OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

[benhur]

Hmm…my understanding was that there was no way to avoid reprobation. That is, if one is destined to be reprobate there is nothing to stop them from going to hell, not even religion, and the elect are already elect, with or without religion, and going to heaven in any event.

No?

Uh, what is repbrobation in this life?

Him,

I can only state again that one must be born again, and that faith comes by hearing, and that by the word of God, having the general sense of religion (Adam and Eve’s words of promise/judaism/Christianity).Elect must have religion to hear about rebirth, reconcilliation , of spirit.

I believe we are all born reprobate, that the flesh is at emnity with God, by the nature of things. Man is blind to the heavenly nature, reprobate, if left to himself. The best a man can hope for is that he sees that he is reprobate, before any rebirth, and even that is by grace of God.

Blessings

 

[steve_b]

Hi m,

Well, I think folks would say elect has to do with God’s foreknowledge,

true
b:

and born again is an event in the salvation process.

true.

Jn 3: 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew,**(“John 3 RSVCE - Nicodemus Visits Jesus - Now there was - Bible Gateway”)] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicode′mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God

Being born “anew” / “from above”, (water and spirit) describes valid baptism. An event in time that keeps going without stopping
b:

That is, foreknowledge has nothing to do with the actual nature of salvation, or even lack of it.

Since God knows everything in advance, He knew from the foundation of the world, who would be saved and who wouldn’t, because He knew every choice a person would make before they were even born. So His knowledge, does have to do with the nature of salvation
b:

I wonder if all people are prevented from being born again, by their very nature, sin nature.

Apparently most are in that spot, since Jesus told us in advance, only a few find THE NARROW GATE
b:

The elect do not become born again because they have some better nature than non elect.

Re: the elect Catholics would respond
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=elect&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
b:

Eternal life,election is the work of the Father, and we know he wishes that none should perish. If God has any “bent” towards any as being for or against, it is only thru eyes of foreknowledge.

Blessings

true.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Him,

I can only state again that one must be born again, and that faith comes by hearing, and that by the word of God, having the general sense of religion (Adam and Eve’s words of promise/judaism/Christianity).Elect must have religion to hear about rebirth, reconcilliation , of spirit.

I believe we are all born reprobate, that the flesh is at emnity with God, by the nature of things. Man is blind to the heavenly nature, reprobate, if left to himself. The best a man can hope for is that he sees that he is reprobate, before any rebirth, and even that is by grace of God.

Blessings

No direct answers to direct questions. However, I’ll keep trying…

So that is the purpose of religion, to enable the elect can hear about the rebirth? And God ensures that those individuals of the elect do hear about religion and the rebirth?

Which means in turn, that there are none of the elect that do not hear the word, the lack of which would prevent them from gaining faith?

Well, I guess it is obvious that those who never hear the word are all of the reprobate to begin with! God must have made sure that missionaries only went to those geographic regions that contained populations of the elect in them.

I agree, we are all born reprobate, if by that we mean born with original sin. And that is something we cannot cleanse ourselves of. Only God can do that.

Do you agree then, that we are in our sins, reprobate, but we hear the Word of God, gain faith, realize we are in our sins, and therefore turn from them? And that, however, even after we have turned from our sins, and have repented, we still have our sins on us, hence our sins need to be washed away, removed?

Fortunately, Jesus died for our sins and God consequently has designated a special means, a special appeal or prayer to do that, to make us born again, from above, to have a clear conscience, a means which is visible to ourselves and to all, called baptism.

Because Peter says that baptism now saves us, as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism is itself the request, the appeal to God that He save us and remove our sins, and make us a new creation and a child of God.

 

[benhur]

So that is the purpose of religion, to enable the elect can hear about the rebirth? And God ensures that those individuals of the elect do hear about religion and the rebirth?

Hi m,

Well I believe the Word going out (religion) glorifies God thru the effectual power as shown thru the elect, and even thru the rejection of it by the non elect. That is, His love and justice and fair play can be shown, that the non elect indeed will be judged for rejecting something, even His reconciling Word ( shadowed in nature and man’s conscience also). What justice would there be for a speeding ticket if no speed signs were posted ?

