OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

[mackbrislawn]

Very good response. I appreciate how you challenge me. Truly I do.

If you believe all your sins have been paid for and you’ve accepted Jesus as Savior in authentic faith, there is no more condemnation. There is no more punishment for you. Everyone will sin after salvation. But hopefully, less and less as we grow in God. But either way, those sins have been paid for. There is no more punishment needed. That is why you cannot lose your salvation. Either the price has been paid IN FULL, or it has not. It can’t be both.

I know its hard for someone who comes from a background of believing in penance and purgatory (not assuming you do), but the price has been paid or it has not.

And those who believe in the perseverance of the saints never believe there is an escape clause; that we have a license to sin. This is a misnomer.

Indeed, it has been a challenge!

You are correct, the price has been paid in full. But again, that is not the point. The parable of the prodigal son may illustrate the point.

The son went off from his father and led riotous living until he ended up sleeping with the pigs and consorting with gentiles. Nothing could be lower or more unclean. But, we know that even while the son was gone away and doing these loathsome things, his father had already forgiven him. The father was always awaiting his return and saw him coming and ran joyfully out to greet him.

So, even though the son’s sins were forgiven, that fact did the son no good, it was of no benefit until he repented and came back to the father. If the son had not returned, he would have died among the pigs. In like manner, if we sin and do not repent, the same fate awaits us.

No, that is not what I meant as an “escape clause.” Nothing to do with a “license to sin.” It refers to the inability to disprove the idea of “if saved, always saved,” and that if a person does sin and fall away it shows that person was not saved to begin with. I regard that statement as, what a convenient way to get around the fact that some supposedly saved persons do in fact sin and fall away!

As an aside, a general question–if the price has been paid in full, that sort of means that everybody is saved, because their price has been paid?

 

[MaryT777]

I will not judge your faith. All I know for certainty is Jesus paid my full price and redeemed me. I have placed my full faith and trust in His finished work. I’m have peace because the Bible reinforces my faith. I joy in the day I will see Jesus face to face.

It seems that you are trying to prove that Protestants are at odds with each other. While some have gone astray (accepting homosexuality or abortion), **so have some Catholics like the Reformed Catholic Church.
**
Protestants agree on the essentials which I previously provided to you. It doesn’t seem you are asking for you own edification but to vilify. If I’m wrong, I apologize in advance.

If you believe a central authority is needed to determine doctrine. Then you can and I don’t judge you for that. Its a non-essential issue. But we (you and I and every authentic Christian) has the Holy Spirit living inside us to guide us to truth and expose false teachings. This is very Biblical.

The Reformed “Catholic Church” is not a Catholic Church. You can use the word “Catholic” but that defines a Church in Communion with Churcch, the magisterium, and the Bible.

**From its own website:

Catholic and Inclusive
We are Catholic in our liturgy, sacraments, and apostolic succession, but we are not Roman Catholic. Our heritage flows from the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht, which split with the Roman Catholic Church in 1870 over certain doctrines of the First Vatican Council. *We profess a more progressive theology, ordain men and women, offer open communion, and are fully affirmative and inclusive of the LGBTQ community in the life of the Church, including Holy Orders.
**

reformedcatholic.org/

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The disciples were his audience but that full truth is a promise to us all. It doesn’t matter the NT wasn’t compiled yet. You forget the full Truth was was already available in the OT.

The OT is God’s will concealed…the NT is God’s will revealed.

Disagree with your assertion of that promise being for each individual. If it were true, then each denomination would teach the same things as God is the not the author of confusion.

God bless you.

 

[James248]

“you remain in his kindness” is steadfast perseverance of faith which is a bi-product of salvation. Not a means to it.

Isn’t it great God does not contradict Himself. “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.” 1 John 3:9.

And if **perhaps ** a branch were to be cut off, it was never God’s from the beginning.

Let me ask you a question: Do ANY of the Fathers teach OSAS?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

So you do believe in OSAS? But contend that you don’t know if you’re one of the elect?

Hi Dr.

I hold to the Catholic position which essentially says the elect are saved, but only God knows who they are.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thank you for the discourse.

My Catholic wife asked me the other week how I can be sure of my fate and she is not. I tried to help her from my born-again perspective but that didn’t help. So I was glad to see this thread (and another thread on faith and works) to understand the difficulties she was experience and I think I have better insight to help her find the joy and peace that God promises all of His children.

