OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

[LatinRight]

God bless every readers of the CAF.

**THE PREDESTINATION OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT TO HEAVEN AND THE REPROBATES TO HELL. – *DE FIDE *Dogma.

PREDESTINATION OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT TO HEAVEN**

First theological fact: Their names stands written in the Book of Life from all eternity.

Second theological fact: They are predestined to heaven from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Heaven is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting life is in their bag from all eternity.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism in heaven.
Only God’s children/elect can have valid baptism, no one else!!!

PREDESTINATION OF THE REPROBATES TO HELL. With Catholic terminology: Decree The Divine Reprobation.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the elect to heaven is Decree The Divine Reprobation (negative predestination to hell) of the reprobates.

First theological fact: The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity. – As their names are NOT in the Book of Life, they can NEVER HAVE LIFE for multiple reasons!!!

Second theological fact: They are predestined to hell from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Hell is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting spiritual and physical death is in their bag from all eternity. – Everlasting spiritual and physical death is their past, present and future state.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism of the (spirit + soul) of the elect in heaven.

Reprobates CAN NEVER have valid baptism for many other reasons as well, their rejection of God and His grace, if a reprobate would have a valid baptism and would die one second after baptism, he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience, etc.!!!

God bless every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless every readers of the CAF.

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

PREDESTINATION OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT TO HEAVEN

First theological fact: Their names stands written in the Book of Life from all eternity.

Second theological fact: They are predestined to heaven from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Heaven is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting life is in their bag from all eternity.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism in heaven.
Only God’s children/elect can have valid baptism, no one else!!!

PREDESTINATION OF THE REPROBATES TO HELL. With Catholic terminology: Decree The Divine Reprobation.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the elect to heaven is Decree The Divine Reprobation (negative predestination to hell) of the reprobates.

First theological fact: The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity. – As their names are NOT in the Book of Life, they can NEVER HAVE LIFE for multiple reasons!!!

Second theological fact: They are predestined to hell from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Hell is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting spiritual and physical death is in their bag from all eternity. – Everlasting spiritual and physical death is their past, present and future state.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism of the (spirit + soul) of the elect in heaven.

Reprobates CAN NEVER have valid baptism for many other reasons as well, their rejection of God and His grace, if a reprobate would have a valid baptism and would die one second after baptism, he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience, etc.!!!

God bless every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[fhansen]

**God bless every readers of the CAF.

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE ***Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

PREDESTINATION OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT TO HEAVEN

First theological fact: Their names stands written in the Book of Life from all eternity.

Second theological fact: They are predestined to heaven from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Heaven is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting life is in their bag from all eternity.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism in heaven.
Only God’s children/elect can have valid baptism, no one else!!!

PREDESTINATION OF THE REPROBATES TO HELL. With Catholic terminology: Decree The Divine Reprobation.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the elect to heaven is Decree The Divine Reprobation (negative predestination to hell) of the reprobates.

First theological fact: The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity. – As their names are NOT in the Book of Life, they can NEVER HAVE LIFE for multiple reasons!!!

Second theological fact: They are predestined to hell from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Hell is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting spiritual and physical death is in their bag from all eternity. – Everlasting spiritual and physical death is their past, present and future state.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism of the (spirit + soul) of the elect in heaven.

Reprobates CAN NEVER have valid baptism for many other reasons as well, their rejection of God and His grace, if a reprobate would have a valid baptism and would die one second after baptism, he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience, etc.!!!

God bless every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

God bless LatinRight. As usual you have fact mixed with fiction here. The CC teaches specifically against the predestination of anyone to hell. That would involve a petty and mean and fickle little evil god indeed, if He were to actually, from the beginning, predestine some to eternal bliss and predestine the rest to eternal torment. He foreknows; He does not predetermine. Our wills are the last voice in saying “yes” or “no”; God uses our choices in His judgments. The doctrine regarding the predestination of the elect is a more or less moot point anyway, since we cannot know with certainty who they are.

 

[steido01]

I’ve seen this term used often in the Non-Catholic Religions forum and I’m curious as to how people define this.

…]

How do you and/or your denomination define/describe OSAS? Very curious here.

***Don or Jon or any other conservative Lutheran - feel free to add or take away.

Since you asked for my opinion specifically…

As Lutherans, we do not profess “Once-Saved, Always-Saved.” To the contrary, we acknowledge that even believers can, and do, chose to reject God’s gift of free-yet-not-cheap Grace.

It’s probably unfair for me to define that which I consider error, so I’ll leave it to our Calvinist/Reformed friends to answer.

Sidebar: I’m uncomfortable with using “conservative” to describe Lutheranism. That’s a political word. “Confessional” is a better descriptor.

