OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

[LatinRight]

Continuation

PREDESTINATION OF THE ELECT IS CATHOLIC DE FIDE DOGMA OR CALVINISM?

The Predestination of the elect is Catholic DE FIDE Dogma.

Probably the most active workers on the school of predestination, long before even John Calvin born (1509 – 1564) were St. Augustine (354 – 430) and St. Thomas Aquians (1225 – 1274).

John Calvin adopted the Catholic predestination of the elect from St. Augustine and from St. Thomas Aquians.

Even today the Protestant Calvinistic and the Catholic Thomistic Predestination of the elect to heaven **practically about the same.
**

The Catholic Church declared the Calvinistic predestination of the reprobates to hell is heresy and rightfully so, because the Calvinistic school of Predestination teaches:

God unconditionally predestines the reprobates to hell, which is a random predestination of the reprobates, with other words; predestination to hell without considering demerits.

**THE TEACHINGS OF HE CC ON PEDESTINATION TO HELL; CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA PREDESTINATION **

Quote: Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost through their own fault, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven …

(b) one to the pains of hell …

However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation”, so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the reprobation of the wicked.

This plan of Divine reprobation may be conceived either as absolute and unconditional or conditional. End quote.

The Catholic Church teaches conditional (considering demerits) predestination to hell, only call it “Decree the Divine reprobation", which means; **negative or conditional predestination to hell.
**

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

You Lenten Ashes mentioned genuine deathbed conversion of the elect.

In the Scripture and in teachings of the CC, concerning the timing of the conversion and the initial justification of the elect is very clear.

THE TIMING OF THE CONVERSION OF THE ELECT IS GOD’S

John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you …”

John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.

Phil.1:29; For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.

Acts 13:48; When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. – As we see; ONLY the elect appointed to eternal life and ONLY the elect believed.

John 10:26; But you do not believe because you are not my sheep. – Only the elect believe and only the elect are Christ’s sheep, NO ONE ELSE!!!

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.

SUMMARY

Predestination of the elect is one of the MOST IMPORTANT teachings of the Catholic Church for the Catholics spiritual health, spiritual power/charisma, mental health and to maintaining a balanced and healthy physical and spiritual life.

In general the Catholics GREATEST mistake of their lack of knowledge of the Predestination of the elect, which results is lack of security.

Some Christians believe, even they are elect today, tomorrow they can be reprobates and** if they die in this state end up in hell.
**

Elect and reprobates both LOCKED in their position FROM ALL ETERNITY.

**The truth is: **An elect can never lose his Salvation/Everlasting life and a reprobate can never be saved.

The above knowledge is the foundation of security and to know:

God is the One who saves His elect by making them cooperate with His grace without violating their free will.

So, they are all actively cooperate with the grace of God.

Of course the elect are not God’s puppets and their cooperation with the grace of God is vary, but at least every elect has that much cooperation with the grace of God that makes their place in heaven 100 % sure.

If even one elect would end up in hell, that would be God’s failure and He would lose His omniscience. – *DE FIDE *Dogma.

God bless Lenten Ashes and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[benhur]

benhur;14737224]Yes. Everybody is of the old nature until they have heard the Word, believed, repented, and are then regenerated by water and the Spirit. They at this time are born again, from above, and are a child of God. They are a new creation, buried in baptism, and arisen as a new creature.

Hi M,

Understand, but what you are saying is that the old man can believe in Jesus Christ, before regeneration. Can the old man confess Jesus as Savior without an indwelling of the Holy Ghost, without His power ? Maybe get baptized to formally get your sins forgiven, but not for regeneration. And can the holy Spirit indwell a temple where sins have not been forgiven ? Can one be baptized in the Holy Ghost without sins forgiven (yet Cornelius was).

These are some of the reasons I am careful to assign total effectiveness to a rite.

