OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

[steve_b]

H steve,

I think it is much more an abundant living drive that Paul had in Christ, beyond “getting to heaven”.

Yet one can’t ignore the consequence Paul points to who doesn’t subdue their body. Galatians 5:19-21 The consequence he gives to behavior by people who don’t control their flesh, but instead let the flesh control them.

They don’t inherit heaven. As in they go to hell. Those by definition that send one to hell if they die in them, are mortal sins
b:

As I said, it is about pleasing God, now, for we are in eternity *now.

True
*
b:

“Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus…Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it…” Phil 3:12,13

Nor does he presume he will, without persevering till the end.
b:

If it was just heaven , or the resurrection, of course he has not attained it yet, if that is what he meant.

When he puts the consequence for bad behavior he lists, as not inheriting the kingdom of God, then we know what is the prize he’s focused on.
b:

Why would he mean that, when it is so obvious that he is still alive , on this earth ?

It’s always about the prize. Think about it from Jesus disclosure about those who make it to heaven. Only a few make it. In Context ] link is operational

Why?
b:

I think he wants to do the works that have been prepared for him since the foundation of the world.

True

So should every human being have the same focus

Since only a few make it to heaven, that suggests to me, there is

• no fear of God by them, therefore no obedience to what He wants
• they forgot that love of God comes first and foremost.
• they die disconnected from God

b:

He does not want to be like Moses, and be disqualified from entering into the promised land (though he was still “saved”), because he did not control his flesh/body.

It’s not the same. With Paul, Jesus already did His work. Heaven was open but so was hell.

In Moses day, hell was open, but heaven was not open.
b:

As to the resurrection, this is also the day the books are opened up, and we will be rewarded according to our faith/works.
It definitely can diminish your use of faith or harm your ministry. No one denies that ministers must be even more vigilant.it is just not that continual sin can lead to the ultimate sin.

Mortal sin is a cinch to commit. Look at the list of sins Paul gave as an example. Are they hard or impossible to commit? Nope! They’re easy. If one dies in any of those sins they go to hell. I.E. They do not inherit heaven. Not my words but Paul’s.

BTW,

(all links operational)

Just to pick one of those sins Paul mentions in that list from Galatians 5:19-21, is dissension διχοστασίαι, ]

Dissension, διχοστασίαι, [same Greek word for “dissensions” in Rm 16 Romans 16:16-18 RSVCE - Greet one another with a holy kiss. All - Bible Gateway”]In Context ] zeros in on people who divide or have divided from the only Church Jesus established and the apostles are building, and they are remaining divided from this Church. And what Church is that? The kataholos ekklesia,[Acts 9:31] the Catholic Church, #[27 (https://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14630143&postcount=27)** ]

**

 

[fhansen]

yes , but the "core doctrines " were all first apprehended then “privately”, as the Peter example (which is not far fetched for it is Peter and the apostles that gave us the “core”).
Blessings
PS. and we continue to apprehend the “core” by same method of inner revelation…it is the fundamental “value” on which the church is founded.

It’s not either/or, but both/and. We need the structure, received, supported, protected, and proclaimed by the church, in order to have the right foundation for the faith. That structure was revealed in the teachings and deeds of Jesus, and, yes, witnessed to by the Holy Spirit in those who heard and believed. That same Spirit has continued to guide the Church as a whole down through the centuries when questions and controversies have arisen, and continues to witness in the individual members as we come to align ourselves with those truths. But the Church, having been established for this very purpose, will always be correct in her positions, while individuals, claiming to be spirit-led, often come up with all kinds of varying and contradictory notions.

In any case the type of private revelation that the Church speaks of here is not a necessary part of being a Christian. It is rare, and given by God for His purposes. Putting aside the absolute profundity of these experiences, when God determines to infuse specific knowledge into a person the communication is practical, in the sense that He can give exact word by word transmission of thoughts, no different than what I’m doing now, as an example. IOW, He can directly tell a person that they have eternal life, while leaving no doubt as to the source of the communication.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13
It’s often overused by those who wish to insist that we can have certainty of our salvation, rather than striking a balance on this matter after considering all of Scripture in its whole context. Do you really think that no literary licence could’ve been employed there by John-in order to state some general principle? Would you insist that every ear that would’ve heard John’s letter was necessarily attached to a person whose eternal destiny was heaven?

“I write these things to you…” What did St. John write? He wrote the 4 previous chapters that have 21 IF’s in them.

 

[benhur]

It’s not either/or, but both/and. We need the structure, received, supported, protected, and proclaimed by the church, in order to have the right foundation for the faith. That structure was revealed in the teachings and deeds of Jesus, and, yes, witnessed to by the Holy Spirit in those who heard and believed. That same Spirit has continued to guide the Church as a whole down through the centuries when questions and controversies have arisen, and continues to witness in the individual members as we come to align ourselves with those truths. But the Church, having been established for this very purpose, will always be correct in her positions, while individuals, claiming to be spirit-led, often come up with all kinds of varying and contradictory notions.