 

[benhur]

if OSAS was plausible, wouldn’t it make sense Paul would be OSAS?

So why does he say the following about himself being disqualified (link operational) ἀδόκιμος ?

1 Corinthians 9:27

HI steve,

Many have said the disqualification is not hell fire here, but from loosing his prize , from his reward for services rendered, from fulfilling that which he was called to do…to finish that race, not heaven or hell.

Paul understood God’s will will be done by one person or another. He was chosen to do x number of things ,receiving an according reward. He did not want to do any less, that is, have somebody else do or finish his job.

Kathryn Kuhlman was told by God that she was not the first chosen/asked for “her” ministry , not even the second but the third. The previous two people did not “respond”/obey,take the step of faith, and lost such a reward for said ministry.

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

HI steve,

Many have said the disqualification is not hell fire here, but from loosing his prize , from his reward for services rendered, from fulfilling that which he was called to do…to finish that race, not heaven or hell.

Paul understood God’s will will be done by one person or another. He was chosen to do x number of things ,receiving an according reward. He did not want to do any less, that is, have somebody else do or finish his job.

Kathryn Kuhlman was told by God that she was not the first chosen/asked for “her” ministry , not even the second but the third. The previous two people did not “respond”/obey,take the step of faith, and lost such a reward for said ministry.

Blessings

So much for sola scriptura -not to mention false private revelations.

 

[steve_b]

HI steve,

Many have said the disqualification is not hell fire here, but from loosing his prize , from his reward for services rendered, from fulfilling that which he was called to do…to finish that race, not heaven or hell.

Paul understood God’s will will be done by one person or another. He was chosen to do x number of things ,receiving an according reward. He did not want to do any less, that is, have somebody else do or finish his job.

Kathryn Kuhlman was told by God that she was not the first chosen/asked for “her” ministry , not even the second but the third. The previous two people did not “respond”/obey,take the step of faith, and lost such a reward for said ministry.

Blessings

I gave #53 , the Greek word in that passage to show the context for “disqualify” . ἀδόκιμος open that up. What happens to the [castaway, rejected, reprobate] ?

English translations don’t always give us the best word in that case. A person as a result, can come to wrong conclusions about consequences.

1 Corinthians 9:27

 

[steve_b]

HI steve,

Many have said the disqualification is not hell fire here, but from loosing his prize , from his reward for services rendered, from fulfilling that which he was called to do…to finish that race, not heaven or hell.

Paul understood God’s will will be done by one person or another. He was chosen to do x number of things ,receiving an according reward. He did not want to do any less, that is, have somebody else do or finish his job.

Kathryn Kuhlman was told by God that she was not the first chosen/asked for “her” ministry , not even the second but the third. The previous two people did not “respond”/obey,take the step of faith, and lost such a reward for said ministry.

Blessings

:tiphat: howdy benhur,

In #53 , I gave the Greek word in that passage for “disqualify”, to show that “disqualify” has an ominous conclusion

ἀδόκιμος open that up.

Ask yourself, what happens to the ἀδόκιμος castaway, rejected, reprobate] ?

1 Corinthians 9:27

 

[benhur]

So much for sola scriptura -not to mention false private revelations.

Hi fh,

Has the CC made an interpretation of this text, that is infallible, ex cathedra, or is it open for debate ? If not what is your “private” interpretation ?

Is there unanimous consent of the fathers on this text and its meaning ?

I think the text is quite clear.

Do not think Paul was worried about dying in mortal sin, out of grace., in this text.

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

Hi fh,

Has the CC made an interpretation of this text, that is infallible, ex cathedra, or is it open for debate ? If not what is your “private” interpretation ?

Is there unanimous consent of the fathers on this text and its meaning ?

I think the text is quite clear.

Do not think Paul was worried about dying in mortal sin, out of grace., in this text.

Blessings

The Church has no reason to give an interpretation of the specific passage. She simply holds that no one can have 100% certainty of salvation-and Scripture has already been offered in support of that anyway. The only, rare, exception is in the case of an authentic private revelation. But even there, as with all PRs, caution is always advised.

Having said that Paul knew Him in whom he believed, and he obviously knew he was on the right path. He had little to fear and *yet *perceived and acknowledged that one must strive and vigilant.

 

[benhur]

:tiphat: howdy benhur,

In #53 , I gave the Greek word in that passage for “disqualify”, to show that “disqualify” has an ominous conclusion

ἀδόκιμος open that up.

Ask yourself, what happens to the ἀδόκιμος castaway, rejected, reprobate] ?

1 Corinthians 9:27

Hi steve,

Thank you . I normally don’t endorse the NIV , but they have “disqualified form the prize”

What is the prize, even the race ?