Blessings

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi M,

Understand, but what you are saying is that the old man can believe in Jesus Christ, before regeneration. Can the old man confess Jesus as Savior without an indwelling of the Holy Ghost, without His power ? Maybe get baptized to formally get your sins forgiven, but not for regeneration. And can the holy Spirit indwell a temple where sins have not been forgiven ? Can one be baptized in the Holy Ghost without sins forgiven (yet Cornelius was).

These are some of the reasons I am careful to assign total effectiveness to a rite.

Blessings

In Peter’s discourse in Acts, the old man apparently did believe, and accept what Peter said, because they were stung to the heart, and asked, brothers, what should we do? And Peter replied, you must repent, and every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, in order to have your sins forgiven; then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…Acts 1:37-39 Then further on, Acts 1:47…And every day the Lord added people who were saved to their number.

The implication in 1:47 is that the Lord added people by means of baptism, which is what caused these people to be saved.

So, apparently the old man can believe in Jesus Christ before regeneration. Of course, baptism then is regeneration. First belief (faith), then repentance (turning from sins), then washing away of sins via baptism.

Now, what role did the Holy Spirit play in causing the ones who believed, to believe? It seems to be obvious that a person still in his sins can be affected by the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is the formal means God has instituted by which our sins are washed away, forgiven. It is the way we ask Jesus to save us. It is the rite God has ordained for us to call upon the name of the Lord. And the power of the Holy Spirit most certainly is behind those who call upon the name of the Lord. Because they have faith in the Lord, they then call upon His name.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi M,

Understand, but *what you are saying is that the old man can believe in Jesus Christ, before regeneration. *Can the old man confess Jesus as Savior without an indwelling of the Holy Ghost, without His power ? Maybe get baptized to formally get your sins forgiven, but not for regeneration. And can the holy Spirit indwell a temple where sins have not been forgiven ? Can one be baptized in the Holy Ghost without sins forgiven (yet Cornelius was).

These are some of the reasons I am careful to assign total effectiveness to a rite.

Blessings

To answer your first question directly: Of course the old man can believe in Jesus Christ before regeneration. To me that is an odd question, because how else can he be regenerated, except by belief?

I guess your second question is, what impels one person to believe and another not? The Holy Spirit? What is your opinion?

For the other questions, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit is not limited by anything.

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless Benhur and Mackbrislavn and every readers of the CAF. **

The teachings of the Scripture and the teachings of the Catholic Church on the subject can help you both and every readers of the CAF to know the correct answers of your questions.

Only need to know the related theological issues about baptism and need the know baptism.

FIRST THEOLOGICAL ISSUE

The first theological issue must be understand is, our inward man (spirit + soul) and our outward man (Body) described in Luke 11:39; Rom.7:14-25; 2 Cor.4:16; Gal.5:16-25; Eph.3:16; 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-57; etc.

2 Cor.4:16;
Therefore we do not lose heart.
Even though our outward man (body) is perishing, yet the inward man (our spirit + soul) is being renewed day by day. In the bracket is added.

Rom.7:22-23;
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man (our spirit + soul).
But I see another law in my members (body), warring against in the law of my mind (spirit + soul), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (body). In the bracket is added.

Gal.5:16-18;
v. 16. I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

v. 17. For the flesh lust against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

v. 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Rom.8:23;
… eagerly waiting for the ADOPTION, the REDEMPTION of our bodies.

1 Cor.15:42-44;
v. 42. So also the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

v. 43. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. …

v. 43. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. …

KEY TO UNDERSTAND

**CCC 2019 **
Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

THE COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 CHAPTER VII
… justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend. …

At our baptism our inward man (spirit + soul) saved/justified/adopted, DECLARED righteous and MADE righteous, we have been become sons of God, while our outward man (body) NOT YET adopted/redeemed.

Still the law of sin resides in our bodies, NOT YET adopted/redeemed and when we die our corrupt bodies goes to the grave in dishonor, and in corruption in an unredeemed state.

