OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

[Debbie_Kono]

I will not judge your faith. All I know for certainty is Jesus paid my full price and redeemed me. I have placed my full faith and trust in His finished work. I’m have peace because the Bible reinforces my faith. I joy in the day I will see Jesus face to face.

It seems that you are trying to prove that Protestants are at odds with each other. While some have gone astray (accepting homosexuality or abortion), so have some Catholics like the Reformed Catholic Church.

Protestants agree on the essentials which I previously provided to you. It doesn’t seem you are asking for you own edification but to vilify. If I’m wrong, I apologize in advance.

If you believe a central authority is needed to determine doctrine. Then you can and I don’t judge you for that. Its a non-essential issue. But we (you and I and every authentic Christian) has the Holy Spirit living inside us to guide us to truth and expose false teachings. This is very Biblical.

I’m sorry if you feel vilified Dr. My intent is to give a Catholic position on things…it is after all a Catholic site. I’m sorry I don’t see in previous posts or recall you providing the essential list. And I am pretty certain that list does not exist, as you just stated above there are those churches which now accept abortion and homosexuality. Even if you do away with the obvious erroneous beliefs (abortion/homosexuality) there is still much disagreement within Protestantism. For example: I can provide you with links to two pastors (David Pawson and Francis Chan) who say that divorce and remarriage constitutes adultery. Would you agree that adultery is still sin? That those committing it, without repenting will very likely not go to heaven? I’ve heard Pastor Chan in person, did a few of his studies and he sure did appear to have the HS dwelling within him…yet most of Protestantism doesn’t see divorce/remarriage as he does…a deal breaker. If these two pastors are correct, it seems to me that a lot of Protestants (and Catholics who ignore the Church’s teaching) are in grave danger and living under a false sense of security.

Authority is not a bad thing Dr. The laws (authority) governing our nation are biblical; think Moses and Jethro his father in law. Without laws we have chaos…and it’s no different within the Church. Without authority (and tradition) there is no Bible. Without authority (and tradition) there is no sure understanding of the interpretations of Scripture. Without authority it is chaos.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

First of all, thanks for responding to everyone here. I’ve been on the other side of this and it’s not easy to do…very time consuming.

Yes, I absolutely trust in Him to guide me. He does it all the time, both individually and through other believers.

I think a fundamental difference between us is our understanding of the Gospel message on who/what the Church actually is.

You say:

We all receive the Spirit. Yet you or I don’t author scripture…

We don’t determine what is scripture…

We don’t forgive or retain sins(John 20:21-23)

We don’t settle matters between believers with final decisions with the ability to ex communicate if need be. (Matt 18:17)

And if we are teaching different doctrine, then we cant be the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth: (Tim 3:15)

So we as believers have promises, but the Church obviously has greater responsibility and promises that wouldn’t apply to us personally.

It was the Church authority that was given the promise of not failing in Matt 16; not individuals.

Thank you.

I genuinely tried to believe in OSAS…I really did. But the scriptures testify so heavily against it that I can not.

You brought up a interesting passage in Hebrews 10. Chapter 6 of that same book is also interesting . I remember taking those passages to a protestant minister and discussing OSAS with him and he flat out admitted he has no way to refute the Arminian position thanks to those passages. And this is a very godly man with a master’s degree in divinity. I appreciated his honesty.

I think I can agree with you that if a person is saved(elect) they are always saved. Election is biblical…The problem is our hearts are wicked and can deceive us. (Jeremiah 17:9) So only God knows the elect since we have not died yet.

And I’ve seen over the years how Christians have, I guess, murdered their own conscience and convinced themselves that immorality is ok such as birth control(not OK’ d by anyone prior to 1930, btw) female ordination and homosexuality, etc. And most or all those folks think they are saved and that everything is ok when it obviously isn’t. And they read the same scriptures we do. I think it’s proof positive that a visible, objective standard of authority is necessary and was what Jesus actually established for us. Instead of Jesus and me, it’s actually Jesus and we…the authoritative Church he established with the communion of saints.

Not saying you are deceived or anything like that. I’m glad you have peace I’m sure you are a great Christian and you probably are going to heaven. We just have totally different understandings about what Jesus left for us here. Did he intend on us being together on this gigantic vessel or did he intend for us to be on individual life rafts and/or much smaller ships as we sail through this journey of life in our Christian walk. Big questions, not easy answers.

The Lord be with you.

Sure wish I would have seen this before my less than eloquent post…thank you. So very edifying.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Of course, the Holy Spirit helps us along the way. For the Catholic, that is a purpose of the sacraments, means of securing his faith, until his final salvation at the judgment. But for the OSAS believer, the sacraments seem pointless, since the OSAS believer thinks he is already saved!

I hope this clarifies a little bit what the point of discussion is, so we won’t be talking past one another.