In any case the type of private revelation that the Church speaks of here is not a necessary part of being a Christian. It is rare, and given by God for His purposes. Putting aside the absolute profundity of these experiences, when God determines to infuse specific knowledge into a person the communication is practical, in the sense that He can give exact word by word transmission of thoughts, no different than what I’m doing now, as an example. IOW, He can directly tell a person that they have eternal life, while leaving no doubt as to the source of the communication.

Hi fh,

As to revelation, I think we have covered the bases. I was again referencing the personal revelation that is necessary for right belief, as evidenced by Peter. It is not “either or” but both, as you say, for Peter indeed have to weigh all the structured (name removed by moderator)ut that you might refer to ( Jewish magisterium’s, rabbis, teachers, writ, parents, tradition etc.) with the help of final arbiter, the heavenly Father. It is no different today, save that the magisterium has shifted from Jewish to its offshoot, “Christian”, and presbyters for rabbis.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

“I write these things to you…” What did St. John write? He wrote the 4 previous chapters that have 21 IF’s in them.

Hi DK,

Yet it then seems that the Spirit in us can confirm that those "if’s " have been met in us…hence the conclusion “that you may know”.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Yet one can’t ignore the consequence Paul points to who doesn’t subdue their body. Galatians 5:19-21

The consequence he gives to behavior by people who don’t control their flesh, but instead let the flesh control them. Hi steve,

Hopefully we can come to a consensus that besides sin leading to hell (setting aside that it may happen or not happen to a mature, deep soiled Christian), but that sin can also diminish our rewards in heaven. It is both.

When he puts the consequence for bad behavior he lists, as not inheriting the kingdom of God, then we know what is the prize he’s focused on.

 

[steve_b]

Hi steve,

Hopefully we can come to a consensus that besides sin leading to hell (setting aside that it may happen or not happen to a mature, deep soiled Christian), but that sin can also diminish our rewards in heaven. It is both.

benhur,

Mortal sin is a cinch to commit for ANYONE.
If one dies in that sin, ANYONE, then they don’t go to heaven. I.e. it’s hell for them. That’s scripture.

And apparently, Jesus is telling us in advance, most people die in mortal sin, because only a few make it to heaven.
b:

Again, he uses prize in both contexts, in various scripture, not just “resurrection”, or eternal life, but also in attaining prize for our work, which will not be revealed upon death, but later , at the judgment seat of Christ , when the books are opened.

The prize is heaven. Humans by virtue of our soul are already immortal. Therefore, when we die, it’s either heaven or hell for all eternity .
b:

.The prize is not static, or one leveled.it is not just “heaven or hell”. Yes , and only one (or twelve) will sit at Hs right hand, and only some at their right hands etc etc. l
Well yes, but first every human being should be born again, become ahristian, all are called to this. But most fail , not in the Christian walk , but in heeding the initial call, of being born of God

The prize is heaven. That’s the whole point of the NT, getting to heaven

Born again in scripture refers to baptism. It’s the beginning of supernatural life in grace. Not a be all to end all mind you. It needs completion, remaining in that state of sanctifying grace till the end of life.
b:

This has nothing to do with dispensations

dispensations?
b:

and the history of paradise /heaven and hell /gehenna, and when the doors to heaven were open.
I has to do with “finishing the race (of works) that is set before us”.For Moses it was to lead the the “chosen” into the promised land, and Moses himself
failed to enter where others he had led did. Paul did not want to lose the rewards of his apostleship.

Blessings

benhur,

Where was Paul worried about losing his apostleship? Exact reference please.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Very few elect are born “elect”(John the baptist?). They must be born again.

Your question is like asking if some people are destined to jump off the cliff and others not, what is the use of the cliff ?

Blessings

You mean the purpose of religion is to cause the reprobate to go to hell?

 

[Debbie_Kono]

Thank you all for this back and forth. As a convert since 2015 I really learned a lot…especially from Ben and FH. Couple of questions:

To Ben (or any Protestant) Do you believe that divorce and remarriage = adultery?
Contraception = sin? And if not, why not?

To FH (or any Catholic…except LR {sorry}). I know that the Church teaches for sin to be mortal it must be grave matter, committed with full knowledge, and deliberate/full consent. Would non-Catholics, because they don’t believe it sinful than be excused from the sin of adultery if they divorced and remarried? Contracept?