But will be raised from the grave as incorruptible, glorious glorified, spiritual bodies at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Thess.4:15-18; 1 Cor.15:51-57.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**SECOND THEOLOGICAL ISSUE

We must understand Baptism, but even before we understand baptism, we must understand our fallen spiritual position.**

OUR FALLEN SPIRITUAL POSITION

a. We are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. We are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. We are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. We are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. We “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: we see it all as nonsense; it is** BEYOND our UNDERSTANDING** because it CAN ONLY be understood by the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14; Rom.8:6-8; Emphasis mine.

To be able to receive anything from the Spirit of God, FIRST we need new spiritual life.
This is sometimes called “Born Again.”

Col.2:13; Explains:
“And you, BEING DEAD in your trespasses … He has made you alive, … having forgiven you all trespasses.” – This resurrection/born again and forgiveness of sins/justification, takes place at baptism.

**BAPTISM OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT
**
In our baptism, there is God’s part to do and our part to do.

God’s part to do in our baptism ALWAYS PRECEDES our water baptism.

This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in understanding baptism.

**GOD’S PART TO DO IN OUR BAPTISM IS OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

GOD’S WORK IN OUR BAPTISM IN FINE DETAILS

The sequence of events of our baptism.**

1. GOD SANCTIFIED us. – At our sanctification God has completely washed us clean, made us holy (our spirit + soul). – 1 Cor.6:11; 1 Pet.2:9; etc.

We may call it the purgatory of our (spirit +soul) as God has completely washed us clean, made us ready to heaven. **– It was an instant event. **

1. God delivered us from the power of darkness and taken us (our spirit + soul) up to heaven, – Col. 1:13; Eph.2:6.

3.** In heaven** God baptized us into the body of Christ, – 1 Cor.12:13, 27.

4.** In the Body of Christ** God RE-CREATED us (from spiritual death, in Christ God made us spiritually alive, – 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.2:1). – At our re-creation God MADE us righteous and MADE us SONS of God and NEW CREATIONS / BORN AGAIN by given us a new heart, given us a new spirit and God put His Spirit into us – Ez.36:26-27; 2 Cor.5:17; 1 Cor.3:16; 1 Cor.6:19.

1. God JUSTIFIED us. – At our justification God DECLARED us righteous and DECLARED us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24; Rom.8:15.
2. In heaven in Christ (our spirit + soul) have been built into God’s Holy Temple. for a habitation of God in the Spirit. – Eph.2:19-22.
3. God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

** “AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.**

Quote: We are inserted into the Body of Christ** by our baptism** and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” End quote.
The above quote taken from a public letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written September 19th 2012

Because it is a MYSTERY we may not yet fully understand the way it is possible that at the SAME TIME our (inner man spirit + soul) is in heaven built into God’s Holy Temple, siting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and it is on the earth as well.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

Our initial justification in our baptism is an instant event, we don’t even realize it and in this work for three reasons we cannot even co-operated with the grace of God.

First reason: In our fallen state, we are spiritually dead and we accept nothing from the Spirit of God. – This is our spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.

Second reason: Our initial justification and born again in our baptism is an instant event.

Third reason: The above work of God takes us to the state of grace.
Until we are in the state of grace we cannot make supernatural decisions or do supernatural merit.

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

**FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination? **

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.

God’s grace appears to all men (e.g.Tit. 2:11), and man’s initial “response” is the omission of resistance, which he identifies as an “ontological zero,” meaning man does NOTHING, to enter the state of justification.

Meaning man does nothing and could do nothing, to enter the state of (initial) justification. – Because spiritually dead at the beginning and the end initially justified, born again and in the state of grace, the whole process is an instant event.

**COUNCIL OF TRENT **
. . . none of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace. End quote.

In the sequence of the events, first God does His part in our Baptism, as the results; we are spiritually alive/born again, initially justified, and we are in the state of grace.