You have given me a lot to help her through and I thank God for you all.

As a Catholic in good standing she can have reasonable assurance of heaven.

This is a area that Protestants outshine Catholics in(in general) Not enough Catholics know the great mercy of God. For example, while unconfessed mortal sin can lead to hell…if a person is truly repentant and confesses directly to God before going to the sacrament of reconciliation, they can still go to heaven. Says right there in the CCC that God is not bound to sacraments. Not saying your wife falls into this category, but not enough Catholics overall know this stuff. And it can kill their joy and they become overscrupulous …

This must be challenging for the both of you. But it’s great you are both committed Christians. God bless your marriage.

 

[LatinRight]

As a Catholic in good standing she can have reasonable assurance of heaven.

This is a area that Protestants outshine Catholics in(in general) Not enough Catholics know the great mercy of God. For example, while unconfessed mortal sin can lead to hell…if a person is truly repentant and confesses directly to God before going to the sacrament of reconciliation, they can still go to heaven. Says right there in the CCC that God is not bound to sacraments. Not saying your wife falls into this category, but not enough Catholics overall know this stuff. And it can kill their joy and they become overscrupulous …

This must be challenging for the both of you. But it’s great you are both committed Christians. God bless your marriage.

**God bless Lenten Ashes and every readers of the CAF.

You said Lenten Ashes:**
Unconfessed mortal sin can lead to hell … if a person is truly repent … they can still go to heaven.

Seems to me, you are Lenten Ashes referring to a person who could end up either in heaven or in hell.

As far as I know, and I’m sure, this kind of person does not exists in Catholic theology.

Sorry but I can’t really work out to whom do you referring to, because nothing can lead to hell an elect of God because God is the One who keeps His elect on the narrow road.

An elect can never be in a position which position an elect could die and end up in hell.

If an elect could be in a position, which position an elect could die and would end up in hell, then it would be a possibility that an elect could die in this position and would end up in hell. – And if that would happen, God would lose His omniscience.

Logical conclusions:

1. God can never lose His omniscience.
2. So, an elect can never be in a position, which position an elect could die and would end up in hell.

THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE IN THE CASE OF THE REPROBATES

In case of the reprobates, by their rejection of God and His grace practically they predestined themselves to hell from all eternity, and their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity.

For the above reasons, they can never have life, they can never have a valid baptism, they can never be saved and they can never be in the state of grace.

If the reprobates could be saved, they would be in the state of grace.

If they would be in the state of grace, some of them could die in the state of grace and they would end up in heaven. – If even one of them would die in the state of grace he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience.

So, logically we can conclude:
Reprobates can never be saved and they can never be in the state of grace, as the result, none of them could die in the state of grace and God’s omniscience is not in any danger.

Do you agree Lenten Ashes with my above post?

THERE IS ANOTHER REASON REPROBATES CANNOT BE SAVED

God performs His part of a valid baptism (our inward man, spirit + soul) in heaven, if a reprobate would reach heaven, God would lose His omniscience.

God bless Lenten Ashes and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[James248]

**God bless Lenten Ashes and every readers of the CAF.

You said Lenten Ashes:**
Unconfessed mortal sin can lead to hell … if a person is truly repent … they can still go to heaven.

Seems to me, you are Lenten Ashes referring to a person who could end up either in heaven or in hell.

As far as I know, and I’m sure, this kind of person does not exists in Catholic theology.

Sorry but I can’t really work out to whom do you referring to, because nothing can lead to hell an elect of God because God is the One who keeps His elect on the narrow road.

An elect can never be in a position which position an elect could die and end up in hell.

If an elect could be in a position, which position an elect could die and would end up in hell, then it would be a possibility that an elect could die in this position and would end up in hell. – And if that would happen, God would lose His omniscience.

Logical conclusions:

1. God can never lose His omniscience.
2. So, an elect can never be in a position, which position an elect could die and would end up in hell.

THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE IN THE CASE OF THE REPROBATES

In case of the reprobates, by their rejection of God and His grace practically they predestined themselves to hell from all eternity, and their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity.

For the above reasons, they can never have life, they can never have a valid baptism, they can never be saved and they can never be in the state of grace.

If the reprobates could be saved, they would be in the state of grace.

If they would be in the state of grace, some of them could die in the state of grace and they would end up in heaven. – If even one of them would die in the state of grace he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience.