So you run the race and finish, but only if you are* first *do you get the prize, not finishing second, or third etc.(isn’t then finishing second the same as being disqualified, at least as far as prize ?.)

I think there is a difference between doing everything to “win” heaven as your prize, and run, train, buffet, to not just gain heaven , but to please God in everything possible (him as an apostle to the gentiles). Do you think we all (that are predestined) equally obey and fulfill our destiny in Christ ? Do we not all receive rewards according to our works, besides entering heaven ? Is it wrong to strive, train, for the reward that is set before us specifically, each having our own "calling’’ ? All of us being a “priest” isn’t just a nicety.

Don’t know about you, but I am sure I will regret not obeying more , and missing opportunities of "ministry’ , to glorify God, work with Him, yet still being saved by grace. This is very sobering, as much as thinking of losing my salvation, which the humble heart ends up saying it is what they deserve .

I understand I am in a minority opinion on this, from all sides.

Besides

 

[steve_b]

Hi steve,

Thank you . I normally don’t endorse the NIV , but they have “disqualified form the prize”

benhur,

I gave
1 Corinthians 9:27 from the RSV-CE which also uses disqualify

So what does Paul mean by his statement?

Paul compares getting to heaven, to a race.

the prize, of running & finishing this race is Heaven
b:

So you run the race and finish, but only if you are first do you get the prize, not finishing second, or third etc…

I think there is a difference between doing everything to “win” heaven as your prize, and run , train, buffet , to not just gain heaven , but to please God in everything possible (him as an apostle to the gentiles). Do you think we all (that are predestined) equally obey and fulfill our destiny in Christ ?

I understand I am in a minority opinion on this, from all sides.

Besides

It’s important to disqualify erroneous conclusions…agreed? When looking at the Greek, it clarifies what Paul means.

ἀδόκιμος castaway, rejected, reprobate]

disqualify then doesn’t have to do with coming in first. It has to do with persevering till the end and actually finishing the race. As Paul said pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.]

Why does he say subdue his body AND lest after preaching he should be disqualified?

That tells me, he says

• avoid sin, (subdue his body) particularly avoid mortal sin, is huge
• and he also needs to make his actions match his teaching, lest he be disqualified from heaven in the end

IOW, he didn’t presume heaven was his regardless of his actions

 

[benhur]

benhur,

I gave
1 Corinthians 9:27 from the RSV-CE which also uses disqualify

So what does Paul mean by his statement?

Paul compares getting to heaven, to a race.

the prize, of running & finishing this race is Heaven

It’s important to disqualify erroneous conclusions…agreed? When looking at the Greek, it clarifies what Paul means.

ἀδόκιμος castaway, rejected, reprobate]

disqualify then doesn’t have to do with coming in first. It has to do with persevering till the end and actually finishing the race. As Paul said pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.]

Why does he say subdue his body AND lest after preaching he should be disqualified?

That tells me, he says

• avoid sin, (subdue his body) particularly avoid mortal sin, is huge
• and he also needs to make his actions match his teaching, lest he be disqualified from heaven in the end

IOW, he didn’t presume heaven was his regardless of his actions

Hi steve,

Does he say anywhere the race is for heaven ? He talks of running to win the prize (first place, to get the “crown”). He does not run aimlessly, to “finish”, but to be first.

One can finish the race, yet be disqualified of your prize…happens often even today… The intent is to be first and claim your prize, not just be a Christian in autopilot , towards heaven. You will finish, but you may not get the reward had you buffeted your flesh more. There is such a thing as a carnal Christian, but a heaven bound Christian nonetheless.

Blessings

PS- Ootherwise you might be saying that all those that died in the wilderness for forty years with Moses went to hell/gehenna (including Moses), instead that they merely lost the prize of the earthly promised land prize… Even Moses himself did not enter in. Did he lose his “salvation”, for he died in the wilderness, …this is what Paul writes about in ch 10, just after our text in question. …He did not want to be like Moses, who for a moment of carnality , lost out on the "prize’…very sobering !!!.

 

[benhur]

The Church has no reason to give an interpretation of the specific passage. She simply holds that no one can have 100% certainty of salvation-and Scripture has already been offered in support of that anyway. The only, rare, exception is in the case of an authentic private revelation. But even there, as with all PRs, caution is always advised.

Having said that Paul knew Him in whom he believed, and he obviously knew he was on the right path. He had little to fear and *yet *perceived and acknowledged that one must strive and vigilant.

Hi fh,

My friend , sometimes me thinks everything we are and believe as Christians has to go thru that Door that is “authentic, private revelation”.

Blessings

 

[steve_b]

Hi steve,

Does he say anywhere the race is for heaven ? He talks of running to win the prize (first place, to get the “crown”). He does not run aimlessly, to “finish”, but to be first.