I ask because as a convert who has all Protestant friends, after reading Humanae Vitae and just loving the beauty of the truth, I was going on and on about it to my best friend (fallen away, unlearned Catholic, now practicing Evangelical), when she stopped me and told me she had had her tubes tied. Would she now be culpable? She also has received Eucharist (at her Catholic marriage 34 years ago) with a couple of unconfessed mortal sins. I love her dearly, but feel sort of bad that I let her know about contraception being sin.

Thanks

 

[benhur]

You mean the purpose of religion is to cause the reprobate to go to hell?

Hi m,

Well, religion per our discussion is to inform humanity that there destiny is hell already, for sin has separated them from God, and that reconciliation is possible thru Christ and His new birth.

Are we not lost before any religion ?

Religion only tells us about it, and the way to avoid reprobation in this life , but also in the next life.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Thank you all for this back and forth. As a convert since 2015 I really learned a lot…especially from Ben and FH. Couple of questions:

To Ben (or any Protestant) Do you believe that divorce and remarriage = adultery?
Contraception = sin? And if not, why not?

To FH (or any Catholic…except LR {sorry}). I know that the Church teaches for sin to be mortal it must be grave matter, committed with full knowledge, and deliberate/full consent. Would non-Catholics, because they don’t believe it sinful than be excused from the sin of adultery if they divorced and remarried? Contracept?

I ask because as a convert who has all Protestant friends, after reading Humanae Vitae and just loving the beauty of the truth, I was going on and on about it to my best friend (fallen away, unlearned Catholic, now practicing Evangelical), when she stopped me and told me she had had her tubes tied. Would she now be culpable? She also has received Eucharist (at her Catholic marriage 34 years ago) with a couple of unconfessed mortal sins. I love her dearly, but feel sort of bad that I let her know about contraception being sin.

Thanks

Hi DK,

Thank you for your kind words.

Some marriage is sin as is some divorce, and then some remarriage. So no , I am not a strict as CC, or at least would say that remarriage is not the unforgivable sin.

As to contraception, again not as strict as CC. I am willing to look at the pill as being not consistent with teaching that we all believe of life beginning at conception, that sometimes a fertilized egg, life, may be aborted with the pill. beyond that , the marriage bed is undefiled, and sex is a multi fold gift, not just for procreation. Don’t buy the "spilling on the ground " logic as sin for all other cases, and believe the church struggled early on with sex and even marriage as being "unspiritual’ or second class for a disciple of Christ. Some church fathers laid some bad groundwork, writing disparagingly about sex and marriage.

Blessings

 

[steve_b]

To FH (or any Catholic…except LR {sorry}). I know that the Church teaches for sin to be mortal it must be grave matter, committed with full knowledge, and deliberate/full consent. Would non-Catholics, because they don’t believe it sinful than be excused from the sin of adultery if they divorced and remarried? Contracept?

Re: the requirements for mortal sin

• grave matter
• knowledge
• full consent

Those aren’t meant to be some great mystery, or a lawyers playground for game playing with terms.

No one is excused from not knowing the moral law. That, God has written on everyone’s heart. As far as consent? All that is required is one made the act a choice. That’s it. They chose to commit the sin.

Even if Protestants for example don’t believe in"mortal sin", because in their bible translations the words “mortal sin” is not there, they can still look at 1 John 5:16 ]. Their translation still will make a distinction between sin that leads to death and sin that does not. What does that distinction mean? Doesn’t everyone die? Yes. So what does it mean some sin doesn’t lead to death while other sins do?

It’s talking about consequences to one’s soul. Some sins kill grace in the soul. Those sins if one dies in them, prevent one from inheriting heaven.

Do we have examples? Yes

look at the consequences. these are describing mortal sins

Titus 3:10-11 Reject a heretical (αἱρετικὸν )man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5:3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:23-27 missing Eucharist deliberately on Sunday, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12:16-17 immoraliy,(πόρνος ) is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ), factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers ( διχοστασίαι )don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 no sexually immoral (πόρνοι ), nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ( ἀρσενοκοῖται ), 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
• 2 Peter 2:4-22
• 2 Thes 1: 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
D:

I ask because as a convert who has all Protestant friends, after reading Humanae Vitae and just loving the beauty of the truth, I was going on and on about it to my best friend (fallen away, unlearned Catholic, now practicing Evangelical), when she stopped me and told me she had had her tubes tied. Would she now be culpable? She also has received Eucharist (at her Catholic marriage 34 years ago) with a couple of unconfessed mortal sins. I love her dearly, but feel sort of bad that I let her know about contraception being sin.

Thanks

Give her information she needs. That is what God expects of us. What a person we give information to, and does with that information, is their business. At least we give them the information.

As an aside, Re: one’s ignorance

this is not just for Catholics. It applies to every soul.

