OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

  • Thread starter Thread starter spedteacherita
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
mackbrislawn said:
“The Power of the Holy Spirit.” Is the Bible then even necessary? How about the peoples in Africa, Asia, and the Americas that for centuries did not have the Bible? Are any of them saved outside of the Bible and of the Church? Did the Power of the Holy Spirit save any of them? Does reliance on the Bible usurp the Holy Spirit? I don’t know the answers to these questions. What is your opinion?

Now, the idea that anyone can pick up the Bible and understand the Gospels is very problematic. I know, this notion is an assertion that many people just assume to be true, but experience through the ages has demonstrated otherwise. In fact, scripture itself says that it can be misunderstood. According to Peter, there are things in the writings of Paul that are hard to understand, that the ignorant and unstable wrest to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

So, scripture itself testifies that if you are ignorant, that is ignorant of basic Christian teachings, not already a Christian, the probability is high that scripture will be misunderstood, with serious consequences due to that misunderstanding. (A word to the wise: Don’t take that chance!)

Now as far as the unstable, they may have heard the Gospel, but because they are unstable, with itchy ears, eager to follow every wind of doctrine, they sway from their foundation, follow a false teacher, and go off to their destruction.

Now, the statement that the people on Pitcairn Island became Christians without the Church is not quite true. Because the Bible is in reality a product of the Church. Without the Church the Bible could not have been canonized, and also, the very scrolls that scripture was written on would not have been copied and preserved! The very belief in God, and belief in the Bible to be inspired, are teachings of the Church.

So, without the Church there would have been no Bible for Pitcairn. Meaning, if there are those of the saved there, it is not entirely outside the Church.
Click to expand...
That is a far reach my friend. The point is, God is not limited and has not limited His power only to the church. He works outside the church too. The church is not the end-all be-all of His Kingdom.
 
James248 said:
When does Israel get this glory? WHEN THEY ACCEPT CHRIST! And that just sounds like pure dispensationalism to me. Dispensationalism is unbiblical by the way.

Paul experience Chirst on the road to Damascus. But he didn’t receive the Spirit until Ananias laid hands on him. Cornelius saw an angel telling him to find Peter, but he didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Peter preached in his home.

Even then both Paul and Cornelius had to be baptized. Remember the words of Ananias. “What are you waiting for? Get up. Be baptized and have your sins washes away, calling on His Name.” Immediately after Cornelius received the Spirit, Peter ordered them to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. The Church is the channel by which God manifests His Grace.
Click to expand...
When Israel is restored, the church has already been reptured. How in the world does that happen without the church? Hmmmm… 🙂
 
James248 said:
The Rapture ain’t biblical.
Click to expand...
Sure it is.

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18
1 Corinthians 15:50–54
1 John 3:2

And the Bible even describes Jesus’ returning with His saints after the 7 year tribulation.

Matthew 24:30
2 Thessalonians 1:7
1 Peter 1:13
Revelation 1:7

May God bless you James248. 🙂
 
James248 said:
When does Israel get this glory? WHEN THEY ACCEPT CHRIST! And that just sounds like pure dispensationalism to me. Dispensationalism is unbiblical by the way.

Paul experience Chirst on the road to Damascus. But he didn’t receive the Spirit until Ananias laid hands on him. Cornelius saw an angel telling him to find Peter, but he didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Peter preached in his home.

Even then both Paul and Cornelius had to be baptized. Remember the words of Ananias. “What are you waiting for? Get up. Be baptized and have your sins washes away, calling on His Name.” Immediately after Cornelius received the Spirit, Peter ordered them to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. The Church is the channel by which God manifests His Grace.
Click to expand...
I heard a teaching regarding the Jews conversion from a traditional priest. The concept to me is beautiful and plausible. I don’t know how widespread the belief is but…

In the end times, when the two witnesses are here on earth, the Jews’ eyes will be opened and they will recognize the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the fulfillment of Judaism and will convert en masse at that time. I don’t know how old this concept is or where it originates, but it sure makes more sense than anything else I’ve heard.
 
Debbie_Kono said:
I heard a teaching regarding the Jews conversion from a traditional priest. The concept to me is beautiful and plausible. I don’t know how widespread the belief is but…

In the end times, when the two witnesses are here on earth, the Jews’ eyes will be opened and they will recognize the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the fulfillment of Judaism and will convert en masse at that time. I don’t know how old this concept is or where it originates, but it sure makes more sense than anything else I’ve heard.
Click to expand...
Never heard of the concept and certainly is not documented in the Bible. But what is in the Bible is the two witness at the wall (probably Enoch and Elijah) don’t just preach to Israel but the world. Revelations tell us the remnant (about 1/3 of Israel) will come to faith in Christ. This is after the church is taken to spare us from the tribulation.

But let’s get back on subject shall we? 🙂
 
drblank1 said:
That is a far reach my friend. The point is, God is not limited and has not limited His power only to the church. He works outside the church too. The church is not the end-all be-all of His Kingdom.
Click to expand...
I agree. God is not limited. For example, who knows what provisions He has for all those over the centuries who have not heard of the Gospel nor of Scripture? What is your opinion?

Of course, the standard way God has set up is through the Church. The Biblical teaching is that Jesus is the head of the Church, and the Church is His body. The head uses the body as its tool. So Jesus, the head of the Church, uses His body, the Church, as the means through which the Gospel is spread. Scripture, in turn, is then one of the tools the body uses.

Now, if the church is not the end-all, how about the Bible? Maybe the Bible is not the end-all either? You ignored that question. Can the Spirit operate independently of scripture? (It seems from the Protestant point of view, no.)
 
drblank1 said:
Sure it is.