Well, I guess it is obvious that those who never hear the word are all of the reprobate to begin with! God must have made sure that missionaries only went to those geographic regions that contained populations of the elect in them.

I think St. Paul gives a better account of the history of man being “reprobate” in one of his epistles/letters…can’t recall specifics …perhaps you recall

Do you agree then, that we are in our sins, reprobate, but we hear the Word of God, gain faith, realize we are in our sins, and therefore turn from them? And that, however, even after we have turned from our sins, and have repented, we still have our sins on us, hence our sins need to be washed away, removed

Can the old nature turn from its sin? Does it not take a new nature to even see righteousness,? Can the old nature believe unto salvation, even profess the name of Jesus as Savior ?

Isn’t our biggest sin unbelief, and only by believing have we truly repented. Only the new nature can believe effectually.

Fortunately, Jesus died for our sins and God consequently has designated a special means, a special appeal or prayer to do that, to make us born again, from above, to have a clear conscience, a means which is visible to ourselves and to all, called baptism.

You are mixing a lot of stuff here. Only a believer is to be baptized. Again, can someone who is not born again, born of the Spirit , truly savingly believe ?

Because Peter says that baptism now saves us, as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism is itself the request, the appeal to God that He save us and remove our sins, and make us a new creation and a child of God.

I would not say a new creation here. Certainly an appeal for clear conscience, for a sign that we have already been forgiven, that the Father *is *pleased with us. That is we once rejected baptism, now let us turn around and gladly do it. Gladly only because we have a new heart already,.before the water baptism. We have clear conscience for obeying this particular command.

If baptism is a “request” as you say, it is the request of a regenerated, glad heart.

Blessings

 

[drblank1]

That saying begs the question of how to define “IF saved.” How does one know IF they are saved by that definition.

Mary.

I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am saved. When the Holy Spirit comes to setup house in your body, it is unmistakable. You can know for yourself for sure.

Now, if you’re asking how do you know if someone else is saved, Jesus tells us we will know them by their fruits. And the Holy Spirit will guide us to evangelize where the evangelizing needs to happen.

But in the end, only God truly knows if another’s soul is Heaven bound.

 

[drblank1]

Jesus said (John 17:12):
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus explicitly says He lost one of those whom the Father has given Him, so your claim is unbiblical.

Catholic Dude

You are incorrect John 6:65 Jesus tells us that Judas was never a believer. “64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.”

In light of all the Gospels’ discourse on Judas, John 17:12 could be read more like, “I’ve guarded them, even the one who has never believed and will betray me.,” (my rewording)

 

[mackbrislawn]

benhur;14737224]Hi m,

Well I believe the Word going out (religion) glorifies God thru the effectual power as shown thru the elect, and even thru the rejection of it by the non elect. That is, His love and justice and fair play can be shown, that the non elect indeed will be judged for rejecting something, even His reconciling Word ( shadowed in nature and man’s conscience also). What justice would there be for a speeding ticket if no speed signs were posted ?

What I was really asking if there were any elect among the peoples in Africa and Asia and the Americas who did not hear or have scripture for centuries after the birth of Christianity. Were these people all of the reprobate or were some of the elect among them? Obviously the Word did not go out to them so God was not glorified and these people could not reject a Word they never heard. For them there were no speed signs so therefore there could be no speeding and hence no tickets.

I think St. Paul gives a better account of the history of man being “reprobate” in one of his epistles/letters…can’t recall specifics …perhaps you recall

Again, are all those who never heard a missionary of the “reprobate”? Did God plan it out beforehand to have missionaries over the centuries reach only those peoples whose populations already contained some of the elect?

Can the old nature turn from its sin? Does it not take a new nature to even see righteousness,? Can the old nature believe unto salvation, even profess the name of Jesus as Savior ?

