=147

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

I agree completely.

But I bet if you really pushed your friends, at least some of them would argue that a person was never really saved to begin with if they acted in a manner contrary to Christian morality Maybe not, but I know everytime I push the point with any of my OSAS friends, that is the conclusion they always come to. Sometimes, it seems as if they have never really even thought through the question at all, which always strikes me as odd.

But it also reinforces my view that really, for people who are critical thinkers, they gravitate towards Catholicism, or the Sacramental Protestant denominations.

It seems as if many people in the fundamental arena believe that to walk by faith, we must cast aside all reason and critical thinking because that is what faith demands.

God Bless,
Maria

You are correct…that has been my experience. Usually I have to give an exteme example such as a “believer” going through life like any other Christian, and then suddenly he robs a bank, kills some people, and runs off with some show girl while leaving his wife in the lurch. In this case they will usually say the person was never saved to begin with.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

maybe any OSAS followers can answer some of my initial questions like

If OSAS were true, what is the point of God’s judgment after you die?

I love your question.

I am a Roman Catholic, but I have a blood brother who believes once saved always saved.

I will ring him up and ask him the question. I hope to do this within a week or so.

thanks

 

[HailMary]

I love your question.

Originally Posted by **HailMary **

anyone?

 

[mikeledes]

Ezekiel 3:20-21

**20Again, When a righteous man **doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Can a righteous person turn away from righteosness?

1 Kings 11:1-10

**1But king Solomon **loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:
2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
** 9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD **God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

Paul warns the people in the ship not to leave the ship or they will not be saved. However, in the ship analogy you love to use, Linkowski/OneforTruth, the men never leave the ship. This is not the case among all of the righteous. Despite the fact that the righteous are warned not to commit idolatry, adultery, etc. because those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, many still commit these sins. They have been warned and still do what they are not supposed to do, unlike the men in the ship. That is why you are comparing apples with oranges when you use the ship analogy to defend OSAS and perseverance of the saints.

God Bless,
Michael

These verses still stand against thr notion that all of the justified will persevere.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

maybe any OSAS followers can answer some of my initial questions like

If OSAS were true, what is the point of God’s judgment after you die?

takers?

 

[JustaServant]

OSAS - Once Saved, Always Saved affirms that the moment a person places their faith in Jesus Christ as their “personal Lord and Savior” (or some variant of this phrase), and believes He is the Son of God, their salvation is guaranteed, and nothing they do or say can change this reality.
Here are some objections that are note worthy:
Protestants misunderstand Salvation as a "instance in time"
salvation is a 3-dimensional reality with past, present, and future componets:
PAST:
Titus 3:5
Eph. 2:5-8
PRESENT:
1 Cor. 1:8
2 Cor. 2:15
FUTURE:
Rom. 5:9-10
1 Cor. 3:12-15
If OSAS were true, what is the point of God’s judgment after you die?
OSAS is at odds with what St. Paul teaches since the Saint says,
Romans 13:11
First believed in what? This is SAINT PAUL telling you that his “initial belief” has made his salvation “closer”; not that it has been sealed for eternity.
And lastly, OSAS is anti-biblical since you KNOW heaven is “yours” after you have been “saved”
Romans 8:24

Understanding this was a major factor in my return to the Church. “Salvation as crisis”, or instance in time" was never part of Church teaching untill the last 300 years (even early Protestants understood this).