Exactly

As someone who has been on both sides of the Tiber, I can say, without a doubt, that the sacraments help us become better Christians and free our attachments to sins …They are, in a sense, spiritual vaccines and I’m so glad we have access to them.

Now, they did seem rather pointless and man made to me as a non Catholic. Then again, Barbacoa looked disgusting to me until I put some of it in a tortilla and tried it.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Sure wish I would have seen this before my less than eloquent post…thank you. So very edifying.

God bless you

 

[James248]

Both are messages of encouragement for those who will suffer during the tribulation. Jesus is encouraging. Nowhere does he say if they fold under persecution you will be damned.

Can you explain the Biblical promises I provided you in my previous post?

It takes huge mental gymnastics to make your claims. Jesus said that anyone who denies Him before men He will deny before His Father in Heaven.

 

[drblank1]

Yes, I believe all my sins have been paid for by Jesus’ sacrifice. However, that is not the issue, because everybody accepts that Jesus paid for all our sins. That is not the point. The point is, will I remain in grace, not break faith and reject Jesus, before I receive the benefits of that sacrifice?

You ask, why would anyone break faith? Yes, indeed. Quite a valid question. Because you have said a person with faith would never fall away. A possible answer, the one I believe you adhere to, is that such a person did not have authentic, saving faith to begin with. Maybe this answer is correct, for all we know. The problem with that answer is that we then have to postulate that there is such a thing as “saving” faith as opposed to “non-saving” faith. This postulate strikes me as somewhat artificial or ad hoc, simply for the purpose of explaining away why some people stay in the faith and some fall away. “Why did that person fall away? Why, he wasn’t saved to begin with!”

So, how can this postulate be disproved? It can’t, this side of heaven. So what good is it? Well, it preserves the doctrine of once saved, always saved. A doctrine that has a back-door escape clause: “That’s why he fell away, he didn’t have saving faith!” “If saved, always saved.” What a big IF!

True, perhaps for some people, such as yourself, the Holy Spirit has granted special affirmation. But not for all. That is why the Catholic viewpoint allows for the possibility of future falling away, even if for now one feels he has saving faith, thinks he is secure. And he* is* secure, because Jesus is trustworthy. But, are we trustworthy? That is the question.

Of course, the Holy Spirit helps us along the way. For the Catholic, that is a purpose of the sacraments, means of securing his faith, until his final salvation at the judgment. But for the OSAS believer, the sacraments seem pointless, since the OSAS believer thinks he is already saved!

I hope this clarifies a little bit what the point of discussion is, so we won’t be talking past one another.

Very good response. I appreciate how you challenge me. Truly I do.

If you believe all your sins have been paid for and you’ve accepted Jesus as Savior in authentic faith, there is no more condemnation. There is no more punishment for you. Everyone will sin after salvation. But hopefully, less and less as we grow in God. But either way, those sins have been paid for. There is no more punishment needed. That is why you cannot lose your salvation. Either the price has been paid IN FULL, or it has not. It can’t be both.

I know its hard for someone who comes from a background of believing in penance and purgatory (not assuming you do), but the price has been paid or it has not.

And those who believe in the perseverance of the saints never believe there is an escape clause; that we have a license to sin. This is a misnomer.

 

[drblank1]

It takes huge mental gymnastics to make your claims. Jesus said that anyone who denies Him before men He will deny before His Father in Heaven.

I’m sorry but its big Biblical gymnastics to deny these passage don’t mean what they mean.

And the passage you refer to now? Jesus will deny anyone who is ashamed to claim Him.

He was not referring to those facing boiling oil, being racked, being disemboweled, burning at the stake, being crucified, etc…

 

[drblank1]

I think I can agree with you that if a person is saved(elect) they are always saved. Election is biblical…The problem is our hearts are wicked and can deceive us. (Jeremiah 17:9) So only God knows the elect since we have not died yet.

So you do believe in OSAS? But contend that you don’t know if you’re one of the elect?

Born-again Christians trust in God. He overcomes our deceitful heart with Truth.

Jeremiah 9
7 “But blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord,
whose confidence is in him.
8 They will be like a tree planted by the water
that sends out its roots by the stream.
It does not fear when heat comes;
its leaves are always green.
It has no worries in a year of drought
and never fails to bear fruit.”

 

[drblank1]

Thank you for the discourse.

My Catholic wife asked me the other week how I can be sure of my fate and she is not. I tried to help her from my born-again perspective but that didn’t help. So I was glad to see this thread (and another thread on faith and works) to understand the difficulties she was experience and I think I have better insight to help her find the joy and peace that God promises all of His children.

You have given me a lot to help her through and I thank God for you all.

 

[James248]

I’m sorry but its big Biblical gymnastics to deny these passage don’t mean what they mean.

And the passage you refer to now? Jesus will deny anyone who is ashamed to claim Him.