So, logically we can conclude:
Reprobates can never be saved and they can never be in the state of grace, as the result, none of them could die in the state of grace and God’s omniscience is not in any danger.

Do you agree Lenten Ashes with my above post?

THERE IS ANOTHER REASON REPROBATES CANNOT BE SAVED

God performs His part of a valid baptism (our inward man, spirit + soul) in heaven, if a reprobate would reach heaven, God would lose His omniscience.

God bless Lenten Ashes and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Why is there confession?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

**God bless Lenten Ashes and every readers of the CAF.

You said Lenten Ashes:**
Unconfessed mortal sin can lead to hell … if a person is truly repent … they can still go to heaven.

Seems to me, you are Lenten Ashes referring to a person who could end up either in heaven or in hell.

As far as I know, and I’m sure, this kind of person does not exists in Catholic theology.

Sorry but I can’t really work out to whom do you referring to, because nothing can lead to hell an elect of God because God is the One who keeps His elect on the narrow road.

An elect can never be in a position which position an elect could die and end up in hell.

If an elect could be in a position, which position an elect could die and would end up in hell, then it would be a possibility that an elect could die in this position and would end up in hell. – And if that would happen, God would lose His omniscience.

Logical conclusions:

1. God can never lose His omniscience.
2. So, an elect can never be in a position, which position an elect could die and would end up in hell.

THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE IN THE CASE OF THE REPROBATES

In case of the reprobates, by their rejection of God and His grace practically they predestined themselves to hell from all eternity, and their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity.

For the above reasons, they can never have life, they can never have a valid baptism, they can never be saved and they can never be in the state of grace.

If the reprobates could be saved, they would be in the state of grace.

If they would be in the state of grace, some of them could die in the state of grace and they would end up in heaven. – If even one of them would die in the state of grace he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience.

So, logically we can conclude:
Reprobates can never be saved and they can never be in the state of grace, as the result, none of them could die in the state of grace and God’s omniscience is not in any danger.

Do you agree Lenten Ashes with my above post?

THERE IS ANOTHER REASON REPROBATES CANNOT BE SAVED

God performs His part of a valid baptism (our inward man, spirit + soul) in heaven, if a reprobate would reach heaven, God would lose His omniscience.

God bless Lenten Ashes and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Hi Latin Right.

I mean no disrespect, friend, but I’ve read these numerous posts you have made on election, and it sounds more like Calvinism than Catholicism.

None of us are dead yet. And only the Lord knows who is elect and who is truly a “reprobate”. There have been folks who live like heathen slime dogs their whole life, but then have a genuine deathbed conversion. Are we to assume they go to hell or that it cant be true because they appeared to be a reprobate in this life?

The CC position leaves into account the free will of all man. And they should since it says Jesus died for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

 

[mackbrislawn]

None of us are dead yet. And only the Lord knows who is elect and who is truly a “reprobate”.

Exactly. Only the Lord knows.

However, Calvinistic beliefs seem to have an enormous appeal to some persons.

I wonder why. The only reason that I can think of is that these persons believe that they themselves are of the elect. That somehow God has let them know ahead of time that they are going to heaven. In that case, it is understandable, because yes, what a great realization to have! To know in this life that I am absolutely going to heaven!

Then I further wonder, if any person who accepts Calvinist doctrines believes himself to be one of the reprobate? Because if God reveals to the elect that they are of the elect, logically He also should reveal to the reprobate that they are of the reprobate.

But I doubt if many Calvinistic believers consider themselves to be of the reprobate. Again, I wonder why.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

:yup:

Exactly. Only the Lord knows.

However, Calvinistic beliefs seem to have an enormous appeal to some persons.

I wonder why. The only reason that I can think of is that these persons believe that they themselves are of the elect. That somehow God has let them know ahead of time that they are going to heaven. In that case, it is understandable, because yes, what a great realization to have! To know in this life that I am absolutely going to heaven!

Then I further wonder, if any person who accepts Calvinist doctrines believes himself to be one of the reprobate? Because if God reveals to the elect that they are of the elect, logically He also should reveal to the reprobate that they are of the reprobate.

But I doubt if many Calvinistic believers consider themselves to be of the reprobate. Again, I wonder why.

:yup:

 

[ltwin]

Exactly. Only the Lord knows.

However, Calvinistic beliefs seem to have an enormous appeal to some persons.