Paul is all about getting to heaven

Why subdue his body?

Look how many times he talks about sins of the flesh. And what is the consequence if one does NOT subdue the flesh?

One example from Paul out of many:

Look at what Paul is talking about RE: subduing sins of the flesh Galatians 5:19-21

Do you see another point he’s making?

“I warn you as I’ve warned you before that those who do such things…” go to hell.

he teaches them, to subdue their flesh which they were NOT doing hence a repeated warning. And the consequences for not subduing the sins of the flesh? They don’t inherit the kingdom of heaven. The prize? Heaven. By definition, sins that send one to hell are mortal sins. Hell is for the reprobate. Remember the word I referred you to previously for disqualify?
For Paul, Heaven is the goal. THAT’S the prize. AND to avoid Hell
b:

One can finish the race, yet be disqualified of your prize…happens often even today… The intent is to be first and claim your prize, not just be a Christian in autopilot , towards heaven. You will finish, but you may not get the reward had you buffeted your flesh more. There is such a thing as a carnal Christian, but a heaven bound Christian nonetheless.

Blessings

What’s the whole idea of the NT? Salvation, Heaven, avoid Hell.
Gain the prize vs lose the prize
b:

PS- Ootherwise you might be saying that all those that died in the wilderness for forty years with Moses went to hell/gehenna (including Moses), instead that they merely lost the prize of the earthly promised land prize… Even Moses himself did not enter in. Did he lose his “salvation”, for he died in the wilderness, …this is what Paul writes about in ch 10, just after our text in question. …He did not want to be like Moses, who for a moment of carnality , lost out on the "prize’…very sobering !!!.

The OT was not the be all to end all. It was pointing to fulfillment in the NT, where the OT was dealing with types and shadows of what’s to come in the NT.

Heaven was closed for the OT people. Jesus was needed to open heaven.

 

[fhansen]

Hi fh,

My friend , sometimes me thinks everything we are and believe as Christians has to go thru that Door that is “authentic, private revelation”.

Blessings

My friend, if you don’t think that bogus, inauthentic private revelations abound, then you only need look towards half of the televangelists out there. Or attend a pentecostal church for a few years like I did. Either way, the RCC does not rely on private revelation for determining right doctrine, but rather on the public revelation that was once for all delivered with Christ’s advent.

 

[fhansen]

Hi steve,

Does he say anywhere the race is for heaven ? He talks of running to win the prize (first place, to get the “crown”). He does not run aimlessly, to “finish”, but to be first.

One can finish the race, yet be disqualified of your prize…happens often even today… The intent is to be first and claim your prize, not just be a Christian in autopilot , towards heaven. You will finish, but you may not get the reward had you buffeted your flesh more. There is such a thing as a carnal Christian, but a heaven bound Christian nonetheless.

Blessings

PS- Ootherwise you might be saying that all those that died in the wilderness for forty years with Moses went to hell/gehenna (including Moses), instead that they merely lost the prize of the earthly promised land prize… Even Moses himself did not enter in. Did he lose his “salvation”, for he died in the wilderness, …this is what Paul writes about in ch 10, just after our text in question. …He did not want to be like Moses, who for a moment of carnality , lost out on the "prize’…very sobering !!!.

Here’s another passage where Paul mentions the prize- identified as the resurrection from the dead, i.e. eternal life:

**I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.** Phil 3

 

[fhansen]

Hi fh,

My friend , sometimes me thinks everything we are and believe as Christians has to go thru that Door that is “authentic, private revelation”.

Blessings

benhur, if by this you mean the urgings and promptings and understanding and inspirations and conviction and grace in general given by the Holy Spirit then, yes, we’re all blest by these in one form or another. Faith itself, as a gift, is an instance of a “private revelation” in that sense, especially when faith is considered as knowledge and a dim foretaste of the things to come, the vision or immediate knowledge of God.

But when the Church uses the term “private revelation” she’s speaking of an incomparably profound, direct communication of God to man, with specific information given, via such means as locutions, visions, etc…

 

[James248]

Since you asked for my opinion specifically…

As Lutherans, we do not profess “Once-Saved, Always-Saved.” **To the contrary, we acknowledge that even believers can, and do, chose to reject God’s gift of free-yet-not-cheap Grace.
**
It’s probably unfair for me to define that which I consider error, so I’ll leave it to our Calvinist/Reformed friends to answer.

Sidebar: I’m uncomfortable with using “conservative” to describe Lutheranism. That’s a political word. “Confessional” is a better descriptor.

Bonhoeffer?

 

[Duane1966]

great saints and scholars have debated this endlessly… so I kind of believe in both sides …lol

Hi Ben,

Please name me one saint canonized by the Catholic Church that espoused the doctrine of OSAS.