I see we have different understandings of all this! I’ll explain the other, older, understanding.

Yes. Everybody is of the old nature until they have heard the Word, believed, repented, and are then regenerated by water and the Spirit. They at this time are born again, from above, and are a child of God. They are a new creation, buried in baptism, and arisen as a new creature.

Isn’t our biggest sin unbelief, and only by believing have we truly repented. Only the new nature can believe effectually.

How can those who have not heard the Word be accused of unbelief? How can those who have not heard the Word reject it?
We repent because we have believed. (Some of course, do not believe even after hearing the Word, they reject it, and therefore do not repent and are not saved.) And the stronger we believe, the stronger we repent. Then, because we have believed and have repented, we appeal for a clear conscience, to become a child of God, and to be saved, born of water and Spirit.

You are mixing a lot of stuff here. Only a believer is to be baptized. Again, can someone who is not born again, born of the Spirit , truly savingly believe ?

Nope, no mixing, it is all of one piece. I also didn’t say that unbelievers were to be baptized; that’s another matter. But yes, belief can come before being born again. It is because one believes that they then desire baptism, which now saves us, and makes us into a new creation, and born from above.

I would not say a new creation here. Certainly an appeal for clear conscience, for a sign that we have already been forgiven, that the Father *is *pleased with us. That is we once rejected baptism, now let us turn around and gladly do it. Gladly only because we have a new heart already,.before the water baptism. We have clear conscience for obeying this particular command.

Certainly *after *being born again we are a new creation: a creation of God. Baptism itself is an appeal, or prayer, for a clear conscience. (Appeal, prayer, and request are synonyms) We submit to the waters of baptism not so the water will wash away dirt from our bodies, which water does by its own power, but we submit to the water as an appeal that God will clear or clean our conscience. It is not so much a sign that we have already been forgiven, but the means by which we become forgiven.
So, we do not keep a clear conscience because have have obeyed this particular command, we get our sins forgiven and then have a clear conscience by means of this commandment.
Baptism is simply the visible means God has provided so that we know our sins are forgiven and we have a clear conscience. And how do we know this can be? Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If baptism is a “request” as you say, it is the request of a regenerated, glad heart.

Almost right. The heart can be glad first, glad because it can appeal or request that God regenerate it! The heart is happy that God has given us this means! Something that the whole community of God can witness. Afterwards, it is even more glad.

 

[drblank1]

Just a quick side note: the idea that there is no salvation outside the church usurps the Power of the Holy Spirit. God was wise in writing the Gospels that anyone could pickup the Bible and understand the Gospels. The Holy Spirit does not need the church to save. The church is a vital part of the Kingdom of God, but it is NOT the totality of the Kingdom.

A great example: the people on Pitcairn Island. They started with not one Christian. But with one Bible and the help of the Holy Spirit, created the idealistic Christian society. And this happened without the church.

 

[James248]

Just a quick side note: the idea that there is no salvation outside the church usurps the Power of the Holy Spirit. God was wise in writing the Gospels that anyone could pickup the Bible and understand the Gospels. The Holy Spirit does not need the church to save. The church is a vital part of the Kingdom of God, but it is NOT the totality of the Kingdom.

.

The Church is the Body of Christ. So if you reject the Church you reject Christ.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

God was wise in writing the Gospels that anyone could pickup the Bible and understand the Gospels. The Holy Spirit does not need the church to save.

Then explain 10’s of thousands of conflicting “denominations”. If anyone could pick up and understand…there should be unity, not division. At some point you have to ask yourself why the HS led pastor Bob to a conclusion that differs from pastor Tom’s. Truth cannot be divided. The only logical conclusion is either one is right and the other wrong, or both are wrong. But they both cannot be right because they contradict one another.

 

[drblank1]

The Church is the Body of Christ. So if you reject the Church you reject Christ.

Who is rejecting the church? All I said is the notion that there is no salvation outside of the church is a false.

 

[James248]

Who is rejecting the church? All I said is the notion that there is no salvation outside of the church is a false.