I wonder why. The only reason that I can think of is that these persons believe that they themselves are of the elect. That somehow God has let them know ahead of time that they are going to heaven. In that case, it is understandable, because yes, what a great realization to have! To know in this life that I am absolutely going to heaven!

Then I further wonder, if any person who accepts Calvinist doctrines believes himself to be one of the reprobate? Because if God reveals to the elect that they are of the elect, logically He also should reveal to the reprobate that they are of the reprobate.

But I doubt if many Calvinistic believers consider themselves to be of the reprobate. Again, I wonder why.

Not a Calvinist, but I have been reading on Jonathan Edwards, the revivalist and Calvinist theologian. He explained it like this. A true Christian seeks the good of all things, including God and other people, above themselves. This was called “disinterested benevolence”.

This orientation to seek the good of all things originates at conversion when the Holy Spirit was believed to renew the heart so that the convert desires union with Christ through faith and embraces the way of the cross, which is self-sacrifice.In this work of grace, self-love is eliminated and the convert seeks happiness in God. For Edwards, a disinterest in one’s self and a preoccupation with God’s moral excellence was an indication that such a person had been regenerated. Such persons no longer worried over the status of their own souls because their love for God and the contemplation of his glory made assurance of one’s salvation virtually an afterthought.

When you no longer live for your own sake but for God’s glory alone, that is when you know you have been regenerated and are of the elect—but then it doesn’t really matter to you anymore because you are so caught up in loving him that the question of whether you personally are of the elect loses all urgency in light of God’s beauty and holiness and love and goodness.

That is how Edwards answered the question.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Not a Calvinist, but I have been reading on Jonathan Edwards, the revivalist and Calvinist theologian. He explained it like this. A true Christian seeks the good of all things, including God and other people, above themselves. This was called “disinterested benevolence”.

This orientation to seek the good of all things originates at conversion when the Holy Spirit was believed to renew the heart so that the convert desires union with Christ through faith and embraces the way of the cross, which is self-sacrifice.In this work of grace, self-love is eliminated and the convert seeks happiness in God. For Edwards, a disinterest in one’s self and a preoccupation with God’s moral excellence was an indication that such a person had been regenerated. Such persons no longer worried over the status of their own souls because their love for God and the contemplation of his glory made assurance of one’s salvation virtually an afterthought.

When you no longer live for your own sake but for God’s glory alone, that is when you know you have been regenerated and are of the elect—but then it doesn’t really matter to you anymore because you are so caught up in loving him that the question of whether you personally are of the elect loses all urgency in light of God’s beauty and holiness and love and goodness.

That is how Edwards answered the question.

Thanks, this description makes a lot of sense; and it corresponds to descriptions of the lives of Catholic saints. (Yet, oddly enough, not St Paul’s description of himself!) It is certainly how all Christians should be.

So, in Edward’s thinking here God does not Himself inform the individual but it is something the person infers for himself. The person decides it based upon the indications described.

Of course a tacit assumption in Edward’s reasoning above is that he will continue in that state and feeling, and that nothing will come along to interfere or destroy it. The difference between Edward’s theology and Catholic theology is that Edwards considers himself to be locked into that state, as opposed to Catholic thought that allows for the possibility of change.

 

[ltwin]

Thanks, this description makes a lot of sense; and it corresponds to descriptions of the lives of Catholic saints. (Yet, oddly enough, not St Paul’s description of himself!) It is certainly how all Christians should be.

So, in Edward’s thinking here God does not Himself inform the individual but it is something the person infers for himself. The person decides it based upon the indications described.

Of course a tacit assumption in Edward’s reasoning above is that he will continue in that state and feeling, and that nothing will come along to interfere or destroy it. The difference between Edward’s theology and Catholic theology is that Edwards considers himself to be locked into that state, as opposed to Catholic thought that allows for the possibility of change.

Well, in Edwards thinking, this disposition towards self-sacrifice comes about totally by God’s grace after a person has heard the gospel, believes and repents. If a person were to ask Edwards (or the Puritans from which his Congregationalist tradition derived) “how do I repent?” — he would say seek God by using the means of grace and God will create in the heart a new set of affections inclining the person toward Christ.

The difference between Edwards and earlier Puritan Calvinists is that Edwards kind of switches things around. The Puritans taught the concept of preparing oneself to receive God’s grace through using the means of grace and spiritual disciplines available and then they expected a process of spiritual crisis and struggle followed by a spiritual breakthrough of forgiveness followed by a life of sanctification lived in gratitude for Christ’s mercy. That for the Puritans was conversion.