In the FIRST STAGE of our salvation (initial justification): At baptism God puts us into the state of grace, by made and declared us righteous, taken us (our inner man spirit + soul) up to heaven, in heaven have been built us into His Holy Temple, in heaven made us sitting together in Christ Jesus.

Without being in the state of grace we could NOT co-operate with the grace of God because we are spiritually dead.

In the SECOND STAGE of our salvation: God gives us His gift of Formed Faith and we are able to positively respond to it, BECAUSE we are already in the state of grace, born again, in heaven we have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven we are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, AT THE SAME TIME (our inner man spirit + soul) is on the earth as well (in our unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and in spite of that, we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.

**The SECOND STAGE of our salvation: **
The second stage of our salvation is (as God’s elect) from the point God did His part in our baptism until we die.
When we die it is the end of the mystery because we are (our spirit + soul) continue living only in heaven (not on the earth as well) and our corrupt unredeemed bodies goes to the grave.

As we see above the necessity of God’s works in our baptism is absolute.

Apart from God first does His part in our baptism we are spiritually dead and we “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14.

It is SOLELY God’s work and always PRECEDES our water baptism.

**This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in, because at this point: **
We are born again, initially justified, we are in the state of grace, in heaven we have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven we are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, and **we are not yet water baptized. **

Sometimes it is a great distance between God does His part in our baptism and we do our part in our water baptism.

If some reason we are not able to do our part of our water baptism that doesn’t stop God to do His part of our baptism which gives us initial justification, spiritual resurrection/born again and puts us into the state of grace, in heaven we have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven we are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and if we die, the mystery is over, we continue to exist and living only in heaven and our corrupt unredeemed bodies goes to the grave on earth.

And of course God’s part to do in our baptism, always PRECEDES our water baptism.

God bless Benhur and Mackbrislavn and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Hi M,

Understand, but what you are saying is that the old man can believe in Jesus Christ, before regeneration. Can the old man confess Jesus as Savior without an indwelling of the Holy Ghost, without His power ? Maybe get baptized to formally get your sins forgiven, but not for regeneration. And can the holy Spirit indwell a temple where sins have not been forgiven ? Can one be baptized in the Holy Ghost without sins forgiven (yet Cornelius was).

These are some of the reasons I am careful to assign total effectiveness to a rite.

Blessings

God bless Benhur and every readers of the CAF.

As you see above Benhur, Cornelius at that time, already was on the second stage of his salvation.

In the SECOND STAGE of our salvation: God gives us His gift of Formed Faith and we are able to positively respond to it, BECAUSE we are already in the state of grace, born again, in heaven we have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven we are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, AT THE SAME TIME (our inner man spirit + soul) is on the earth as well (in our unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and in spite of this, we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.

**The SECOND STAGE of our salvation: **
The second stage of our salvation is (as God’s elect) from the point God did His part in our baptism until we die.
When we die it is the end of the mystery because we are (our inner man spirit + soul) continue living only in heaven (not on the earth as well) and our corrupt unredeemed bodies goes to the grave.

God bless Benhur and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[benhur]

To answer your first question directly: Of course the old man can believe in Jesus Christ before regeneration. To me that is an odd question, because how else can he be regenerated, except by belief?

I guess your second question is, what impels one person to believe and another not? The Holy Spirit? What is your opinion?

For the other questions, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit is not limited by anything.

hi m,

So there was no regeration, being born again, born of the spirit, born of God, before Jesus walking the Earth? Folks could not be regerated under other previous testaments? I thought this born again thing should have been a basic Jewish teaching, hence Jesus criticized Jewish spiritual leader for not understanding (Nicodemus).

I believe the old man was already born again, like any old testament saint coming under Jewish faith, and now having to receive knowledge of their in the flesh Messiah (like Mary, John the babtist, Zacheus and many others).

 

[benhur]

God bless Benhur and every readers of the CAF.