To reject the Church is to be outside the Church. To be outside the Church is to be outside Christ.

 

[drblank1]

Then explain 10’s of thousands of conflicting “denominations”. If anyone could pick up and understand…there should be unity, not division. At some point you have to ask yourself why the HS led pastor Bob to a conclusion that differs from pastor Tom’s. Truth cannot be divided. The only logical conclusion is either one is right and the other wrong, or both are wrong. But they both cannot be right because they contradict one another.

Because there is a false belief that we must all believe in every little detail of faith. The Bible describes religious liberty in these passages. There are more, but just to list a few here.

Mark 9:38-40
1 Chor 12: 1-31
Romans 14:1-6

The prejudice/mis-characterizations of Protestant denominations stem in the errant belief that we disagree on the essentials of Christianity. While it does happen, that is the exception and not the norm. There are some denomination that have gone awry. But we can see that with the Reformed Catholic Church too.

The beauty of God’s plan for Protestants is that we have different roles within God’s Kingdom. I’ll give you a real life example. I grew up in the First Church of God (non-denominational) and this church’s focus is evangelizing. I now belong the the Nazarene church our our focus are oversee’s missions. My brother belongs to the Assembly Church of God which focuses on local community service. While we are governed by different bodies, our roles within body of Christ are different. But the essentials of faith are identical. Now my brothers church believes in speaking in tongues (non-essential belief) and my church does not, but we do not condemn the practice.

I hope this helps you develop a better understanding of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[drblank1]

To reject the Church is to be outside the Church. To be outside the Church is to be outside Christ.

So the Holy Spirit is powerless outside the church?

BTW, the church is NOT Christ. This is a distortion of scripture. The Bibical view is the church is the BODY and Christ is the HEAD.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

Because there is a false belief that we must all believe in every little detail of faith. The Bible describes religious liberty in these passages. There are more, but just to list a few here.

Mark 9:38-40
1 Chor 12: 1-31
Romans 14:1-6

The prejudice/mis-characterizations of Protestant denominations stem in the errant belief that we disagree on the essentials of Christianity. While it does happen, that is the exception and not the norm. There are some denomination that have gone awry. But we can see that with the Reformed Catholic Church too.

The beauty of God’s plan for Protestants is that we have different roles within God’s Kingdom. I’ll give you a real life example. I grew up in the First Church of God (non-denominational) and this church’s focus is evangelizing. I now belong the the Nazarene church our our focus are oversee’s missions. My brother belongs to the Assembly Church of God which focuses on local community service. While we are governed by different bodies, our roles within body of Christ are different. But the essentials of faith are identical. Now my brothers church believes in speaking in tongues (non-essential belief) and my church does not, but we do not condemn the practice.

I hope this helps you develop a better understanding of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I would say the doctrines of OSAS vs loose your salvation is a huge doctrine to be wrong on. Wouldn’t you?

 

[drblank1]

I would say the doctrines of OSAS vs loose your salvation is a huge doctrine to be wrong on. Wouldn’t you?

It is a dispute but it does not divide us as brother and sisters of faith.

The Bible itself reveals what is important and essential to the Christian faith. These essentials are the deity of Christ, salvation by God’s grace and not by works, salvation through Jesus Christ alone, the resurrection of Christ, the Gospel, monotheism and the Holy Trinity. These are the “essentials” that we should understand and believe if we are followers of Jesus Christ. Loss of salvation is not one of them.

Although we have concerns about Catholic traditions, and Catholic doctrine differs greatly from Protestant beliefs, we still consider those who put their faith and trust in Jesus as our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[James248]

So the Holy Spirit is powerless outside the church?

BTW, the church is NOT Christ. This is a distortion of scripture. The Bibical view is the church is the BODY and Christ is the HEAD.

He’s not powerless. Those who are outside the Church are.

The Church is the Body of Christ, who He bought with His own Blood. Did not Christ say to His chosen Twelve, “He who receives you receives Me,” and in another place, “As the Father sent Me so I send you?” The Church is the channel by which God manifests His Grace. For this reason those who reject the Church reject Christ.