Edwards said there is no reason to wait for all of this stuff to happen before you repent and put your faith in Christ. When you hear the gospel, immediately trust Christ and repent, utilizing the means of grace so that God might change your heart. Those whose hearts were changed would produce the evidence–disinterested benevolence–of such a change.

So, Edwards certainly did not believe in easy believism, and for him conversion was not simply a matter of saying a prayer and then magically you are saved. There is the sense in his theology that you must seek after God and assurance would come not from anything you could do but is based on the work of Christ–but the important part is that you utilize the means of grace he has provided so that he can work through you and change you. Perseverence is necessary to be saved not one time faith.

Perhaps it might help if I quote from Edwards:

". . .as soon as ever a soul has put forth one act of faith towards Jesus, it becomes interested in his righteousness, and so in all the benefits that are purchased by it. The soul is thenceforward united to Christ, and Christ is his and all that he has. When a soul has believed in Christ, God stands bound to do all the rest for him. He stands bound to bestow grace to persevere in faith and holiness, and to carry on his work, even to eternal life.

When once any person has by faith committed himself into the hands of Christ, Christ has promised that he will keep them, and that they never shall pluck them out of his hands. John 10:28, “My sheep shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hands.” But, of a title to salvation. There never is a title to salvation without it. Though it han’t the righteousness by which a title to life is attained, yet none have that righteousness that don’t persevere; and that because although it is not proper to say that perseverance is necessary in order to justification, yet a persevering principle is necessary in order to justification. In order to a title to Christ’s righteousness, ’tis necessary that there should be such a qualification in the heart; that is as it were a seed of perseverance, and such a foundation that perseverance will be the certain result of it ‘Tis necessary that there should be “such an heart in them” in order to justification (Deuteronomy 5:29). ‘Tis necessary that a man should believe in Christ, and cleave to Christ in a persevering way: a temporary faith don’t justify. But in order to that, persons must have that faith that is of a persevering, everlasting sort. He must have that sort of seed that is an abiding seed. ‘Tis not a vanishing but a durable faith that justifies. Though perseverance be not an act performed, till after persons have finished their days; yet perseverance is looked upon as virtually performed in the first act of faith, because that first act is of such a nature as shows the principle to be of a persevering sort.

Perseverance is necessary to salvation, as ’tis the necessary consequence and evidence of effectual calling. ‘Tis an evidence that universally attends uprightness, and the defect of it, an infallible evidence of want of uprightness. Jonathan Edwards [1734], Sermons and Discourses, 1734–1738 (WJE Online Vol. 19) , Ed. M. X. Lesser, page 600-601

 

[ltwin]

Thanks, this description makes a lot of sense; and it corresponds to descriptions of the lives of Catholic saints. (Yet, oddly enough, not St Paul’s description of himself!) It is certainly how all Christians should be.

So, in Edward’s thinking here God does not Himself inform the individual but it is something the person infers for himself. The person decides it based upon the indications described.

Of course a tacit assumption in Edward’s reasoning above is that he will continue in that state and feeling, and that nothing will come along to interfere or destroy it. The difference between Edward’s theology and Catholic theology is that Edwards considers himself to be locked into that state, as opposed to Catholic thought that allows for the possibility of change.

And I should add of Jonathan Edwards, he did not believe that everyone who thought they had faith was actually saved. At the same time, he realized that those who struggled with their assurance might actually be saved. Salvation depends on God’s grace alone, but assurance depends on the evidence of the Spirit’s life within the believer. No one could rest upon a profession of faith if there were no good works to confirm it.

 

[ltwin]

I left part of the quote above out, which makes it confusing. This is the correct quote:

". . .as soon as ever a soul has put forth one act of faith towards Jesus, it becomes interested in his righteousness, and so in all the benefits that are purchased by it. The soul is thenceforward united to Christ, and Christ is his and all that he has. When a soul has believed in Christ, God stands bound to do all the rest for him. **He stands bound to bestow grace to persevere in faith and holiness, and to carry on his work, even to eternal life.
**
When once any person has by faith committed himself into the hands of Christ, Christ has promised that he will keep them, and that they never shall pluck them out of his hands. John 10:28, “My sheep shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hands.” But,