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18
1 Corinthians 15:50–54
1 John 3:2

And the Bible even describes Jesus’ returning with His saints after the 7 year tribulation.

Matthew 24:30
2 Thessalonians 1:7
1 Peter 1:13
Revelation 1:7

May God bless you James248. 🙂
Click to expand...
That is your interpretation. Got any Patristic sources for that?
 
mackbrislawn said:
I agree. God is not limited. For example, who knows what provisions He has for all those over the centuries who have not heard of the Gospel nor of Scripture? What is your opinion?

Of course, the standard way God has set up is through the Church. The Biblical teaching is that Jesus is the head of the Church, and the Church is His body. The head uses the body as its tool. So Jesus, the head of the Church, uses His body, the Church, as the means through which the Gospel is spread. Scripture, in turn, is then one of the tools the body uses.

Now, if the church is not the end-all, how about the Bible? Maybe the Bible is not the end-all either? You ignored that question. Can the Spirit operate independently of scripture? (It seems from the Protestant point of view, no.)
Click to expand...
Yes, the God has the power to operate independently. For those who never heard the Gospel, my hope is that through the Spirit’s Power and Father’s endless Grace, those remote people were saved. But we won’t know until we get to Heaven, will we?

The Be-All and End-All of the God’s Kingdom is The Father, Son (the Word), and Holy Ghost. Israel, the Church, the Heavenly angels, etc… are the parts/tools of His Kingdom.
 
James248 said:
That is your interpretation. Got any Patristic sources for that?
Click to expand...
I prefer Scripture to stand on It’s own but OK.

Irenaeus, "Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”, Against Heresies 5.29

Cyprian, “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”, Treatises of Cyprian

Ephraim The Syrian, ““Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.” , On The Last Times 2
 
drblank1 said:
Yes, the God has the power to operate independently. For those who never heard the Gospel, my hope is that through the Spirit’s Power and Father’s endless Grace, those remote people were saved. But we won’t know until we get to Heaven, will we?

The Be-All and End-All of the God’s Kingdom is The Father, Son (the Word), and Holy Ghost. Israel, the Church, the Heavenly angels, etc… are the parts/tools of His Kingdom.
Click to expand...
Yes, we hope that those remote people were saved. At least you and I do. Although there are some people that will say they are all damned.

Sure, of course you’re right.–the Be-All and End-All is God Himself. But, that wasn’t the question, which really was, how has God revealed Himself? Through the Church? Through Scripture? Or direct communication via the Holy Spirit? In which case, why bother with Church and Scripture at all?
 
drblank1 said:
My strongest fruit given by the Spirit is forgiveness. How about you? 🙂
Click to expand...
That is indeed a strong fruit, because without forgiveness, we ourselves can’t be forgiven…“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” It is something I have trouble with.

Now, when we come to the pearly gates, will we have to show our fruits to prove our faith was saving faith?
 
drblank1 said:
I prefer Scripture to stand on It’s own but OK.

Irenaeus, "Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”, Against Heresies 5.29

Cyprian, “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”, Treatises of Cyprian

Ephraim The Syrian, ““Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.” , On The Last Times 2
Click to expand...
catholic.com/tract/the-rapture
 
drblank1 said:
Because there is a false belief that we must all believe in every little detail of faith. The Bible describes religious liberty in these passages. There are more, but just to list a few here.

Mark 9:38-40
1 Chor 12: 1-31
Romans 14:1-6

The prejudice/mis-characterizations of Protestant denominations stem in the errant belief that we disagree on the essentials of Christianity. While it does happen, that is the exception and not the norm. There are some denomination that have gone awry. But we can see that with the Reformed Catholic Church too.

The beauty of God’s plan for Protestants is that we have different roles within God’s Kingdom. I’ll give you a real life example. I grew up in the First Church of God (non-denominational) and this church’s focus is evangelizing. I now belong the the Nazarene church our our focus are oversee’s missions. My brother belongs to the Assembly Church of God which focuses on local community service. While we are governed by different bodies, our roles within body of Christ are different. But the essentials of faith are identical. Now my brothers church believes in speaking in tongues (non-essential belief) and my church does not, but we do not condemn the practice.

I hope this helps you develop a better understanding of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
Click to expand...
Which Protestant denomination has the correct list of essentials/non-essentials? Seems to me this list is getting smaller and smaller in Protestantism. Example: at one time (until 1930) all of Protestantism believed as the CC still does today that contraception was sinful. What changed here? God? Or man wishing to make something sinful acceptable?
 
Debbie_Kono said:
Which Protestant denomination has the correct list of essentials/non-essentials? Seems to me this list is getting smaller and smaller in Protestantism. Example: at one time (until 1930) all of Protestantism believed as the CC still does today that contraception was sinful. What changed here? God? Or man wishing to make something sinful acceptable?
Click to expand...
Actually, thinking it through just a bit, can you Dr give us the infallible list of essentials Christians need to adhere to?
 
Debbie_Kono said:
Actually, thinking it through just a bit, can you Dr give us the infallible list of essentials Christians need to adhere to?
Click to expand...
Yeah that’s a common Non Catholic argument…that they agree on essentials.

Well since it’s sola scriptura…where in the bible is this chart or list of essential vs non essential teachings?

Jesus says we must feed on every Word from the mouth of God. And Peter says people lack understanding of Paul’s letters and therefore it leads to their destruction.

Seems as if we were intended to have objective, visible standard of authority. And that cant be the bible if so many interpret it differently.

So either i trust in the CC or i trust in my own ability to properly interpret the bible. One of those two is my perceived authority as a Christian since books don’t interpret themselves
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top