 

[drblank1]

He’s not powerless. Those who are outside the Church are.

The Church is the Body of Christ, who He bought with His own Blood. Did not Christ say to His chosen Twelve, “He who receives you receives Me,” and in another place, “As the Father sent Me so I send you?” The Church is the channel by which God manifests His Grace. For this reason those who reject the Church reject Christ.

So anyone who picks up the Gospel outside the church cannot come to faith. The Holy Spirit will not guide them to salvation. I’m not saying that person would not join a church. God does not need the church to save.

Proof, Israel is a part of the Kingdom of God but not part of the church. They are still God’s chosen people and God still works through them today. In the end, Israel will be restored to their former glory, bring many to Christ, and rule over us. God does not limit his power only through His church. Simply un-Biblical my friend.

 

[James248]

So anyone who picks up the Gospel outside the church cannot come to faith. The Holy Spirit will not guide them to salvation. I’m not saying that person would not join a church. God does not need the church to save.

Proof, Israel is a part of the Kingdom of God but not part of the church. They are still God’s chosen people and God still works through them today. In the end, Israel will be restored to their former glory, bring many to Christ, and rule over us. God does not limit his power only through His church. Simply un-Biblical my friend.

When does Israel get this glory? WHEN THEY ACCEPT CHRIST! And that just sounds like pure dispensationalism to me. Dispensationalism is unbiblical by the way.

Paul experience Chirst on the road to Damascus. But he didn’t receive the Spirit until Ananias laid hands on him. Cornelius saw an angel telling him to find Peter, but he didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Peter preached in his home.

Even then both Paul and Cornelius had to be baptized. Remember the words of Ananias. “What are you waiting for? Get up. Be baptized and have your sins washes away, calling on His Name.” Immediately after Cornelius received the Spirit, Peter ordered them to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. The Church is the channel by which God manifests His Grace.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Just a quick side note: the idea that there is no salvation outside the church usurps the Power of the Holy Spirit. God was wise in writing the Gospels that anyone could pickup the Bible and understand the Gospels. The Holy Spirit does not need the church to save. The church is a vital part of the Kingdom of God, but it is NOT the totality of the Kingdom.

A great example: the people on Pitcairn Island. They started with not one Christian. But with one Bible and the help of the Holy Spirit, created the idealistic Christian society. And this happened without the church.

“The Power of the Holy Spirit.” Is the Bible then even necessary? How about the peoples in Africa, Asia, and the Americas that for centuries did not have the Bible? Are any of them saved outside of the Bible and of the Church? Did the Power of the Holy Spirit save any of them? Does reliance on the Bible usurp the Holy Spirit? I don’t know the answers to these questions. What is your opinion?

Now, the idea that anyone can pick up the Bible and understand the Gospels is very problematic. I know, this notion is an assertion that many people just assume to be true, but experience through the ages has demonstrated otherwise. In fact, scripture itself says that it can be misunderstood. According to Peter, there are things in the writings of Paul that are hard to understand, that the ignorant and unstable wrest to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

So, scripture itself testifies that if you are ignorant, that is ignorant of basic Christian teachings, not already a Christian, the probability is high that scripture will be misunderstood, with serious consequences due to that misunderstanding. (A word to the wise: Don’t take that chance!)

Now as far as the unstable, they may have heard the Gospel, but because they are unstable, with itchy ears, eager to follow every wind of doctrine, they sway from their foundation, follow a false teacher, and go off to their destruction.

Now, the statement that the people on Pitcairn Island became Christians without the Church is not quite true. Because the Bible is in reality a product of the Church. Without the Church the Bible could not have been canonized, and also, the very scrolls that scripture was written on would not have been copied and preserved! The very belief in God, and belief in the Bible to be inspired, are teachings of the Church.

So, without the Church there would have been no Bible for Pitcairn. Meaning, if there are those of the saved there, it is not entirely outside the Church.