[II.] Affirmatively.5

First. 'Tis necessary to salvation as a necessary consequence6 and evidence of a title to salvation. There never is a title to salvation without it. Though it han’t the righteousness by which a title to life is attained, yet none have that righteousness that don’t persevere; and that because although it is not proper to say that perseverance is necessary in order to justification, yet a persevering principle is necessary in order to justification. In order to a title to Christ’s righteousness, ’tis necessary that there should be such a qualification in the heart; that is as it were a seed of perseverance, and such a foundation that perseverance will be the certain result of it ‘Tis necessary that there should be “such an heart in them” in order to justification (Deuteronomy 5:29). **‘Tis necessary that a man should believe in Christ, and cleave to Christ in a persevering way: a temporary faith don’t justify. But in order to that, persons must have that faith that is of a persevering, everlasting sort. He must have that sort of seed that is an abiding seed. ‘Tis not a vanishing but a durable faith that justifies. Though perseverance be not an act performed, till after persons have finished their days; yet perseverance is looked upon as virtually performed in the first act of faith, because that first act is of such a nature as shows the principle to be of a persevering sort.
**
Perseverance is necessary to salvation, as ’tis the necessary consequence and evidence of effectual calling. ‘Tis an evidence that universally attends uprightness, and the defect of it, an infallible evidence of want of uprightness. Jonathan Edwards [1734], Sermons and Discourses, 1734–1738 (WJE Online Vol. 19) , Ed. M. X. Lesser, page 600-601

So, salvation comes entirely by God’s work in us, but true believers will persevere in faith and holiness. I should add, Edwards did not believe that everyone who thought they had faith was actually saved. At the same time, he realized that those who struggled with their assurance might actually be saved. Salvation depends on God’s grace alone, but assurance depends on the evidence of the Spirit’s life within the believer. No one could rest upon a profession of faith if there were no good works to confirm it.

 

[LatinRight]

Why is there confession?

**God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

Good question.**

I confess you something and that explains it.

When I was a new born again Christian, I have decided; now as I’m a born again Christian, I don’t do any more sin again, and guess what, didn’t last a day.

Probably some Christians not as bad as I’m but sometimes every one of us do some kind of sins because we are not yet perfect.

1 John 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

God bless James.

LatinRight.

 

[James248]

**God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

Good question.**

I confess you something and that explains it.

When I was a new born again Christian, I have decided; now as I’m a born again Christian, I don’t do any more sin again, and guess what, didn’t last a day.

Probably some Christians not as bad as I’m but sometimes every one of us do some kind of sins because we are not yet perfect.

1 John 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

God bless James.

LatinRight.

And what happens after that? You sin again?

Is it really repentance when you keep on sinning?

 

[LatinRight]

Hi Latin Right.

I mean no disrespect, friend, but I’ve read these numerous posts you have made on election, and it sounds more like Calvinism than Catholicism.

None of us are dead yet. And only the Lord knows who is elect and who is truly a “reprobate”. There have been folks who live like heathen slime dogs their whole life, but then have a genuine deathbed conversion. Are we to assume they go to hell or that it cant be true because they appeared to be a reprobate in this life?

The CC position leaves into account the free will of all man. And they should since it says Jesus died for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

**God bless Lenten Ashes and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post. **

Predestination of the elect, among Catholics in general, always was and is the hardest to learn and the most misunderstanding Dogma of the Catholic Church.

Yet, Predestination of the elect is one of the MOST IMPORTANT teachings of the Catholic Church for the Catholics spiritual health, spiritual power/charisma, mental health and to maintain a healthy spiritual life.

My above statement is true and it is very serious, and I prove it as follows:

WHY CATHOLICS DON’T EVANGELIZE?

I have experienced among Catholics the fear and insecurity because most of the

**Catholics I know, **they doesn’t know they spend eternity in heaven or in the torments of
hell and that fear paralyze them.

CAM has an excellent article Why Catholics Don’t Evangelize

The Magazine had a sad joke on the cover which said,

Q: “What do you get if you cross a Catholic with a Jehovah’s Witness?”

A: "Someone who knocks on your door and says nothing."

Why Catholics Don’t Evangelize?