As you see above Benhur, Cornelius at that time, already was on the second stage of his salvation.hi LR,

Quite an answer…thank you…yes the depravity of man, not being able to produce any good thing, certainly not faith in Christ, without a new nature… ( in my experience I don’t know of anyone saying they were going to get baptized to get “born again”

Yes the two parts…for Paul says the inward new man believes and salvation is sealed with the utterances, confession, of and with the mouth…all by grace…and baptism is certainly at the very least a confession of faith in Christ…gotta go…more could be said …thanks again for your post

 

[mackbrislawn]

hi m,

So there was no regeration, being born again, born of the spirit, born of God, before Jesus walking the Earth? Folks could not be regerated under other previous testaments? I thought this born again thing should have been a basic Jewish teaching, hence Jesus criticized Jewish spiritual leader for not understanding (Nicodemus).

I believe the old man was already born again, like any old testament saint coming under Jewish faith, and now having to receive knowledge of their in the flesh Messiah (like Mary, John the babtist, Zacheus and many others).

Gee, I never heard of that idea. No, there was no regeneration or being born of God before Jesus. My understanding is that is why Jesus came, to provide for regeneration and being born from above. You say that was a basic Jewish teaching? Or that some members of Israel became saints, such as Mary, or John the Baptist, but most of the others didn’t? New idea for me; quite a different concept.

You say you believe the old man was already born again, but how can that be? Because as soon as he is born again, he is no longer the old man.

 

[benhur]

Gee, I never heard of that idea. No, there was no regeneration or being born of God before Jesus. My understanding is that is why Jesus came, to provide for regeneration and being born from above. You say that was a basic Jewish teaching? Or that some members of Israel became saints, such as Mary, or John the Baptist, but most of the others didn’t? New idea for me; quite a different concept.

You say you believe the old man was already born again, but how can that be? Because as soon as he is born again, he is no longer the old man.

Hi m,

Misunderstood …I thought you were referring to Cornelius the gentile, who asked to see Peter as being the “old man”.

There have been different dispensations of Holy Spirit for folks regenerated, since Adam. Of course now we have life more abundantly with the more permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (not temporary as OT). That is not say Adam could not commune with HS .As Christ told the apostles, HS is with you now, but He will be in you later (after Pentecost).

Jesus led captivity captive and took saints, who were held in paradise/hell, sheol, into heaven, upon his resurrection/ascension. I use the term “saints” as believers who are in heaven now. from Adam’s generation to now (OT and NT).

Being born of the spirit, born of God, regeneration, born again are not NT phenomenon. Having a heart after God is OT and NT, and can not be done with “old man”…a spiritual quickening must happen, just like today. The OT carnal man was at enmity with the promises of God, and could not see the kingdom of God, in their present or future.

Blessings

 

[mackbrislawn]

benhur;14757116 Hi m,

There have been different dispensations of Holy Spirit for folks regenerated, since Adam.

“Different dispensations of Holy Spirit.” You mean the Holy Spirit treated different individuals differently, such as Enoch or Elijah? And they were born of the Spirit, and others were not? They remained carnal? Moses?

Of course now we have life more abundantly with the more permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (not temporary as OT). That is not say Adam could not commune with HS .As Christ told the apostles, HS is with you now, but He will be in you later (after Pentecost).

Fair enough.

Jesus led captivity captive and took saints, who were held in paradise/hell, sheol, into heaven, upon his resurrection/ascension. I use the term “saints” as believers who are in heaven now. from Adam’s generation to now (OT and NT).

All right. Are those OT figures who were regenerated included among these saints?

Being born of the spirit, born of God, regeneration, born again are not NT phenomenon. Having a heart after God is OT and NT, and can not be done with “old man”…a spiritual quickening must happen, just like today. The OT carnal man was at enmity with the promises of God, and could not see the kingdom of God, in their present or future.

Okay. Did the Sadducees accept this idea? Or the Pharisees? Or is this a retroactive reading of new covenant concepts back into the old covenant?