From the CCC
**1791 ** ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

When one thinks about it, today, information has never been in all history, so easy to access. Look how fast a person can get an answer to anything they’re asked? It’s at their fingertips. Therefore, that paragraph from the Catechism, has great application.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Very few elect are born “elect”(John the baptist?). They must be born again.

Blessings

So, a few, very few, are elect to begin with? And don’t have to be “born again”? The rest have to be born again and then this causes them to become elect?

Now, are all people potentially able to be born again and become elect, or are some people prevented from being born again to begin with, and so go to hell?

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi m,

Well, religion per our discussion is to inform humanity that there destiny is hell already, for sin has separated them from God, and that reconciliation is possible thru Christ and His new birth.

Are we not lost before any religion ?

Religion only tells us about it, and the way to avoid reprobation in this life , but also in the next life.

Blessings

Hmm…my understanding was that there was no way to avoid reprobation. That is, if one is destined to be reprobate there is nothing to stop them from going to hell, not even religion, and the elect are already elect, with or without religion, and going to heaven in any event.

No?

Uh, what is repbrobation in this life?

 

[Duane1966]

That is, if one is destined to be reprobate there is nothing to stop them from going to hell, not even religion, and the elect are already elect, with or without religion

You are correct. The terms refer to the final condition.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

Hi DK,

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

When one thinks about it, today, information has never been in all history, so easy to access. Look how fast a person can get an answer to anything they’re asked? It’s at their fingertips. Therefore, that paragraph from the Catechism, has great application.

Thanks for all you wrote Steve…helps a lot.

And I have been thinking the exact same thing…with all the information at our fingertips it’s only through negligence that a person cannot know. It is why I am so passionate about the contraception issue. This is very recent history and the results are so very overwhelmingly evident.

 

[fhansen]

Thank you all for this back and forth. As a convert since 2015 I really learned a lot…especially from Ben and FH. Couple of questions:

To Ben (or any Protestant) Do you believe that divorce and remarriage = adultery?
Contraception = sin? And if not, why not?

To FH (or any Catholic…except LR {sorry}). I know that the Church teaches for sin to be mortal it must be grave matter, committed with full knowledge, and deliberate/full consent. Would non-Catholics, because they don’t believe it sinful than be excused from the sin of adultery if they divorced and remarried? Contracept?

I ask because as a convert who has all Protestant friends, after reading Humanae Vitae and just loving the beauty of the truth, I was going on and on about it to my best friend (fallen away, unlearned Catholic, now practicing Evangelical), when she stopped me and told me she had had her tubes tied. Would she now be culpable? She also has received Eucharist (at her Catholic marriage 34 years ago) with a couple of unconfessed mortal sins. I love her dearly, but feel sort of bad that I let her know about contraception being sin.

Thanks

HI Debbie. Well, sin is sin regardless of our personal understanding or beliefs. But culpability is mitigated depending on our knowledge and deliberateness of consent. And not all sins are as easily discerned to be sin as, say, murder. Either way we can only judge based on the criteria we’ve been given but in the end, as Scripture says, ‘man judges by appearances while God judges by the heart’, which He, alone, knows. Meanwhile as others have said, just communicate the truth as you know it, in love

 

[steve_b]

HI Debbie. Well, sin is sin regardless of our personal understanding or beliefs. But culpability is mitigated depending on our knowledge and deliberateness of consent. And not all sins are as easily discerned to be sin as, say, murder. Either way we can only judge based on the criteria we’ve been given but in the end, as Scripture says, ‘man judges by appearances while God judges by the heart’, which He, alone, knows. Meanwhile as others have said, just communicate the truth as you know it, in love

Re: consent, and knowledge, just some references and a comment.

from the CCC (29 paragraphs)
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=choice&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

from that group of paragraphs, a few highlights

1033
We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1733
The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."

1859
Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860
Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

My Comments based on the CCC

Ignorance needs to be innocent. One’s fingerprints cant be all over their own ignorance. And one can’t pretend to be ignorant, or completely innocent in what they should know. IOW **

in extension,

1791 **ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case *when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

*That paragraph is huge, given how easy knowledge is so easily accessed today, at one’s fingertips.

 

[benhur]

So, a few, very few, are elect to begin with? And don’t have to be “born again”? The rest have to be born again and then this causes them to become elect?

Now, are all people potentially able to be born again and become elect, or are some people prevented from being born again to begin with, and so go to hell?

Hi m,

Well, I think folks would say elect has to do with God’s foreknowledge, and born again is an event in the salvation process.That is, foreknowledge has nothing to do with the actual nature of salvation, or even lack of it.

I wonder if all people are prevented from being born again, by their very nature, sin nature.The elect do not become born again because they have some better nature than non elect. Eternal life,election is the work of the Father, and we know he wishes that none should perish. If God has any “bent” towards any as being for or against, it is only thru eyes of foreknowledge.

Blessings