He was not referring to those facing boiling oil, being racked, being disemboweled, burning at the stake, being crucified, etc…

Which is what you’re doing right now. Jesus clearly said that one’s perseverance will secure his life.

And in 1 Timothy, Paul says Christ will deny us if we deny Him. Including those who recant under torture.

Salvation is us abiding in God and He in us. When we accept God, we are signing a marriage contract that He wrote. We may not be faithful to the terms but He always is. But if we divorce ourselves from Him, He’ll honor our choice.

In the words of St Augustine, who emphasized God’s grace against the heresy of Pelagius, “God created us without us, but He wants to save us with us.” Salvation is 100% God and 100%you.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Born-again Christians trust in God. He overcomes our deceitful heart with Truth.

Jeremiah 9
7 “But blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord,
whose confidence is in him.
8 They will be like a tree planted by the water
that sends out its roots by the stream.
It does not fear when heat comes;
its leaves are always green.
It has no worries in a year of drought
and never fails to bear fruit.”

Hi Drblank

Right, because the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, right? (John 16:13) But is that promise of “all truth” for the first ever church leadership or was it for each individual person practicing sola scriptura? Remember no complete bible existed then and who Jesus was actually talking to.

Pax

 

[drblank1]

Hi Drblank

Right, because the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, right? (John 16:13) But is that promise of “all truth” for the first ever church leadership or was it for each individual person practicing sola scriptura? Remember no complete bible existed then and who Jesus was actually talking to.

Pax

The disciples were his audience but that full truth is a promise to us all. It doesn’t matter the NT wasn’t compiled yet. You forget the full Truth was was already available in the OT.

 

[drblank1]

Which is what you’re doing right now. Jesus clearly said that one’s perseverance will secure his life.

And in 1 Timothy, Paul says Christ will deny us if we deny Him. Including those who recant under torture.

Salvation is us abiding in God and He in us. When we accept God, we are signing a marriage contract that He wrote. We may not be faithful to the terms but He always is. But if we divorce ourselves from Him, He’ll honor our choice.

In the words of St Augustine, who emphasized God’s grace against the heresy of Pelagius, “God created us without us, but He wants to save us with us.” Salvation is 100% God and 100%you.

My belief which I have proven Biblical-founded, if you are His elected, you are elected and He will preserve us to the end. If one is not, one is not.

God bless you James.

 

[James248]

My belief which I have proven Biblical-founded, if you are His elected, you are elected and He will preserve us to the end. If one is not, one is not.

God bless you James.

I have proven my belief Biblically. The question is: who is right and who is wrong.

This is why God instituted the Church with a hierarchy.

 

[drblank1]

Just one last scripture: “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.” 1 John 3:9.

If you are born-again/born of God, you don’t lose you sonship. Those born of God will never see hell.

If someone continued to sin (didn’t persevere as James puts it) right up to death, they weren’t saved to begin with. If saved, always saved.

 

[James248]

Just one last scripture: “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.” 1 John 3:9.

If you are born-again/born of God, you don’t lose you sonship. Those born of God will never see hell.

If someone continued to sin (didn’t persevere as James puts it) right up to death, they weren’t saved to begin with. If saved, always saved.

Romans 11
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. 19 Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, [perhaps] he will not spare you either. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

[drblank1]

I have proven my belief Biblically. The question is: who is right and who is wrong.

This is why God instituted the Church with a hierarchy.

The Holy Spirit is correct!

And the church authority was never established to dictate doctrine. We are to hold them accountable for all doctrine taught. Acts 17:11

 

[drblank1]

Romans 11
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. 19 Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, [perhaps] he will not spare you either. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

“you remain in his kindness” is steadfast perseverance of faith which is a bi-product of salvation. Not a means to it.

Isn’t it great God does not contradict Himself. “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.” 1 John 3:9.

And if **perhaps ** a branch were to be cut off, it was never God’s from the beginning.

 

[James248]

“you remain in his kindness” is steadfast perseverance of faith which is a bi-product of salvation. Not a means to it.

Isn’t it great God does not contradict Himself. “No one who is born of God will continue to sin because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning because they have been born of God.” 1 John 3:9.

**And if **perhaps **** a branch were to be cut off, it was never God’s from the beginning.

Perseverance guarantees salvation. It is not a means to it. Christ said, “By your perseverance, you will secure your lives.”

A person who falls away is not a member of God’s sheep according to final salvation but was a member of God’s sheep according to initial salvation.

 

[James248]

The Holy Spirit is correct!

And the church authority was never established to dictate doctrine. We are to hold them accountable for all doctrine taught. Acts 17:11

The Holy Spirit speaks through the hierarchy of the Church. The Holy Spirit is the soul of the Church.

In Matthew 16, Jesus gave Peter the authority to bind and loose.