 

[benhur]

benhur;14757116 Hi m,

“Different dispensations of Holy Spirit.” You mean the Holy Spirit treated different individuals differently, such as Enoch or Elijah? And they were born of the Spirit, and others were not? They remained carnal? Moses?

Fair enough.
All right. Are those OT figures who were regenerated included among these saints?

Okay. Did the Sadducees accept this idea? Or the Pharisees? Or is this a retroactive reading of new covenant concepts back into the old covenant?

Hi m,

Would u agree most of the Lord’s ministry as found in gospels is operati g under old covenant.

What is born of the flesh is flesh, what is born of the spirit is spirit.

Peter, under t the old covenant, confessed Jesus as Messiah, from his inner spiritual man, and not from the flesh, having been spiritually received from the Father.

So not sure what Pharisees etc taught but Nicodemus the rabbi was to have known this. Jesus does not say this is a new teaching otherwise he would not have chastised Nicodemus for not knowing…but you would chastise if it was something" old", even unchanging.

Yes, the OT testament saints must have been regerated spiritually, for certai ly it was not their freshly or carnal man that entetered heaven The basis for any reconciled spiritual life is Calvary.The OT, from Adam onward looked forward to Calvary , just as you and I look backwards to Calvary for said reconciling, spiritually received and believed.

As far as HS dispensation it is always without respecter of persons, and only meant different linear historical modes of operation and did not mean treat I g saved or unsaved differently per say.

Blessings

 

[James248]

What does Scripture has to say about this?

Acts 22
14 Then he said, ‘The God of our ancestors designated you to know his will, to see the Righteous One, and to hear the sound of his voice; 15 for you will be his witness[a] before all to what you have seen and heard. 16 Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’

Romans 6
3 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Titus 3
But when the kindness and generous love
of God our savior appeared,
5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done
but because of his mercy,
he saved us through the bath of rebirth
and renewal by the holy Spirit,
6 whom he richly poured out on us
through Jesus Christ our savior,
7 so that we might be justified by his grace
and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi m,

Would u agree most of the Lord’s ministry as found in gospels is operati g under old covenant.

What is born of the flesh is flesh, what is born of the spirit is spirit.

Peter, under t the old covenant, confessed Jesus as Messiah, from his inner spiritual man, and not from the flesh, having been spiritually received from the Father.

So not sure what Pharisees etc taught but Nicodemus the rabbi was to have known this. Jesus does not say this is a new teaching otherwise he would not have chastised Nicodemus for not knowing…but you would chastise if it was something" old", even unchanging.

Yes, the OT testament saints must have been regerated spiritually, for certai ly it was not their freshly or carnal man that entetered heaven The basis for any reconciled spiritual life is Calvary.The OT, from Adam onward looked forward to Calvary , just as you and I look backwards to Calvary for said reconciling, spiritually received and believed.

As far as HS dispensation it is always without respecter of persons, and only meant different linear historical modes of operation and did not mean treat I g saved or unsaved differently per say.

Blessings

Hi b,
Hmm…no, I guess I don’t agree. I haven’t thought of it that way. I think of Jesus as teaching in anticipation of the new covenant, and preparing the way for the new, even though the old covenant hadn’t been yet officially replaced.

Peter confessed Jesus as Messiah not because he was told about it from someone else, nor because of his own human logic, but because the Father imbued him with that realization. Whether or not Peter was spiritually regenerated at that time, is that relevant? Because God can influence even those not regenerated.

In regard to Nicodemus, my thinking is that Nicodemus actually didn’t know it, and really wasn’t expected to, because he didn’t know any more than what was taught to him to begin with, which wasn’t about being born from above. No rabbi knew this. Jesus’ acting surprised and seemingly chastising Nicodemus was a rhetorical device to emphasize the need for spiritual rebirth from above, which was something Israel hadn’t realized, but perhaps should have. Nicodemus in this case acted as a representative of the ignorance of Israel. He took the rebuking for them.