How to move the stumbling blocks of FEAR and IGNORANCE **By: Hector Molina
**

Quote: It’s no secret that Catholics aren’t renowned for their evangelistic prowess or

missionary zeal. This is despite the fact that the last several pontiffs, including Pope

Francis, have written and spoken extensively on the subject, **which has become a

renewed priority for the Church.**

In Matthew 28:19, our Lord enjoined the apostles, “[G]o therefore and make disciples of all

nations.” In Mark 16:15, Jesus commands them, “[G]o into all the world and preach the

gospel to the whole creation.” This is what is referred to as the Great Commission. Sadly,

for many Catholics, the Great Commission has become the Great Omission.

Why is this so? Why don’t Catholics as a whole evangelize?

FEAR

If you were to survey a group of Catholics about what holds them back from sharing the

Faith, the No. 1 response you would get is “Fear.” FEAR PARALYZES many

believers from living out their faith and sharing it with others.

There is a fundamental principle at work here, one summarized by the old Latin axiom

Nemo dat quod non habet (“No one gives WHAT HE DOES NOT HAVE”). **One cannot

share Christ if one has not first** ENCOUNTERED CHRIST, or effectively share the gospel

without experiencing its power in his own life. End quote. Emphasis added.

**Now I ask two questions from you Lenten Ashes. **

a. What a reprobate would lose** if he would believe he is an elect?
**
My answer is: He would lose nothing.

What is your answer Lenten Ashes or the answers of the readers of the CAF?

b. What an elect would lose if he would believe he is an elect?

**My answer is: He would lose his constant fear and paralyzed condition and would be set free to do the great commission out of love, freely, with great pleasure and happiness for the Glory of God. **

What is your answer Lenten Ashes or the answers of the readers of the CAF?

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Continuation

I know that fear and paralyzed state, when someone doesn’t know he is spending eternity in the pains of hell and suffering day and night forever and ever or he is spending eternity in heaven with God as it is written: “- No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.” – 1 Cor.2:9.

I was an atheist before I become a Christian, as a newly born again, even at that time, I could imagine the differences between eternal life in hell and eternal life in heaven.

At that time I had no theological knowledge, someone informed me, until I have some God’s spiritual gift/s I cannot know I’m a reprobate or I’m an elect of God.

After about two weeks I had another Information, another Christian informed me; if you believe the Word of God (John 5:24) and you believe Christ as your Lord and savior (John 3:16; 1 John 5:11-13) you are an elect of God because you received God’s gift of formed faith, without God’s gift of faith as a reprobate, you could never believe the Word of God and you could never believe in Christ as your Lord and savior.

I can tell you Lenten Ashes, that two weeks time, between the two information, I experienced that fear and paralyzed state that many poorly educated Christian experiencing today. – Because they believe; I maybe (not sure) I am an elect today, but maybe I am a reprobate tomorrow.

I was an Evangelical Christian before I become a Catholic, I didn’t believe the Once Saved; Always Saved, same thing with other words; The Salvation of the Elect.

As an Evangelical Christian, I always work hard to keep my elect state.

After when I become a Catholic and I studied the Catholic teachings on predestination, salvation, and I read the Catholic Dogma, Predestination of the elect, that teaching changed my Christian life, totally liberated my spiritual life, because until this point mainly I worked to keep my elect state.

Salvation of the Elect. = Once Saved; Always Saved.

**At this point, I realised; **I don’t need to work to keep my elect state, **God is the One Who keeping me on my elect state, **from that point on I did start to work freely, in perfect heavenly joy, out of sheer love for the Glory of God and out of sheer love for others.

This is above knowledge could be called, the LIBERATION OF THE SOUL AND SPIRIT.

At this point in my spiritual and Christian life fulfilled: “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” – John 8:32.

The view in some Catholic circles, that we cannot know our state/position until we die, is a very misguided and spiritually unhealthy and UN-BIBLICAL view.

GOD WANTS US TO HAVE ASSURANCE OF OUR SALVATION

John 14:21; Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and manifest Myself to them.”

Rom.8:16; The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

We should not live our Christian lives wondering and worrying in the paralyzed state each day whether or not we are God’s elect or God and His grace rejecting reprobates.

Rom.8:15;
For you did NOT receive the spirit of bondage again to FEAR, but you received the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION by whom we cry out “ABBA, FATHER.”

**In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it! **

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

Quote: “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.

TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote.

If we would be God and His grace rejecting Reprobates, there is no way we could and we would BELIEVE the above Bible verses that we are God’s children.

And we could NOT and we would NOT obey the above COMMAND of God to test ourselves to know our states.

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