Sure, the old testament saints were regenerated spiritually when they finally entered heaven, which wasn’t until heaven was opened by Calvary.

 

[benhur]

Hi b,
Hmm…no, I guess I don’t agree. I haven’t thought of it that way. I think of Jesus as teaching in anticipation of the new covenant, and preparing the way for the new, even though the old covenant hadn’t been yet officially replaced.

Peter confessed Jesus as Messiah not because he was told about it from someone else, nor because of his own human logic, but because the Father imbued him with that realization. Whether or not Peter was spiritually regenerated at that time, is that relevant? Because God can influence even those not regenerated.

In regard to Nicodemus, my thinking is that Nicodemus actually didn’t know it, and really wasn’t expected to, because he didn’t know any more than what was taught to him to begin with, which wasn’t about being born from above. No rabbi knew this. Jesus’ acting surprised and seemingly chastising Nicodemus was a rhetorical device to emphasize the need for spiritual rebirth from above, which was something Israel hadn’t realized, but perhaps should have. Nicodemus in this case acted as a representative of the ignorance of Israel. He took the rebuking for them.

Sure, the old testament saints were regenerated spiritually when they finally entered heaven, which wasn’t until heaven was opened by Calvary.

I can only add that Nicodemus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah but only another rabbi or teacher…why did he not believe while other Jewish folk did, as Jesus says to Nicodemus outright?..Some people were seeing the “kingdom” and some were not…and Jesus tells us and them why…they were not born again, born of the spirit…they were carnal only

As for Peter, are you saying he was only carnal, only born of the flesh, and still spiritually dead, when he uttered Jesus was the Christ?..I mean he was water baptized we assume

 

[mackbrislawn]

I can only add that Nicodemus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah but only another rabbi or teacher…why did he not believe while other Jewish folk did, as Jesus says to Nicodemus outright?..Some people were seeing the “kingdom” and some were not…and Jesus tells us and them why…they were not born again, born of the spirit…they were carnal only

As for Peter, are you saying he was only carnal, only born of the flesh, and still spiritually dead, when he uttered Jesus was the Christ?..I mean he was water baptized we assume

Okay, so my take on this episode is different.

Yes, Nicodemus, along with other Pharisees, realized Jesus was special, from God, by what Jesus had done. But, of course he did not realize Jesus was the Messiah. Now, I don’t see how we can infer that others like Nicodemus* did* think Jesus to be the Messiah.

But again, because Jesus refers to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel, Nicodemus stands in for Israel as a whole, and Jesus is here letting it be known that Israel as a whole has a need to be born again. (Because Jews thought that they, they, being Jews, did not need the additional birth. So, this is news to them!)

Now, are you saying, in the part I underlined above, that some of the persons who heard Jesus’ word, saw the kingdom and then some not, was because some were already born from above and some still carnal? That’s why? That is quite a new idea. Because Jesus acts as though Nicodemus and his other Pharisees should have known, even while they were still carnal.

Scripture does not mention of Peter or of the apostles being baptized, nor mention when they became born from above. We do assume they did at some point, which is not told in scripture. And whether or not Peter was carnal when he was informed by the Father that Jesus was the Messiah, we can only form opinions. Is whether a person be carnal or not a precondition for being taught by God?

 

[Nicea325]

I prefer Scripture to stand on It’s own but OK.

Irenaeus, "Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”, Against Heresies 5.29

Cyprian, “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”, Treatises of Cyprian

Ephraim The Syrian, ““Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.” , On The Last Times 2

I admire your efforts to use the church fathers;however, to try to use their works to support the rapture is absurd. Non-catholics always try to quote the church fathers by misquoting their works or by taking them out-of-context. More important, those who quote the church fathers trying to prove a non-catholic belief or doctrine also flat out ignore the facts the church father also supports a vast array of Catholic beliefs and doctrines. Why don’t you quote Irenaeus Catholic positions or beliefs? You quote was suits you only. Sorry, but that is not how it is done by proof-texting a few select words.